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NX6 Move Object & Transform

NX6 Move Object & Transform

NX6 Move Object & Transform

(OP)
As a UG user since the 80's, it was hard enough to keep from reaching for the Transform button to move or copy, but why couldn't NX keep the move/copy pick choice at the end?
Countless undo's because the last one was set for copy, or trace lines, or 12 copies when intention is a simple move etc.

The one thing I would wish to change (back) is to choose move or copy as an entry complete rather than return what ever I did the last time, and maybe default back to one copy & no tracelines.

Sorry, just venting, but a lot of time is wasted checking the list before completing a simple move or copy, then breaking my train of thought having to undo and set it up again.

-ph-

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

If you would like to have your dialog return to the default options, just hit the 'Reset' button after opening the dialog but before you start any selecting.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
NX Design
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

I totaly agree with Phayden, NX6 has no longer the possibility on board to make multiple move's or copy's just by simple mouse clicks. This makes transform in NX6 less intuitive and it's a big step backwards in my opinion. Restyling the transform-menu was definitely necessary and now it's improved in many ways, It's just such a pity the developers did'nt maintain this valuable functionality.

Erik van Diepenbeek
Zebra-cad 3D services
The Netherlands
www.zebra-cad.com
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

My only complaint is that many of us NC programmers do quick and dirty construction curve geometry for tool containment. The method has been something like: extract curve / control-t to where you need to boundary to be. That 3button default for Move is not as smooth (at all) that said I will create a short cut I guess.

--
Bill
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Workaround.....AMEN ! Now to find one. And to find one for the step backwards line tool

Kirk Alderfer
Technical Cartoonist
Engineered Fabrics Corporation
Rockmart, Georgia

"Imagination continually frustrates tradition, that is its function." -John Pfeiffer

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

(OP)
I finally got used to choosing move instead of transform, but I still get caught with a copy 10 instances instead of a move. Can someone at least fix the edit feature in part navigator to change that copy to a move etc.?

And while you're at it, retain the geometry (like the old transform) so that I can move it again in another axis without having to re-collect the geometry?


-ph-

"Anything's possible. Just change the equasion."  

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

NX6 took Transform away?  How depressing. It was the only quick tool left.  I am starting a new company and was seriously considering NX6, but if every tool is going to be a lot of effort, then Solidworks is sounding better all the time...

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Can someone at least fix the edit feature in part navigator to change that copy to a move etc.?

What 'Copy' are you talking about?  The 'Copy' to the clip board or some other 'Copy'?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

John,

I just got off the phone with our local support person, Rob Cohon, and he told me that to incrementally move an object you would set the snap increment and drag it. However, he did not find the generic point menu allowing one to move the object to any point using the 10-key pad.  I am now worried that you have to now use the "selection intent manager" to turn on and off origin and destination point - a very cumbersome method at best! If I want to rotate that same object, it wasn't clear as to how to rotate it about some arbitrary coordinate system.

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Are you talking about moving objects or components?

And what do you mean by using the 10-key pad?

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

I am talking about moving objects within a file.  The ten-key pad allows quick access to the generic point menu, so I can quickly move an object from, say, a control point to a point on an arc.  Also, in the "old" Transform, you can incrementally move an object simultaneously in X, Y, and Z directions.

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

NX now uses primarily the Snap Point toolbar, which you can set-up as you wish in terms of which point methods are active, when using the 'Inferred Point' method.  Granted, you can't use the 10-key pad to navigate the settings, but support for the old-style PFK-like dialogs is all but gone from NX after many years of evolving away from thinking that lists of numbered options on a series of cascading dialogs makes for an easy to use interface.  That might have been true 25 years ago when the alternatives were either typing text-based commands on a keyboard or selecting functions from data-tablets with hundreds of multi-colored squares, but that is not what people look for today in a modern CAD system.

As for the 'Delta X,Y,Z' method of defining how much to move an object, that is being added to Move Object in NX 6.0.2.8, which will be released very soon.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

(OP)
I understand a little more now after playing with it...(6.0.1.5)
'Move Object' moves/copies fine when using Dynamic.
You can move in x, drag or type in value, then Y, then z without re-collecting objects.

When moving or copying with distance, you must apply each move along a vector. Once you apply, you then have to re-collect the objects to move in another direction.

The change coming in NX 6.0.2.8 is to keep objects collected after apply? (like transfom to move again in another direction)

Is there an edit parameters option to change it from a move object to a copy object or visa versa in the works?

Thanks John...
-ph-

"Anything's possible. Just change the equasion."  

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

There already is an option to create non-associative 'copies' (if you wish to create associative copies, use 'Instance Geometry' instead).

And NO, we have NOT modified the behavior of 'Move Object' relative to retaining the selection of the moved object, except when using the Dynamic method, which covers move along an axis, rotate about an axis and move to a selected point.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

As far a Transform is concerned, I just brought some spline artwork into NX4 that I needed to scale to fit an area on the surface on a plastic part. Transform-scale sure worked nicely, incrementing the size by 5% with each middle mousebutton click.

It sounds like there are some radical changes to geometry manipulation in NX6, and as a result I will be getting NX6 on my computer as early as tomorrow to do an evaluation of this new functionality.   

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

If you want to move objects just like the old transform did use the stretch command.  Hope it will not become extinct too soon.

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Stretch is a fast and wonderful tool, but it doesn't have Scale, rotate about a point (from a point and to point), reposition, etc.  I am deeply concerned about the elimination of Tranform.  Whatever tool that might replace it has very big shoes to fill...

I won't be getting my eval seat of NX6 until Monday, so hang tight for my feedback on this topic...

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

(OP)
abboberg...

NX6 has the best combination of features EVER. Transform and Move Object have seperate icons & function differently.
Transform still scales, mirrors, arrays etc., it just doesn't move or copy any longer.

Move Object is COMPLETELY different in its pick and options than Transform, but has much more options than transform had.

You'll love it... especially the Synchronous Modeling.
I blow away my parameters & keep going all the time.

-ph-

"Anything's possible. Just change the equasion"

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

PHayden:

Thanks for the words of encouragement!  I have been using the "dynamic modeling" method for 25 years now.  History-free conceptual modeling before "locking down" sketch-driven solids has for me been the ultimate productiviy tool in design.  I will still have to shake NX6 out in the demo seat (which I still haven't gotten) to be sure that something isn't left out...

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Well, I got NX6 running and just spent 40 minutes trying to move objects around.  I have not found a way to Transform-move and keep the object selected - it makes me start over every time.  So much for "sneaking up" on stuff with conceptual modeling.  I'll also be looking for a work-around on this one.  The problem will losing the selection each time you move something is compounded by the fact that there are no longer menu accelerators available to access the move criteria, such as point-to-point moves, point sub-functions - all I can find on the pallette are the extrememly slow drop-down menus.  Anyone found any work-arounds for this?

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

If you use the Dynamic Motion option (which is the out-of-the-box default), you can perform incremental movement in the direction of any of the drag handle axis, rotation about any of drag handle axis, point-to-point using the drag handle origin, alignment using the drag handle axis, etc. and you will be able to perform as many of these motions as desired WITHOUT having to reselect the object(s) being moved.

As for the "extremely slow drop-down menus", starting  with NX 6, virtually EVERY drop-down menu found inside one of the new style dialogs, you now have an option to see those options as either a drop-down menu OR as a small panel of icons (toolbar) of the most commonly used options instead, which means that if you tend to only use a couple of different methods, these will be the ones always available, using a single pick, if you turn this option on.  Note that this is controllable by the user on a dialog by dialog basis and the settings are captured by dialog memory.  To change any dialog drop-down menu to a 'panel' of icons, just open the drop-down list and select the last option, 'Show Shortcuts'.  Later, you can return to a drop-down only scheme, by selecting the 'Hide Shortcuts' option.

Also note that in NX 6.0.2.8, we have made several improvements in the way some of the options are labeled and how they work together as well as adding an explicit 'Delta X,Y,Z' Motion option, which will support entries relative to either Absolute space or the current WCS, although if you're creating an Associative move, the Parameters (Expressions) created will be relative to the absolute frame of reference since that is the only scheme used by the database for any 3D data points/distances.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

John Baker said, "...OR as a small panel of icons (toolbar)".

True - but you only get 4 at a time.

 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Well, I spent a bit of time with 3 different GTAC people to get to the bottom of the Move Object function in NX6.
In this example I am attempting to rotate a bunch of objects around and arc center, then changing to rotating them via the three-point method:

> Edit object display (change color of items to move beforehand
> Ctl-Shft-M to enter "move Object" dialog
> Pick the objects that were re-colored
> Move eyes to dialog box to scroll down to "Dynamic" mode
> Check "move handles"
> Move eyes from dialog box to model to drag and slide origin of active CSYS. -continued
> Move eyes back to dialog box to uncheck "move handles"

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

...continued from last post
> Move eyes back to model to click on proper csys "ball"
> Zoom in to view motion
> Mouse over to register to type in an increment to move
> Hit enter button multiple times until object is moved to the right position
> Move eyes over to dialog box and mouse to "apply"
> Re-select objects that had the color change (now you know the reason - NX6 does not "keep" the selection.
> Move eyes back to dialog box to scroll down to "Three Point Method"
> Start picking points and changing selection intent by taking eyes off model and toggling on and off various points
> Scroll down to deep menues for any points not appearing on intent manager toolbar.  continued...

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

I think this speaks for itself.  Without trying to hijack this thread, I want to briefly review what would be done in NX4/NX5:
> Ctrl T
> Pick Objects, middle mouse button when complete (eyes on model)
> 10-key pad 3-7 (eyes still on model)
> Pick arc center
> enter angle increment in default pop-up
> middle mouse button until objects reach destination
> shift-middle mousbutton (back)
> 10-key pad 3-2 (two point method) - eyes still on model
> select 3 points and move

In summary, NX6 - 16 steps, 6 back-and-forth eyeball moves
            NX4/NX5 - 9 steps, 0 back-and forth eyeball moves   - continued

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

I am very disappointed that all of the menu accelerators have now been deleted from the dialogs.  I am guessing that 90% of all design activity occurs within these dialogs.

My only question to the NX6 developers is "why"?  Why couldn't you keep the accelerators there?  Clearly, the back-and-forth eye movement, the broken up flow, the "scroll-downs" and lack of object retention has severely impeded day-to-day productivity in the "move object" function.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Sorry - I left mousclicks out, here is how the work analysis should read:


Nx6 - 16 steps, 6 back-and-forth eyeball moves and 17 mouse clicks
NX4/NX5 - 9 steps, 0 back-and forth eyeball moves and 5 mouse clicks.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Let's see, 12 key strokes, divided into the number of key strokes it took you to write these past several comments.  You should break even sometime next week winky smile by which time the latest MR will be out, NX 6.0.2.8, which has several improvements for the Move Object command.

Now I'm not claiming that we've addressed all of your issues, but we have responded to many of the issues we did get early feedback on and we feel that things are now better in terms of usability.  However, that being said, despite what you've claimed, the old Edit Transform code was some of the oldest in NX as well as having perhaps the worst user interface design left in the product and anyone trying to use it for the first time would not be impressed that he was using a modern up-to-date CAD package.  It was based on a menu style and an interaction scheme that was introduced during an era long before Windows came on the scene.

I'm sorry, but you need to take the changes made to any one functional area in the context of what's happening with the rest of the product since consistency and common tools are always a desirable goal.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

I have installed NX6 next to NX5 and for me it's so important to have the possibility to make multiple move's or copy's just by simple mouse clicks that i am not going to work with NX6 until Siemens fixes this issue.  For conceptual modeling it's one of the best tools NX5 (and earlier) has on board even if it's not dynamic or has an old interface, it's functionality counts for me.......

Erik van Diepenbeek
freelance design engineer
www.zebra-cad.com
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Let me repeat, there are NO plans to alter the behavior of the NX 6 Move Object when it comes to the issue of whether selected objects remain selected AFTER the function has been completed.  We have moved to an interaction model where we are depending more and more on dynamic operations utilizing previews.  In these situations, the effect is to allow the user to continue to refine the operation of the function without having to reselect the objects of interest until he achieves his final desired result, at which point he confirms it by either selecting OK or Apply.  In either case, the task is OVER.  This is the normal and consistent behavior found in virtually all of the rest of NX.  What you are seeing in the old legacy 'Edit Transform' was ONLY implemented in that way in an attempt to make what was otherwise a very difficult and clumsy workflow work at least a bit more efficiently, but it was NEVER intended to be a role-model for the general behavior of a modern CAD system.

So if you're wish to wait until we change our minds, that's your choice.  But we are spending our development resources on other much more important projects intended to provide benefits to as wide a set of customers and users as possible, not focusing on how to preserve obsolete and out-dated behaviors while trying to keep our products both competitive and easy to learn and use.  To expect us to do otherwise would be naive at best.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

J.B. said "not focusing on how to preserve obsolete and out-dated behaviors while trying to keep our products both competitive and easy to learn and use.  To expect us to do otherwise would be naive at best. "

I guess the TASK IS OVER when the CAD system decides, not the designer decides...

I'm sorry, I thought I was done here and made my point.
Maybe we all have to step back a little bit and review what the purpose of CAD is. I remember using the rotary eraser in drafting to make changes.  CAD made this a lot easier.  Now I see UG making even the most basic moves very complex and time-consuming. You have Bigger things to work on? What could be more important the "move object"?  continued...   

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

I understand your need to appeal to a wide customer base, and from my experience, that is the edict of big corporations, like Siemens. Market share must be maximized based on the opinion of marketing people.  "Make the interface generic and look good" (menu accelerators have no looks at all).
Yes, you need new customers, but what about existing customers?  Skip my company - what about all the existing users in Detroit - can they really afford such a productivity hit at this time?

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

(OP)
I didn't mean to start a grump-fest when I griped about the changes in the way Move & Transform worked.
I still forget to check whether Copy or Move is checked. Undo.

There are a lot of changes in each major release. Each time I have to think about how do something, it detracts from what I'm doing. My co-workers have heard it with each release, since V5. They also hear the Oooh's & Ahaa's once I 'get it'.

I gripe and complain about having to stop & think about the process, but now that I have re-learned that process in NX6, it is seamless and a heck-a-lot faster than it was the old way.

& I'm too old to learn ProE.

-ph-

"Anything's possible. Just change the equation"
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

abboberg, as a work-around I suggest grouping the objects before you start the move operation. Selecting groups in NX6 is now super easy. I know it doesn't make up for the lost workflow of earlier versions, but it doesn't look like it is coming back any time soon.

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Grouping could re-coup some time (even though it's a band-aid); unfortunately, grouping was one of the first dialogs to lose the 10-kepad capability (I believe in NX2). I must assume it has not been fixed. You see, I never get used to all the slow downs - I vividly remember them as big hurdles thrown in my way each time there was an "upgrade".

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

There are NO plans to even attempt to re-implement any sort of PFK-like, 10-key adder-pad kludge (and I DO mean KLUDGE since the original PFK had 32 buttons) that was put into place some 15 years ago or so when we dropped support for external PFK's.

And for the record, this had been our policy for several years, ever since we started to move away from dialogs which consisted of only option buttons arranged in roughly 'rows & columns' (sound familiar?).  One of the reason that the Edit Transform was still supporting this is because, as I've alluded to on several occasions, those dialogs were using some of the oldest code left in NX.  Perhaps we would have been better off to have just disabled the entire 10-key adder support in one single step when it became obvious that our long term direction ideas about dialogs was no longer going to be able to support anything like this.  At least it would have all come out at once and we could gotten over it long ago rather than letting it die a slow lingering death.



This is a PFK and below is a little tutorial which explains how Unigraphics worked when I first learned to use it some 32 years ago!!!

http://plmworld.org/museum/hall/UGI_exercise_1.htm

Perhaps now you'll better understand now from where some of this legacy stuff came from and why it's called LEGACY and why we would just as soon be done with it once and for all.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Your attempt to embarrass us "nuckle draggers" with an image of a PFK will not work.  Just the other night I saw a partially-disabled man confined to a wheelchair who was forced to use a mouse to type.  He would move the mouse and click on each letter of the alphabet on a screen-keyboard.  

Perhaps the next image you should post is the keyboard itself, because, at the rate you are going, that will also be eliminated as an input device for NX.

 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Since you asked...



...but if it ever comes to past, the role we played will be minuscule compared to some of the other 'players' working on this winky smile

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Me too!  That and the gloves, and I'll be a happy camper.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - Robert Hunter
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Hmmmm - the "mind tapper"....I don't know if I want to shave my head....

Too bad the article didn't have any nuggets for the techies - note the glaring omission of I/O. It makes one question whether the article is a fake...

As far as I know, we have 20 really fast I/0 - fingers and toes.  I would be OK with taking my shoes off if it could double my CAD speed; unfortunately, the world of CAD is migrating to what looks cool to managers...

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

We had at least one of our larger (but not nearly the largest) customer's attempt to develop a voice-activated interface for Unigraphics some years back (it's been some time since I've talked to anyone who was involved in the project).  They were working with someone using voice recognition tools from a company called Dragon (I think they've even had a booth at one of the National User Conferences a few years back).  We also looked into this at the time, but nothing ever came of it, but I did see it demoed once and it looked intriguing.  I think the purpose of the effort by this particular customer was to provide an interface for a couple of employees who were disabled making it hard for them to use either a mouse or a traditional keyboard.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Design Solutions
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Cypress, CA
http://www.siemens.com/plm
http://www.plmworld.org/museum/

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
 

RE: NX6 Move Object & Transform

Like I said before - it all comes down to I/O - just like the days in machine design, this defines a machine's capability.  To give you an idea of how much I/O a human is capable of, just watch my old neighbor Paul Todd (formerly Paul Lagergren) on Youtube playing the organ. Here you can witness the information output capability of the human machine. He uses both his hands and his feet.  If you told him he had to perform his concert with a mouse, I think he might muster enough anger and adrenaline to heave that organ on top of you!

Being forced to use the mouse for inputting all data does level the playing field relative to handicapped people - perhaps that is the purpose of the changes we are seeing...

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