Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
(OP)
State statues require Engineers to have "responsible charge" over drawings they sign and seal. What does this mean to everyone? I have researched this but am having a difficult time coming across a specific response.
At my firm it is not uncommon to have employees without their professional license heading structural projects. An EOR is brought in at 100% construction drawings to quickly review (15 minutes or less) and sign and seal the drawings. (He/She may be involved during the kickoff and/or consulted when questions arise, but otherwise they are not involved on in the daily design process) Does responsible charge include believing that your employees are adequately trained (even if not professionally licensed) and trusting the systems your company has put in place to prepare drawings that are safe for public use?
I greatly appreciate all your input.
At my firm it is not uncommon to have employees without their professional license heading structural projects. An EOR is brought in at 100% construction drawings to quickly review (15 minutes or less) and sign and seal the drawings. (He/She may be involved during the kickoff and/or consulted when questions arise, but otherwise they are not involved on in the daily design process) Does responsible charge include believing that your employees are adequately trained (even if not professionally licensed) and trusting the systems your company has put in place to prepare drawings that are safe for public use?
I greatly appreciate all your input.





RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
Good legislation, standards etc requires that the language is more precise but, of course, lawyers were probably responsible for the wording in the first place.
In other words, it is whatever the lawyers want it to be, it doesn't matter what so long as any two lawyers can disagree at hourly rates and your expense.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
I'd like to know a CPA that would look my tax statement for 15 minutes and sign it.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
15 minutes is "NOT RESPONSIBLE CHARGE" unless that 15 minutes is just a final check of the work he closely supervised all along
But I doubt it
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
If stuff don't work, or something falls down, then "responsible charge" means it's your fault.
It's your fault if you did the work yourself.
It's your fault if you reviewed someone else's work and missed a flaw.
It's your fault if you put your stamp on something you never looked at.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
IMO this quote from RMRMBJ above, note the key word "embodied", "the professional skill and judgement of the engineer of record be embodied in the documents he or she certifies", in which I believe a rather substantial effort is implied.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
In the event of "Something doesn't work" is there a difference between the following three responses:
1. I did the calculations, but I made a mistake.
2. I throughly reviewed someone elses work, but I missed it or looked at it and thought it was ok.
3. I only briefly reviewed and didn't notice. (I may or may not have caught the mistake if I throughly reviewed or did it myself)
The truth is, yes, it doesn't really matter why the mistake happened - its still your fault because you are the EOR. However, I'm assuming you would feel much differently if you made a mistake for reason 1 or 2 versus 3. Do you have an ethicial responsibility to do 1 or 2?
In the third option you are making a clear decision to not at least look for a mistake. (Regardless if it is something you would have caught)
What are your thoughts?
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
I'm not sure why you would feel differently, especially if someone was injured as a result. OK at least the first exhibits some good intent, the second is a case of inexperience, if you thought it was ok, but oversight if you didn't notice, which at least is an absence of malintent. In the third case, you originally stated it as what I would consider an oversight alone (without malintent), but later say its a concious decision not to perform, which I would have to consider as malintent.
You have the ethical responsibility to do or review calculations, when in your considered opinion as a PE, such calculations are beyond the level at which you are competent to say "approved by inspection" and are thus required to prove the technical acceptability of the design by calculations.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
1 and 2 are most likely covered under your "errors and omissions" insurance.
3 would most likely be construed as negligence by anyone suing you and by your insurance company - in which case you are probably on your own.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
My take is that everyone working for the one in general responsible charge should be consider an extention of the one in charge. When a member of the team is technically superior to the one in responsible charge and divert the general direction of the project, responsible charge is lost. Members of the team may influence the decision making process of the engineer in responsible charge but shall not be in full control.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
The problems I usually see with this are the following:
1. People who hold the above point of view many times have 'partner' or 'CEO' as a job title. I sometimes see a conflict of interest when it comes to signing and sealing drawings when you have this title. Being involved in day to day issues of projects take time - partners usually have 'bigger' items on their mind like getting the next project in the door or maintaining client relations. Therefore, their decision to not be involved can be seen as more of one due to economics.
2. How do you know when your staff is adequately trained that you don't have to check certain aspects of their work? (I believe this is the question RVSWA is asking) Even if you have set clear processes and procedures for quality - there is still a chance they could make a mistake or miss something based on lack of experience or education. Does this "trusting" in others work fall under responsible charge? If there were ever a life safety issue - would you feel confortable stating you chose not to be involved because you 'trusted' the work of those beneath you?
3. Do you think non-signing engineers will review drawings as closely as they woudl if they were the EOR? From my experience, I would say no. With tight deadlines and falling feels things can get rushed out the door. Its a lot easier to push something out the door that doesn't have your name on it.
Great comments everyone. I've discussed this topic with management at my company and they gave a response similar to RVSWA. Responsible charge for them is the fact that they have established processes and trained staff to a point they consider responisble charge is taken.
I greatly appreciate all your input.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
Maybe things are different here in Washington.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
We didn't say anything about Designated Engineer. S-Corp's are required to designate an engineer in their Certificate of Registration, PS Corp's don't have to, and Partnership's have been exempt for sometime now, Sole-proprietorships are simply engineers in responsible charge... in Washington. Designated Engineers are ultimately responsible for all the engineering services provided by a corporation. I believe what The Badger is saying is that when a company grows to a certain size, it's principals may have duties that conflict with their ability to constantly provide responsible charge. I think you asserted this point yourself. So should each Licensed Engineer in responsible charge of engineering projects within a Corp be designated in the Certificate of Registration? I can't find anything suggesting this plurality, in fact is says "...designate a person holding a certificate of registration...". So it seems that for a large company, the only way a single Designated Engineer has to ensure the quality of service coming from their company is through policy, training and reviewing representative samples. Should they be stamping drawings? If they can provide responsible charge I'd say yes, just so long as it doesn't take them away from ensuring a large group of engineers are doing their best work.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
If asked to do something like this I am basically willing to advise on a limited liability basis, usually limited to my contract value and covering only strictly strictly defined parts of the design. I would not formally sign off anything I hadn't had sufficient time to check in enough depth to be confident of.
We don't have the same licencing system in the UK though.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
Texas Engineering Practice Act and Rules
SUBCHAPTER F: ADMINISTRATION
§131.81 Definitions
(35) Responsible charge - An earlier term synonymous with the term "direct supervision"; the term is still valid and may be used interchangeably with "direct supervision" when necessary.
RE: Responsible Charge - What does this mean to you?
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering