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Need advice on Mistakes
4

Need advice on Mistakes

Need advice on Mistakes

(OP)
Sorry to bug you guys again, but what kind of mistakes are 'forgivable' for engineer a year and half out of college?

Im asking because I keep getting caught up in drafting mistakes.  For instance, the client has a special border they like to use on their drawings, and I didn't use it.  I used another of their borders (looks exactly the same, only difference is the font isn't bold.)  

This drawing has been checked, and double checked, and triple checked, and the checker didn't catch it.  I've been thinking about this since yesterday when the client called, but I know im goanna get it Tuesday when the boss comes back from his business trip out of country.  

I had no idea the other border existed (im not part of drafting, but they have me draft anyways), so I took it from a previous issued drawing and figured it had to be right.  Are mistakes like these normal for a guy out of college, or should I take this as a sign?   

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

If no one had told you to use a different border then that 'mistake' (if it can be called that) is almost certainly excusable.

I have seasoned engineers that do things like that despite having been told to use new formats etc.

Plus that fact the checker didn't spot it/know backs you up.

You did your 'due diligence' by the sounds of it.

Plus, I don't know about your software but with ours changing a background/format isn't too labor intensive.

There are lots of other drafting mistakes that even seasoned people here are allowed to get away with.  

Now if I had my way for more serious infractions there would be corporal/capital punishment...

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Sounds like you work in a sweat shop for an ogre.  Keep your eyes open for a better job.

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Mistakes in the "content" of the drawings fall under "unforgivable" and the guilty shall be punished.  The degree of punishment depends on the amount of money it costs the company to fix the mistake.  For the most part, mistakes are common and it doesn't cost anything to the company.  Treat these like driving slightly above the speed limit.

Mistakes in the "presentation", such as borders, etc. should be forgivable 99% of the time.  Repeated offenses shall be dealt with mild warnings.

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Well, to err is human.  As long as the mistake isn't costly (or too costly in some companies), it doesn't matter too much.  If it is such a "silly" thing as the border, it shouldn't matter.  The key is not to repeat the mistake.

Make a check-list - it should help you in the long run.

HVAC68

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

One thing, make sure some contract document or email chain or something that you were told about/aware of but hadn't fully read etc. doesn't contain the direction to use the new format.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

MasterMaxter,
Those mistakes are minor. A big mistake would be to design a part and have a thousand machined, then find out they are wrong. (I have seen another engineer do this, then was fired).
I agree with KENAT, check with the contracts. Going against them can cost the company $$.
Some people don't see contracts other than marketing/purchasing/some engineers. Ask for a copy.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

As said above, worry more about fit/form/function mistakes than presentation mistakes.  Presentation mistakes should be caught by others, not you.  How did you know of the other border, only when the customer complained?  Is the border you used still valid or is it replaced by the "bold font" border?  Sounds like there might be other process/workflow issues to direct your energy/concerns towards.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

You seem competent enough, skill-wise.  Your anxiety seems to be what interferes most with your performance.

You need to evaluate whether you can handle the stress of your job.  If not, get a new job and/or profession.

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

I would think about what PEinc said, If you are really worried that the boarder you chose being incorrect could cause you to be reprimanded in some real way you may need to find an employer that has there priorities straight.

Luck is a difficult thing to verify and therefore should be tested often. - Me

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

2
"The beatings will continue until moral improves..."
If you are having regular drafting errors, you may need to slow down and ask yourself what it is you are doing when you are drawing?  With this I mean the whole point of what you are doing with your drawing is communicating.  What are you trying to say and how can you present it on plan to increase the success of a proper implementation or construction.  Create a few checklists for yourself, I know, I hate them too but they help you cover a certain basic level of items so you can look for the other thousand things ready to kick you in the gut.

Take your Bosses perspective for a moment, you are likely a relatively expensive employee, training is costly.  If that training is plagued by a perception that it is not progressing, then he could grow frustrated.  This may be evident to you and create a bit of anxiety.  You might consider implementing your own version of an improvement plan take control of you career if you will...  Try making a checklist, general at first like an outline and let it grow as you make mistakes, they should discipate quickly.  Also you are eventually going to be an engineer in charge, PE, and it would be a good time to develop the mind set that absolutely responsible for everything you do...  Set aside time to look at the project once in awhile from a big picture perspective, then go back to the trenches.  There is a lot to learn in the first years of an engineering career but it isn't anything you can't do...  I assume you graduated, you can be taught, you can do it...  Now get back to work before you're taken out back and flogged!!!

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

If you were not aware the border existed then I would say this was the companies mistake and not yours, unless it was laid out that for customer x use border y and you did not bother to look or know this document existed.

Having said that it is still a very small error to make, what is more worrying is you say you keep getting caught out, so maybe something as trivial as this will be the straw that broke the camels back.

I think RVSWA gives some very good and balanced advice, a start for you Sir or Madam.
 

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

2
I must be completely out of touch.  I can't believe what I see in this discussion.

I've spent my career in manufacturing & equipment design so my perspective is NOT from the design side.  You're saying your client flipped out because your BORDER didn't suit him?  Jeez Louise, what a tempest in a teapot.  What an easy thing to fix.

"font isn't bold"  oh fer cryin out loud

Then you're living in fear of what your Boss will say...about a BORDER ?

When I decided to leave the strictly design field, we were in the pre-CAD days, still making ink-on-mylar and had all the oldskool drafting paraphernalia.  Content was King, borders were whatever the drafting supply shop delivered that week.

If you are a CAD-design klutz prone to sloppy errors, then that's a personal problem you'll have to figure out a way to correct before your Boss does.  If this border thing is really a problem, I would hope your Boss shows enough leadership to speak directly with the client, then get you to fix it with a wink.  Perhaps you could "show some management potential" by presenting to Boss a proposal of how to capture all persnickety customer requirements so that they are done in the future.

If your Boss blows his stack over this trivia, then I really wouldn't want to work there anyway.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Yes, take it as a sign......that you're human.
Do all you can to eliminate mistakes, but don't beat yourself up if they do occur, especially a minor one such as that.

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

If its that important surely there should be a master template that is fully approved? Then you just open the template and off you go. Isn't that what modern PC driven offices are about?
ANd are you really being paid whatever it is to spend a disproportionate amount of time researching fonts and borders? surely it is far more productive to have you "engineering" not fussing with "image" issues?  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Don't fall into the trap of expecting a checker to catch your problems.  The fact that a drawing has problems with anything but "form, fit and function" is your responsibility not the checker's.   

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Mistakes you learn from can/should be forgiveable under the right management.  Mistakes you do not learn from are not.  This one would strike me as minor unless there was something significant (aside from a border) in the client's new format (title block information etc).

Regards,

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Our company references in the border on it's drawings, so this would be trivial to correct.  Just change the reference file name.  Don't sweat the small stuff!

Good luck,
Latexman

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Acknowledge your mistake and be proactive about fixing it.  Don't shy away from it.  When the boss gets back tell him, X went out, Y was wrong, we did Z and all is good in the world.  (As others have stated this should be fairly easy if it's just a border.)  Part of being a good engineer is correcting mistakes.  As much as we all want to be perfect in our engineering, we aren't, and we've got to be able to deal with screwing up.
Then I'd follow some of the other advice already given; make some checklists, slow down, and then check everything twice.  I can guarantee that your boss would rather something take 8 hours and be right then take 6 and be full of mistakes.  If you take the time to get the errors under control and do the right things the speed in doing them will come.

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

A few rules I've learned in 10 years looking at drawings:
1.  Take a minute to print something out, look at it just like your client looks at it.  You often see font/presentation things here.
2.  Look not just at what is there but what isn't there.  Mistakes often happen by information that is left off not just shown incorrectly.
3.  Don't ever force a dimension.  Everything should be to scale and it should show it as close to how it is as possible.
4.  Look at it again through your clients eyes.  What are the important things to them and are they clear.
5.  Don't be afraid of plain language "Weld all around" or "weld it good" kind of thinking.

Not much help for you now.  But remember, the most important thing I see in my employees is the ability to keep from repeating mistakes.  A mistake can be costly and painful, but it is good training.  Don't let it happen twice.  Yes there are clients who care a lot about presentation, especially where your piece is folded into say a sales brochure.  I can see where if things all look wrong and done by 1,000 monkeys in a locked room on typewriters, it looks bad.

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

I'm with "tygerdawg" on this one.  Here I am worried about a column getting mislabeled and causing a real problem.  Don't see too many collapses from the wrong border on a drawing.

Now spelling the client's name wrong is another story...

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Really?.... I mean really?

My biggest mistake was about 100x that for sure.  That might cost the company 2hrs if you suck at changing borders so maybe $150.  I suppose its a matter of scale since if the job was only $500 it might be percentage wise a big mistake.  I wouldn't sweat it - I'd try and prevent it in the future but if someone gave me more than a little talking to I'd quit.  My biggest mistake was probably a $20,000 error on a $2,000,000 project-  ordering the wrong amount of materials.  I've made bigger mistakes on reno's at home then a border on a drawing.    

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

If that's your biggest mistake, I've got job for ya.  You like structural?

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

I've been trying to deal with my frustrations of AutoCAD and complying with client's requests since I started working about a year and a half ago as well.  I'm not a drafter but I do all the drafting for my projects.

I've gone so far as to plot out "full sized" drawings for an architect (she actually didn't use standard full size drawings so I had to cut each sheet individually) ran them over to her office to get them in by the noon deadline.  She was so happy I got them in because the client was only seconds behind me coming in the door way.  We talked for a bit.  As I was leaving the office she started yelling at me about how I used the wrong border in front of the clients.  I ran back to the office, changed the border, printed the new sheets, cut the new sheets, and ran them back to her.  It seemed like a ridiculous thing to get upset about.  I hadn't even put the borders in, the drafter did so it didn't even cross my mind.  All I could say was "sorry, my mistake, won't happen again."  

I guess the only thing I learned from this was when dealing with clients with their own drafting standards I always have as many people glance it over that might be able to catch something like that before I send it out.  Are these the right borders?  Fonts?  Even if theres no question in my mind, its always what you don't know that'll end up getting you in the end.  If after all that, a mistake still goes out, make a mental note and move on.  Since I'm not a "drafter" I don't get upset about it but I still make every effort to make sure its done right.  I told my boss what happened with the architect and he just laughed, "ya, shes crazy."  If your boss puts the blame on you I'd start asking you how much do you really want that job?

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

The only mistake that is not forgivable is the one that happens again.  You made a mistake, you learned, you move on.

My last manager had a saying that I have really taken to heart.  If your not making mistakes it means you are not trying.  If you make the same mistake twice it means you are really not trying.

I spent over $80K on some equipment to design, build, and install.  In the end it just wasn't working.  I had a few sleepless nights over that one but he took me aside and said it's fine.  You tried something that didn't work.  Go back to the drawing board and try something different.  Learn from what happened and see what you come up with.

I will point out that what happened in that case is very different from making a mistake by not being diligent, but the result is still the same.  It cost the company money.

In the end I learned something, just like you did, and I won't make the same mistakes again.  That's the real point of this after all.  Keep learning and keep moving forward.

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

I will tell you from an employer point of view.

If a worker tells me right up front they made a mistake (even one that costs many thousands of dollars) I let it go and never bring it up again.  You can tell if someone cares and is sorry for a mistake.  If they try to hide a mistake (even one of a few dollars) I let him/her go immediately.

David

 

www.kirkhammotorsports.com

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

If its only a paper mistake I would not sweet it. Paper is cheap.

 

Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day  

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

Seems like it's all about the "sizzle", not the "steak" these days.  

RE: Need advice on Mistakes

every mistake is forgiveable... ONCE! big smile

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