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No confidence in design
13

No confidence in design

No confidence in design

(OP)
Guys,
Over the last 2 months or so I've had a few times when thinking about designs I've done, about how people could easily die or get seriously hurt, that I've almost given myself a panic attack. I've just had serious doubts about my work and designs and I comfort myself by doing some reviews, etc.

I don't want to suffer like this.

Any help from the older guys?

RC
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Edmund Burke

 

RE: No confidence in design

Are you new at engineering? Just out of school?
If so, 2 months is not enough time to beat yourself up.
It takes time. Give yourself a couple years experience to judge yourself.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: No confidence in design

Assuming you are new to the your field.  Give yourself some time.  Consult with some of the more experienced engineers you work with.  When some of your designs become reality, successfuly, then use those to build your confidence.  Also where mistakes are encountered use to learn and know those won't be repeated.

RE: No confidence in design

(OP)
Thanks for the quick response.

I'm a little over 2 years out. The reason I'm worrying more is that I am doing bigger projects etc.

We are 4 engineers in the office. Our quality control is basically review designs briefly before the boss stamps, and we usually sit down and review stuff with the boss for anything out of the ordinary. I just get myself worked up that I missed some all important piece of information, but I haven't found that.

 

RC
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Edmund Burke

 

RE: No confidence in design

(OP)
thanks,
but I'm structural

RC
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Edmund Burke

 

RE: No confidence in design

Do like I do and brainstorm out loud with your co-workers as you go.  You'll always get a fresh perspective and more than likely catch mistakes or make improvements to everything.  It also is great for learning new things.

I've been in machine design for like 8 years now (and I'm only 26).  It's been a long hard road, but they don't teach this sort of thing in a classroom.  I've seen more "pure" engineers stumble at design because they're not creative or flexible enough.

There's a lot of "art" that goes into this kind of work, and it takes a lot of patience and variety of work to become a good designer.  Having been through a lot of different industrial fields from industrial part washers, material handling equipment, extrusion tooling, robotic system design (including tooling, pneumatics, fixtures, safety, etc), and food processing and packaging.

I've seen all sorts.  Just give it time, and ask a lot of questions!  If you aren't "comfortable" with being alone on the big projects, ask if you can be more of a helper for everyone else and take on the small projects.  You'll find you'll get a lot more variance that way and see much more in a short period of time.

Last of all, just keep your head up!  Have fun.  I get the same feeling at work designing some new contraption that I did playing with lego's as a kid.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

RE: No confidence in design

Hg's response is the key here.  

No engineer should ever release any drawings or other design information until they have been reviewed in detail by another engineer, especially if human life is at stake.  I have yet to find an engineer who can crank out designs day after day and year after year and not evenutally make a mistake.  If your office isn't receptive to this sort of quality control, you need to find another job.

Phil  

RE: No confidence in design

You will definitely gain confidence in your work as you see it successfully become reality.  However, I would caution you to not entirely lose your sense of self-doubt; it will keep you motivated to maintain the quality of your work.

I echo the others' sentiments that peer review is one of the most valuable resources you have.

RE: No confidence in design

(OP)
Don't get me wrong, we do review everything, but typical connections, etc are not reviewed in detail for every job, it is just not wise, in my opinion. I wasn't really looking to turn this into my office's problem.

It is my problem. I was wondering how do you get over this fear/concern?

RC
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Edmund Burke

 

RE: No confidence in design

Not trying to be funny, but you might want to see someone about anxiety problems.

 

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: No confidence in design

RCraine

Quote:

Over the last 2 months or so I've had a few times when thinking about designs I've done, about how people could easily die or get seriously hurt, that I've almost given myself a panic attack...

   Thank you.

   It is the guys who do not worry, who worry me.  :)

                    JHG
 

RE: No confidence in design

8
I guess what you feel is nothing new.

Check out what Herbert Hoover once said about engineering:

Engineering ... it is a great profession.

There is the fascination of watching a figment of the imagination emerge through the aid of science to a plan on paper. Then it moves to realization in stone or metal or energy. Then it brings jobs and homes to men. Then it elevates the standards of living and adds to the comforts of life. That is the engineer's high privilege.

The great liability of the engineer compared to men of other professions is that his works are out in the open where all can see them. His acts, step by step, are in hard substance.

He cannot bury his mistakes in the grave like the doctors.

He cannot argue them into thin air or blame the judge like the lawyers.

He cannot, like the architects, cover his failures with trees and vines.

He cannot, like the politicians, screen his shortcomings by blaming his opponents and hope the people will forget.

The engineer simply cannot deny he did it. If his works do not work, he is damned.

That is the phantasmagoria that haunts his nights and dogs his days. He comes from the job at the end of the day resolved to calculate it again. He wakes in the night in a cold sweat and puts something on paper that looks silly in the morning. All day he shivers at the thought of the bugs which will inevitably appear to jolt its smooth consummation.

On the other hand, unlike the doctor his is not a life among the weak.

Unlike the soldier, destruction is not his purpose.

Unlike the lawyer, quarrels are not his daily bread.

To the engineer falls the job of clothing the bare bones of science with life, comfort, and hope. No doubt as years go by the people forget which engineer did it, even if they ever knew. Or some politician puts his name on it. Or the credit it to some promoter who used other people's money ... but the engineer himself looks back at the unending stream of goodness which flows from his successes with satisfactions that few professionals may know. And the verdict of his fellow professionals is all the accolade he wants.


 

RE: No confidence in design

I've made some boobs in designs, none safety critical that I can think of but certainly errors that had some kind of impact.  There's usually a mitigating factor but still, it annoys me.

For anything safety critical I've always had my work thoroughly reviewed.  In defense my drawings got approved by 3 people after me.  Now that's not to say I slipped all the responsibility onto them but that, combined with the testing we did gave me confidence.

At this job, with a few exceptions, there is at best one other name on work, and that's often more concerned with drawing correctness than function.  It's here I've probably made my worst design, it was presented at design reviews etc, drawings were checked, passed minimal testing but doesn't work well in operation and gives field support issues.  Sometimes I find myself thinking about it late at night, and the improvements I'd make if I were to do it again.

However, it wasn't my idea to assign the job to someone new to the industry, or to give a very tight timeline, or to decide to skip most testing and put it on a revenue tool, or to not allocate any time to incorporate required design changes found during the limited testing...

So I remind myself of this, roll over and go to sleep, eventually.

To help give you more confidence, go over your work yourself as well as having peer review.  Not straight after you've done it but a few days or more later (or as late as schedule permits).

Also there should be multiple checks and balances, not just the person reviewing your drawings but even the person planning the work, ordering the materials, doing the work, inspecting the work etc.  So long as everyone (or at least the majority) are safety/quality conscious mistakes should be limited in impact.

"Unlike the soldier, destruction is not his purpose. " Unless you're a weapons engineer like I used to bewinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: No confidence in design

I've had similar feelings for much of my career. I believe that in my particular case, it is part of my personality. I expressed this feeling once during a job interview, and I got hired. The boss later told me that I was the only interviewee who understood the dangers of the work and that is why I was offered the job.

RE: No confidence in design

I spent a lot of time in various companies' machine shops, welding areas, and inspection. These are great areas to learn about design and processes and will help you have more confidence to design better parts.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: No confidence in design

Interesting use of the word 'bugs' in that Hoover quote.

Yes, I wake up at 3 in the morning and go and make a cup of tea, switch the PC and the radio on,  and run through the design again, usually with a different approach to the analyis. That comes with the territory.
 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: No confidence in design

I think it also helps to (roughly) analyze someone else's similar design, even (maybe especially) a competitor's, to get a sense of the real constraints on the problem that you both recognize, and to find areas where one or the other of you either didn't perceive something as a constraint, or chose to ignore it, or found a subtle way to deal with it.

I started doing it (comparative reverse engineering) consciously when I was writing software for a living, and I kept doing it when I went back into hardware.  It's sort of like getting a design review from a truly unbiased party... not for free, however; it can be a lot of work.

The rubber- stamping process that passes for design review in a lot of outfits today is pretty much worthless for actually refining a design.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: No confidence in design

I guess I am lucky that I usually get to consiter my mistakes in a dark room.

Other times it can be in a room full of people all asking why other people are sitting a dark room.

But the one that concerns me the most is why I can't make things happen fast enough to keep someone from being hurt.
 

RE: No confidence in design

You should not be having these sweats yet.  You are not a Professional Engineer.  My designer gets aggravated when he misses something, but it does not keep him up at night.  However, now that I've been stamping designs for years, I can recall a few times that I've sat bolt upright in bed running calcs through my head.

You should do the best you can and review it with your peers, but ultimately the sweats belong to the person whose name is on the stamp...



If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

RE: No confidence in design

I used to be worried about these things but now I am just more dilligent.

A Professional engineer should not expect someone with 2 years experience to get everything right so if they dont check sufficiently that is their fault.

That said there are things that you can do to minimise mistakes. Get into a sequential procedure when you design things and double check as you go along. Start with the loads then double check them and move on from there.

Also you should always try to keep the design as simple as possible, a simpler design is generally quicker and easier to build and will be easier to quality control.

Don't worry too much about your design mistakes, it usually requires more than 1 serious mistake before it truly becomes dangerous. There are almost always alternate load paths.

RE: No confidence in design

(OP)
I guess I don't necessarily mean no confidence in my design but rather a lack of certainty, mostly cause I'm relatively new. I guess time will help most.

Thanks to everyone who has responded particularly the structural guys who I'm sure have more of an understanding of what I mean.

To the guy who suggested I see someone about anxiety issues, it is not anxiety due to am I going to step on lines on a floor today (As Good As It Gets) but if something I designed is going to kill/hurt/endanger someone. I'd ask you to get some professional help if you believe there is something wrong with that concern.

 

RC
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Edmund Burke

 

RE: No confidence in design

Professionally, I never design right up to the line.  I always try to design in an additional margin of safety, additional load paths wherever I can, as mistakes can be made by anyone.  This approach has saved my a#@ and that of the contractor on more than one occasion, proving the structure stable with a more sophisticated analysis.  

This method is not well suited to high-rise structures, but definitely appropriate for residential and small commercial projects.

Even after 30  years of doing this, I still sleep well at night.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: No confidence in design

In jet engine layout work, the aerodynamic flow path is considered hot; you need to convert it to cold layout in order to design your parts.

I had a boiler plate afterburner test rig that was bolted together rather than carefully welded in near flight weight configuration. I made the mistake of using the hot layout as the working cold layout. Did it make a difference?

On test the articulated flap links for the variable nozzle collapsed, and the rig came back to the factory. I added spacer blocks to make up the difference, and it worked later on test.

My next assignment was in another section of the engine. I worked my way forward to the fan by the time it was all over - ten years later.

RE: No confidence in design

My first job, I was always stress out, I was one year out of school designing cranes... and realized the engineer i was working with was completely incompetent and made gross errors and never really checked my work. Two of his cranes failed their proof test!

Now the probability of me killing anyone is nothing because I did everything buy the book and to code, there are nice safety factors, and cranes are (or should be) regularly tested. Along with this I studied the regs/codes at night after work. I can sleep because of this.

I quit this job because of the negligence of all the people around me, their lack of understanding for engineering, and their inability to consider change.


If the people around you are competent talk to them and let them know your concerns.

If the organization as a whole has major issues. Do everything to the book, trust the safety measures most industries have, get another job.

PS:my wife and friends like that I am not stressed out jerk all the time.
 

Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day  

RE: No confidence in design

RCraine,

I think I understand where you are coming from.

I used to worry a bit at your stage. The problem is that most graduates get thrown in the deep end without being told the 'correct' way to design a whole building.

You either sink or you learn to swim, It wasnt until I started at a company after 7 years experience that someone actually sat me down and explained how they actually designed a building.

This increased my confidence dramatically as there was always the small doubt before that I was not doing it the correct way.

At 2 years experience, do not be afraid to ask lots of questions this is to be expected and is the best way to learn.

RE: No confidence in design

Having doubts, in structural engineering, is a good thing as in thinking of all the possible ways a system/member/joint could fail.  By checking ALL of the failure modes, in due time,  one gains confidence in predicting the failure modes that govern.

It is a shame that many new graduates are not given the proper mentoring and training, most likely due to laziness/ineptness of the senior guys in their firm.  Early in the career, it is extremely important to meet a good mentor that you will remember for the rest of your career.

RE: No confidence in design

Years ago, I was a boiler start-up engineer and we were installing a boiler that was right at the line in pressure/temperature for the manhole cover gaskets that we were using.  By "right at the line" I mean it was close, but deemed acceptable by our design engineer.

Well, during startup, as the temperature gauges started to creep up to the operating point, the steam drum gasket blew.  And I mean BLEW.  It could have seriously hurt someone.

I went back to the specifications for the original gaskets and decided to spec the next temp/press range gasket, which happened to be rather expensive.  Even after the incident during the initial startup, our bean-counters were still up in arms over the increased cost.

....I still shiver at the memory of what could have happened...

The worst part of this was that I felt something was not right (designing that close to the limitations of the gaskets - S.F. of 1, essentially) but didn't challenge the design engineer becuase I was so new.

Never be afraid to ask the question if you aren't sure - even if you think it'll make you look bad.  

Makes for a much safer design and allows one to sleep at night.

RE: No confidence in design

I can sympathize with what you are going through. I hope you never lose that sensation, but use it to help concentrate.
I've been responsible for biological safety design and construction, and as responder. I would rather be responsible for the design and construction than being called in at 4 AM on Christmas and wondering if I (and my friends) will be spending a few weeks in an isolation room (or worse)because someone else did not get upset because their work was crap (and they certainly paid for it, but only financially). Do not let a PE stamp assuage your concerns, look into the design, and understand why and how things work. Until you are ready, someone should be checking your work; by then, you should hopefully have the same fears, but have learned to manage them (or have a gastroenterologist on first name basis). Build on every success, and learn from your failures. I've had more stressful jobs (some of the %@#&* overseas was scary) but couldn't imagine the stress that police officers deal with pulling someone over in remote dark spots on a routine basis, a fireman responding to an industrial site, or a hooker negotiating with a lech covered with scabs). Matter of perspective; it helps to have a sense of humor. Pride in your work will pull you through; if you do not have that pride but still have the stress, find another job.
On the upside, ulcer drugs have improved greatly over 25 years. On the downside, you are young, and may one day have to deal with a teenage daughter. Then, be afraid, be very, very afraid.

 

RE: No confidence in design

3
A few comments and tips from a fellow structural design engineer.  My first comment is that their are way way too few engineers who worry enough.  I find that overconfidence is the STRUCTURAL engineer's biggest enemy.

Tips:
1)  Know your limitations.  Read and research the various items you are working on.  This will help you in understanding where the end of your knowledge base is.  Frequent study will refresh your own self knowledge of your own limitations. If you've never designed a thickened slab then study everything you can get your hands on.

2)  Don't be afraid to ask questions

3) If you don't feel confident than do whatever it takes to give your mind peace.  I don't mean block it out.  I mean keep thinking about the problem until you are satisfied.

4) Train the architect you work for.  After 12 years I'm realizing just how important it is to simplify, simplify, simplify your designs.  Try 3 column sizes max.  Try 5 beam sizes max for example.  Minimize the amount of details a project will require.  Don't be afraid to overdesign a bit.  Simplification in my experience is more cost effective anyway.

5) As someone else said don't engineer down to the Nat's butt.  Never use live load reductions you will need them someday believe me.  

6) When you stop having those moments of panic over your designs please retire.  The guys who don't make tons of mistakes all the time and are totally oblivious just how bad their designs are.  After 12 years I still don't go over 2 to 3 months time without a panic over something or another. So don't stress about being stressed.  Its what your paid to do.

7) If you find that you don't have enough time to adequately design your projects and make money than......
a) raise prices
b) simplify your designs
c) get out of the business

8) If the stress is ruining your life its time to work for someone else or change what you do within the engineering field.

9) I graduated in 1996.  I find that the vast majority of engineers don't receive proper mentoring.  Your going to have to do it yourself.  Saadly this also means learning the hard way sometime.   NEVER USE LIVE LOAD REDUCTION FACTORS.   

10) Before you sign and seal the drawings think of collaspe failure mechanisms such as beam shear failure, column buckling, wall buckling due to axial loads, connection failure.  Use a CSR between 0.5 and 0.8 for these type of failures.  For example a series of bar joist are unlikely to fail. And even if you underdesign a beam for bending it most likely wouldn't fail suddenly.  There would be plenty of warning signs.  So worry more about beam shear failures, and beam shear connections.  When in doubt place a beam or joist on top of the wall versus hanging it from the side of the wall.  Don't be afraid to overdesign connections.  They are cheap in terms of mass and the most likely failure point.  

11) If you had a day were you felt rushed during a series of calcs or simply had a cloudy head then take another look at those calcs.

12)  Before ever doing a calculation draft out the drawings and connection types.  This will force you to really think through the complete load path of the wind or earthquake loads before you begin you design.  Its actually easier to get things right the first time versus having to go back through your OWN calcs and make changes later.

13)  Never lose your sense of curiosity

14)  Sleep

15)  Overdesign your columns....I can't reiterate that enough.  Columns are cheap.

16) The first time you do your calculations right everything out.  When checking yourself do the calculations in your head and force yourself to compute them in a different order or different way.  If they still match your probably right.

17) Avoid nasty project without an adequate budget.  Work with reasonable people.  

18) Wait as long as possible to start the project while still making sure you can finish.  Architects love to change stuff.  This is another reason why it is good to work on the drafting and detailing first before beginning calculations.  Over time your experience will allow you take the dwgs closer and closer to a finished static state before you start your calcs.  Try to avoid having to change your own design.  I find it terribly difficult because trying to remember all the small thoughts you had when you first did the design (the kinds you don't have time to write down) is much more difficult the second time.

19) Don't be afraid during construction to question your own design.  In most cases a simple repair or change can be made to remedy something your nervous about without cost.  

20) Aim small miss small.  If during your design you are worried about thinks like checking your building shear walls for sliding, or column footings  for uplift, or walls for combined tension loads and flexural loads, or designing your roof deck attachments for combined uplift and shear in the same load case then your are going a lot further than most engineers do.  Not only does the aim small miss small idea apply but all the extra time you spent verifying things most other neglect or try to make up for by increasing their factor of safety means you've given yourself more time to actually become aware of a past mistake or error.

21) Here's an easy tip.  As much as possible avoid interuption when performing your calcs.  I find I can flush out most of my error simply by comparing one beam I've designed to one of the others I designed an hour earlier.  Now if days seperate your beam design from the next beam design this will be less likely to occur.  So continuity of thought is critical.  I'm touching again here on the idea that having to make changes later is harder.  

22) Aim for perfection with the dwgs.  Make sure all info required for the contractor to build is on the plans and easily discernable.  In doing this you will reduce the amount of RFI's and time and money spend during the construction phase.  This will allow you do spend a larger portion of a projects budget during the design phase.  This is an investment that really pays.  If your drawings are done well then most of the problems during construction won't be yours but some poor contractor.  I build credit with the contractors on most jobs.  So if there is some minor issue that I've overlooked they will usually gladly mop up the mess for me.  My experience of late however is that no matter how good I do the dwgs or how simple the contractors still find lots of ways to mess things up.  Still its much easier to sleep at night when all the problems are costing someone else money and not yourself.

I could go on but its late now.

Just remember that the most important thing you can do is to be diligent.  Trust your intuition.  If your are nervous then likely more work and thougt is required.  No matter how tired you are or how close the deadline do not lie to yourself or be deceived by these devilish notions:

A)  I'm sure I checked that
B)  boy that will be tough to figure....I'm sure it will be OK.
C)  Its not my problem.
D)  I'm over budget......
E)  We've used that detail for everything I'm sure it will be OK
F)  I'm pretty sure....
G)  I know the answer already no need to do the calcs...
H)  I will do it later
I)  That structure isn't really important
J)  No one else checks this so I won't either.....EHPA buildings actually require more brick ties for the brick veneer for example in many places.   


One more pointer.  Always do the calcs even if you know the answer.  Once you start eye balling your design like the old guys do you will quickly lose touch.  That roof beam that worked for that span last time for 800 ft2 will over a few years time now work for 1000 ft2.  This is a major problem with connection details.  I see way way too many engineers who because they've used this or that standard connection so many times before now think it is applicable all the time.   

RE: No confidence in design

i still have nightmares.  and i think i always will.  comes with the job.  i sometimes put "just in case" steel, too.

LOL.   

RE: No confidence in design

I think the fear is a good thing.  I usually have the most trouble convincing myself that my design is adequate which forces me to analyze everything.  I usually calculate things using as many different approaches as I can find/think of and try to look at similar designs to ballpark dimensions, etc...  My designs are usually checked by someone I don't even know which forces me to think of all possible failure modes and produce clear/concise reports and drawings.

Screw ups are bound to happen but you learn from them and revise your designs and checking procedures.  I imagine a lot of the different code requirements have come from past incidents, just try not to be the guy that adds something to the next version.

RE: No confidence in design

I would add one more item. Just like with this forum, do not be afraid to ask other engineers. Unlike some other professions, it seems (from experience) that engineers are more willing to help each other, and hope they succeed. By the nature of the business, we build on each other's success.

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