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Office Engineers Doing Field Work
18

Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Office Engineers Doing Field Work

(OP)
Do you think it is acceptable to send engineers (salary, exempt) to do field service work?  There is absolutely no engineering/business work to be done at this site.  We are short on field service staff at the moment, and so they immediately turned to the engineering staff to complete this installation.  This is long hours away from home doing work that was not in the job description, that is dirty, dangerous, and office engineers are not qualified to complete.  There will be no monetary reimbursement (besides applicable mileage/meals).  Is this appropriate?  Do you find yourselves in this situation? Is it normal? Thanks!

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I've been threatened with it a bunch of times here, never done it though - they always came up with another plan, sometimes last minute after I'd already cancelled my plans for the weekend etc.  Currently my boss & his boss discourage this kind of thing but who knows when that'll change.  

Other people here get sent abroad several times a year.  Similare issue on the no compensation, expected to travel in 'non work' time, pay yourself and get reimbursed etc.

I don't think it's appropriate or reasonable.  When it's really important I don't have a problem with having to do the trip but the lack of compensation etc. is not my cup of tea.  However, in an 'At Will' situation, it may not be easy to say no, although you can always try to find a new employer.

At my last place we did a lot of in the field testing etc but it wasn't exactly field service.  It wasn't formally compensated but they'd usually find someway of making it up to you, especially if you did it a lot.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

(OP)
Fortunately, this is not over the weekend.  But I agree. I don't mind working late on occasion or travelling to diagnose/fix a problem, but to turn to your salaried staff becasue it's cheaper than paying overtime is, in my mind, ridiculous. There will definitely be no formal reimbursement, but I do hope that this is made up somehow (however unlikely).  They just found out the new guy can turn a wrench I guess.  My mistake for proving that - I shoulda slacked.

I guess they think we just go home, watch tv and drink beer by ourselves every night.  I get frustrated because I like to get my projects done at home, enjoy time with friends and family, and sleep in my bed with my wife.  Even when we're done for the day, they're keeping me from doing what I want to do just cause it's too far away. But maybe that's just me or maybe I'm too whiney. Thanks for listening to my rant and for your responses.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

4
Acceptable?  It should be mandatory.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

God forbid - You might learn something.  Even if it is you don't want to do this the rest of your life.

Once in awhile is a good thing...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Mint - without any compensation for extra hours and/or when it wasn't a condition of employment etc?


If you just mean getting a bit of practical time in is good I agree but having been messed about on this kind of thing by management, for what appear to the the OPs situation I'd disagree.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

(OP)
This isn't the first time it's happened. This is the 4th trip in a year.  None of which required any engineering experience.  I was told on the first one that it was good to see an actual customer site in production. Fine. I'll bite, and it was worth it.  Then the following trips came and they were out of field service staff and lab technicians, and there I was.  I recognize the value of "field trips" but I don't think that using engineers as brute labor (which is what they told me they needed) is acceptable. Far from mandatory.

And Mike, I've busted my arse already in life, more than you will ever know. It's why I finished college. Yes, there is plenty for me to learn. But there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

2
Looks like salaried engineers are cheaper than unionized laborers.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

"Not a condition of employment" - really?  If there isn't a clause that states "any you'll never ever need to go do field work", then this probably falls under the clause that is almost certainly there that says "...or whatever else we need or want you to do."

Travel on your own time - pretty typical for "professional" positions, but not for field service staff - who are typically paid travel time door-to-door.

If they are only going to pay you for 8 hours, go work for 8 hours.

"there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product." - then you can learn about the product.

Yeah, you may be getting a bad deal, but your whining "I don't want to get my hands dirty" attitude is worse.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Right now we have our chemist out in the field acting as an inspector.  But the difference is that the work is relevant to his field; he got to his current inspection certification level on company dollars; and it's a case of everyone, including him, agreeing that this needs to be done on a temporary basis till someone else comes up with a more permanent solution to the inspector shortage.  ("Someone else" let the 3rd-party contract lapse.)  I don't know how hard his arm had to be twisted to get him to do it, but at least he knows that sooner or later this will not be happening any more.  Also, although he's salaried, we get hour-for-hour compensatory time, so he will get to make up the time later.

Many jobs will give an estimated percentage of travel time; if the assumption was desk job, then lots of travel is beyond what can reasonably be expected.  Lots of travel to do something outside one's normal job description is even less reasonable.

At some point "other duties as assigned" crosses the line into abuse; if turning a wrench isn't where the line is drawn, how about wielding a mop for the nightly bathroom cleaning?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

For a couple of years I worked in New Mexico and my family lived in Colorado.  My boss expected me to travel down on Sunday and home on Saturday.  I said "no, I'll leave after starting time on Monday and will head home in time to be at the house prior to quiting time on Friday".  After some back and forth "we" agreed that I was right.  I didn't have a problem working till midnight in the hotel (the bars do eventually get old), but I never once traveled on my weekends (when people scheduled meetings on Monday or Friday I declined, if they really wanted me there they rescheduled).  

My job description didn't include on-site project management, but doing it for a couple of years made me a better design engineer (I rarely spec anything these days that simply cannot be built).  My point is that if they want you somewhere away from home badly enough, there are generally areas for negotiation.

David

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

jut07,

   One of my bosses once threatened to send me up in a customer's helicopter, after trying to adjust some of my stuff.  I guess my response to this did not work.  I have not yet got to fly in a customer's aircraft.  :(

   I agree with MintJulep and MikeTheEngineer.  A certain amount of fieldwork is good for you.

   If the work is dangerous enough to violate work place safety programs, than you have something to complain about.  

                        JHG

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

(OP)
Thanks for the responses.

I guess I've come off sounding like I have not done any field work and don't like getting my hands dirty.  Neither of these are true.  Also, by dirty, I meant that there is more than just dust laying around. Respirators are required.  All PPE has been furnished.

I am simply going out and doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer, and highly qualified installation contractor would do. No engineering work whatsoever. Again, no bonus, no extra pay, no comp time, nothing. Yeah I may sound greedy and harsh, but I think the company is acting greedy in this case.

Is there a line to cross? How far is it? I posted this question here because it is NOT an easy question to answer.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

2
Quite the opposite of your claim, this is THE CHANCE to become an engineer. This chance does not come around often. Jump on it.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

4
DRC1,

Please don't be rediculuous.  I don't understand how you equate "doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer, and highly qualified installation" (and I doubt that last part) to being an engineer.  After years in office and out (up to 750 mile long pipelines as an engineering construction manager), I will not let one of my engineers "carry a piece of pipe", or do any welding, etc.  Qualified for the work is qualified for the work.  A good "pipefitter" is a good pipefitter and s/he cannot be substituted by an engineer, just as I would not substitute a "pipefitter" as an engineer!

IMO the tasks as described are an inappropriate use of resources, probably on both sides of the asile, not to mention violation of any applicable union work contracts and a couple hundred safety violations.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

That's another piece of this.  If the average office engineer wouldn't be qualified for this work (as stated in the OP), but this engineer happens to have done this kind of work in the past, is it right to ask this engineer to do this work when another engineer in the same position would not be?  The person who came straight from high school to college to job gets to sit at a desk, but the person with blue-collar background gets sent out to the (apparently literal) trenches?  Imagine the backlash if an engineer who used to be a secretary was asked to cover the phones.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

A few thoughts:

The word "qualified" brings up the question of OSHA (USA assumed). It would be violation to be performing hazardous work you are unqualified to perform. Tell management they will need to budget for fines, training, or both.

Exemption does not follow a glorified job title, it must go with the duties. The work you describe is not generally considered exempt. Check your HR laws.

Is this a non-union shop? Easily handled if there is a union, just quietly sugest to the shop steward that you are doing their work.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Ooh, good point.  If they have him doing non-exempt work, he's not exempt any more.  Though that's probably tied to a percentage of time spent.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

What good would you be if you couldn't assemble the things that you designed?

V

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

VC66, I've designed a few welded assemblies but am not a qualified welder, does that mean I'm no good?

I've done a few cable drawings but am not a qualified technician to do soldering, does that mean I'm no good?

I've designed lots of machined parts but only have the most rudimentary practical machining experience and am not qualified to run a CNC machine.

I've done drawings of bombs but am not explosively qualified to fill them with explosive myself.

The list goes on.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

You don't need to be "qualified" or certified, but your hands-on exposure to those activities (even if just observing) helps you to design those systems better with an insight into how they go together or perform as a whole.  I think that is the point trying to be made.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

MM, I get your point and agree but in the OP he explicitly says "office engineers are not qualified to complete".

If this is true then surely it's not acceptable.  If he was just going to observe, see how it's done (and maybe lend a helping hand to the qualified staff) even provide some kind of oversight that's one thing.  Doing work he's not qualified to do, and then not getting reimbursment for significant extra hours adds up to a situation I wouldn't be happy with.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

A bad day in the field is often times better than a good day in the office, for me at least...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

What point don't you guys understand?

The OP quotes,

"I am simply going out and doing the work that a pipefitter, laborer"

Seriously, since when is that engineering work?

As for assembling what you design or other imaginary qualifications, how many aerospace engineers here that can fly the *^*&%  space shuttle, properly install o-ring, or fill the tanks with lox?  You can betcha that I don't want to see some geek sitting in the cockpit of the next one I board, thank you very much.  Who thinks pipefitting can be properly done by the average office piping engineer?

I'm all for sending them out for a look-see as a training mission, but if you're charging a client for it, he's sure getting ripped off.  I damn sure wouldn't pay for it.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I think the main gripe is doing non-office work as an exempt employee.  As an engineer or any other exempt employee, you are made exempt so your expertise or skills can be tapped on an as-needed basis, basically allow the company to use you as they see fit.  That's the reality, and the sooner you accept this, the better your day will be.  I'm not saying it is right or wrong.  I would rather do a few tasks outside my job description and work a few hours "extra" than having to clock every break and lunch period, and file for every time I was late or had an appointment.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

KENAT,

I agree with that, but it sounds as if the OP is talking about assembly of parts, not creation of the individual components. If you design an assembly, but cannot assemble (not talking about manufacturing) it yourself then, yes, you are no good. I've seen many assemblies created on CAD that, when the engineer was asked to go to the manufacturing floor, had no idea how to put together his own assembly.

V

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Being forced to do work you don't want to do is awful.

On the other hand, keeping engineers perennially in the office helps to disassociate those engineers from the real world on which engineering is supposed to be based.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

VC66, you can call up perfectly valid assembly processes that you don't necesserily know how to do yourself.

If nothing else for some of the small stuff I deal with here, my fat fingers make some of it a bit fiddly.  The small statured, small fingered, assembly staff are somewhat better.

Your take on it was different to mine.  The things that stood out to me were the safety/qualification issue; the fact that there is alternate field support staff who could be paid overtime but the company refuses and would rather use engineers who don't get similar compensation for non core hours etc; that it wasn't in the job description and that it's by no means the first time it's happened recently.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Big Inch, (and others so inclined)

I am not being rediculous. I am Vice President of Engineering for a heavy construion firm dating to 1843. We design and build all manner of temporary and permenant work. I have a graduate degree in soil mechanics and licences in two states. I am on the boards of two industry associations. How did I get started? Cleaning sewers with a pail and a shovel for $8 an hour. Eventually I worked my way into other assignments, learned to survey and finished engineering.When I got out of school I ran work as an engineer/ asst.super. Despite everything else I have done and learned, my most valuable experiences are out in the field. I do associate trades men with engineers. If I am unsure how to support something or detail a joint, I often will dicusses it with one of our riggers or supers. They have uncanny insight as to how systems and strucures work. Often more so than some engineers.
For years I have heard engineers complain about lack of recognition and compensation. Yet as some one who is on many sides of the issue, I do submit the quality of design has significantly degraded over the years, to the point where as the contractor, we are requested to verify the integrity of the contract designs. Owners feel that designers are more nebulous in their details. This leads to claims by contractors, which in turn leads to further obfiscation of the design. The major reason for this is that there is a deep and wide gulf between engineering and actualization (be it manufacturing or construction) of that design.
I recently hired a design engineer who is an experienced designer. Shortly after starting he was on a barge with a pile driving crew. He loved it.

Jut07
Working in the field you will see how designs are built. You may be shocked. You will learn how to interact with the people who build your designs. You will learn how to interact with clients. There is much to be learned about engineering that has little to do with the engineering you learned in school. Do you think the guy that owns your company got to where he was simply because he was good at analysis? I doubt it. Life has as many oppertunities as you choose to create.

All

Thank you for reading this far. Good night.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Hmm.  " ....  But there is nothing for me to learn on this trip. I don't even deal with this product. "

That smells like someone upstairs thinks you are the obvious candidate to do the next generation of said product, once you understand why it's having problems in the field.

Opportunity is knocking.  Answer the door.


 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Well, I'm so inspired now I think I'll volunteer to go fix one of our tools in the field that's playing up.  

Never mind that I'm not qualified to run the tool and am only familiar with the mechanical aspects on one minor sub assembly which only might be causing the problem.  

At worst I can cause a few $ tens of thousand damage to our tool, take it off line for weeks for repair causing the customer $millions in back log and destroy a few $thousand of their product in the process, which of course may discourage them from buying another tool from us in the process.

Clearly I've been wrong to suggest they send somone from system test/integration that spends all their time working on the tools and is familiar with not just the mechanical aspects of this one sub assembly but also knows how to operate the tool, teach the robot, interrogate the software, is familiar with clean room protocol...

Shame on me, it will be well worth my missing important deadlines on my in office projects, the price of the plane ticket halfway across the world, accomodation, loosing a weekend with my family, having to pay for the ticket and accomodation on my credit card...  

Just so I can see if a couple of screws are too loose/tight and a couple of valves are open properly, assuming I can bring the tool off line in the first place, and more doubtfully bring it back on line and do the required testing to verify correct performance.

I'm off to pack.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

But having done all that, even if it goes horribly wrong, your next tool design will be better.  Maybe even impossible for you to screw up...

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Well apart from my company probably being bankrupt (or at least this division assuming customer requires compensation) and me having been fired/layed off yeah great.

I'm not nocking field/practical experience, it is highly valuable, probably undervalued and should arguably be emphasized more in training new engineers etc.  However I still don't see that is the only, or even major, issue in the OP.

jut07, at the end of the day you can just accept it & learn what you can, or vote with your feet at the first opportunity.  

I'm still concerned by the 'dangerous... not qualified' in your OP but several posters with what I believe to be more experience than I at least some of whom I know to have given good advice before, disagree.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

DRC1,

I wasn't doubting your very impressive qualifications.  I just don't think you thought out your answer to this particular question very well. Perhaps you were just identifying too much with the few similarities this question had to your own background and experience and that clouded the issues.  Placing an engineer in the field to do ENGINEERING work is of course the best way for an engineer to get the most practical experience he can ever get, but to send them out (not as a learning experience) to do field labor (as the OP has stated) is not a proper use of resources.  If you are indeed advocating that practice, company owner, board director, CEO, manager, or not, I think there's still just a little bit you can learn.  I suggest that you should work the month of January as a field laborer (just to make it interesting, at field labor rates), then go back to your office and see what went wrong with your company while you were away.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

(OP)
Thanks again for all the responses. I enjoyed reading them, even the ones I didn't agree with.

Also, it turned out to be not quite as dangerous (air pollution) or long as advertised. That was a pleasant suprise.  Unfortunately, the amount of engineering experience I got was zero.  There was a lot of "get this, push here, wrench that, don't think just do."  That was not as pleasant.

As for building things, I used to work in industrial construction. I know how things go together (not to say there's never anything new).  I also used to be in organizations in college that required a lot of machining, fabrication and assembly.  Again, I'm not underestimating the value of learning a new product. Unfortunately (and I forgot this detail earlier) this product will be discontinued in the very near future.

Back to my original question, how many of you actually go on "mind-numbing" service calls? Is it normal and ethical to bypass non-exempt employees and ask exempt employees to step up and donate a ton of hours? I'm not really looking for supporting arguements either way, just a poll.

DRC1,

You do have impressive qualifications.  I got started by shoveling manure out of barns at $5/hr.  Then I graduated to farm equipment (which was cool to work on) and combined with my billions of hours with my erector set and interest in math and science, I pursued engineering.  I wouldn't pick any other career path.  It sounds like I'm taking a similar path that you took and it seemed to have worked out well for you.  

I've seen quite a few designs by engineer's that I don't think can tie their own shoes.  The designs are obviously flawed and maybe field work (of any kind) should be mandatory.  I don't know.  I do know, however, that I've proven myself as a no-bs engineer who can look at how things "actually" work.  Unfortunately at the same time, I've proven myself as a good wrench turner. Is it fair to make me go on service calls because of that? Do you go on service calls?

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Quote:

Back to my original question, how many of you actually go on "mind-numbing" service calls?
My last job, after the customer goes around in circles with the Service Department, and to prevent losing that customer, exempt engineering staff were sent on-site. This was in the transportation industry where our equipment was used.  There is nothing more frustrating than having to travel out of State, crawl under a city bus parked in the blazing heat in Phoenix, AZ or lay in cold slush in Montreal, CA only to find that the equipment was improperly grounded of to find a cable loose, knowing full well this is one of the first areas covered over the phone.
But even these types of visits can be productive if you make the effort.  I got to meet face-to-face with people I had only communicated with via email or phone.  I got to see their operation, how organized (or not) they were, what their work habits were like.  Its a business culture thing, one more item to file away in your brain for later.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Like I said, I've been threatend with it but not gone.

Some of the other Engineers who actually know something usefull get sent several times a year.

However, in most of those cases it's because it's a special or something so their support is needed.  However, some of it's because some of our field support aint all that.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I get to visit and support people who are clearly not qualified to use the software I write.  Does that count?

- Steve

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

No.  Write better user manuals. smile

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

C'mon.  I find myself explaining fundamentals to "experts" all the time.  Largely by reading from the manual sections that I have written.

- Steve

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Sompting, me too.  The amount of times I ask our field service guys when they call or email in a panic "have you set it up according to section X of the Installation Guide/Troubleshooting guide" and find out they haven't, or don't even know what either document is.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I've even pandered to writing "fundamentals" sections in our manuals.  Very scary.

- What does linearity mean.
- What is superposition.
- What is orthogonality.
- How to work with complex spectra.
- How to work with decibels.

The sort of things "experts" should really know.

- Steve

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

We really don't do service calls, but I do go out to the field, especially at night. We do a lot of work now in January in the Northeast, actually has become one of our buisier months, So I do tend to spend a lot of time out in the field. As I have been told, thats where the money is made. I still hook up, help pour rake asphalt or lay out if that what needs to be done. I expect everyone to do what needs to be done to make the project succcesful, and I am no exception to the rule. Besides, clients are always impressed to see the management involved in the work. Wether or not we do, it makes us look like we know what we are talking about.
I think to answer your question some field labor non engineering work is good for the development of an engineer. I do agree that there is we are not trying to make engineers into riggers or plumbers, but it is good to have been there and done that. Yes not being billable is a cost, but to have engineers who have a sense of what happens to the design once it leaves the office is a good thing. And yes I do believe that hanging around tradesman, you can learn a lot about engineering. But then I believe engineering is much more than anlysis and code compliance.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Sompting, I did the same thing, defined drift, displacement, pretty fundamental things in the metrology business but our field support mix up terms all the time so it's difficult to follow.  In fairness most of it is probably language barrier, and my verbose descriptions probably aren't easy for them to understand but I did put in lots of pictures and gave it to the in factory tech support to edit, they just have never bothered.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

In a now regrettably former position, I got sent out on occasion, after our semi- custom product and our extremely talented field service staff had failed to solve the customer's problem.  My goal was to better understand the _real_ problem, and devise a new variant of the product to fix it.

Most of the customers I met were already very upset with us when I got there.   I was our last resort, and "A Team".

There's no feeling quite like turning a pissed-off billionaire into a lifelong customer.  I really miss that job.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

SomptingGuy,

Not understanding those terms is indicative of an underlying problem.  Are your manuals written in the native language of your users, or are the users simply not qualified in the basic theory they need?  Is it the difference between "users" and "button clickers"?  But these subjects deviate from the thread's title significantly.  Perhaps we should start a new thread.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Our manuals are written in English, but the underlying subjects are universal.  My particular manual describes how to use the software to do things that a user would normally do with test systems.

An example.

NVH "specialist" from a well known OEM emails us to complain that our program is giving wrong results.  Their vehicle has two tailpipes coming out of a rear muffler.  He claims (insistently) that the combined level (at a specific order) should be 3dB higher than the individual levels from each pipe taken in isolation.  So WHY does our program say it's 6dB higher?

The result, I have to put in a section on how to add decibels, explaining the difference between coherent and incoherent sources.
 

- Steve

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Yeah, that's a shocker. I'd have to say that SDRC's manuals on their modal analysis software were classics for exactly that reason, you could (I did) teach yourself all about modal from them.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

SomptingGuy,  I'm very impressed.  That's pretty damn good customer service!!  I wouldn't expect that level of service from any software supplier.  You really should just send them reference to a text discussing that subject, or charge for tutorial services.   

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

To the Original post,

My current company will send engineers when necessary into the field even to do non engineering work. Some for Durations of up to a month.

However, the salaried employees get all expenses paid and $100 Bonus a day.

Most of the job sites are in the armpit of the Earth, if they did not do this no one would take the jobs...
 

Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

MintJulep and Mike have it exactly right.

Thinking that as salaried personnel you shouldn't get your hands dirty or must be compensated for any time past 40 hours is the type of thinking that promotes unionization of professions.  

I've been salaried since I graduated from college.  Sometimes I've worked 45 hours in a week, sometimes over a hundred.  So what.  I've learned so much from field work that has helped me in the rest of my practice I considered it a privilege to do it.

Can you really afford such elitism in the long term?

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

It's not the giving of extra hours to the company that I have a problem with, it's the taking of those hours from the time I should be with family and friends.

100 hours a week without extra recompense is exploitation, unless you really love to do it.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

When employer's are taking advantage of the fact that the employee "loves" his job can be the worst kind of exploitation, since those being exploited ... .. ......... don't even realize it themselves.  I don't see where they're helping themselves, other engineers, or the profession as a whole either.  In fact these days you may even be taking bread out of other's mouths that need it more than you do.  Would you really respect a plumber that works for free?  Would you really enter the operating room with a doctor that doesn't charge you for your brain surgery?  Ya. Like I'm sure.  I personally don't believe you're doing me any favors.  Convince me otherwise.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

So, you'd rather have the surgery team that stops in the middle of your surgery and says, Oh, our 8 hours are up, sorry, you'll have to fend for yourself.  There were some minor complications and we ran over, so we'll just pick up tomorrow morning where we left off.  Bye!"  

For myself, I want the team that finishes the job.

And I suppose you'd want to shutdown Medicins sans Frontieres because they give away their services?

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I thought you'd be able to come up with better than that.
I'd expect to pay overtime, or have the next crew come on shift.  You haven't flown nonstop intercontinental flights over 8 hours with union pilots?   

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

BTW  I do pro bono work designing and installing village wells and solar powered water pumps in The Gambia, but not for fat cats, only for officially registered charities.  Much more satisfying doing work for people that REALLY need it.  

http://www.friendsofpenyem.com/2007/12/success-at-last-solar-powered-water.html

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

IRStuff,

Sorry, I don't buy it.  BigInch isn't suggesting that he would never work past 8 hours a day, or past 40 hours a week.  He's just saying that he expects compensation for that extra work (comp time off, bonus, or whatever).

The MSF thing is a non sequitur.

If you don't think you should be compensated for work past 40 hours a week, why do you expect to be compensated for the first 40?

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Yes thanks Bruno.  That's what I was trying to communicate.

In the petrochem engineering field, all the "big engineering houses" happen to have the same policy too.  As most of them charge by the hour, they get no money for any engineering hours not charged and working OT w/o charging those hours creates a special havoc with automatic manhour estimate, progress balancing and invoice generation.  In fact its these exact concepts that probably explain why its pretty unusual to see an engineer mixed in with all those MBAs and lawyers sitting in those board of director's chairs.  They just don't want to take the time to explain those basic concepts to engineers that think they are doing a good job when in reality they're generating negative revenue.  Besides, I never thought it looked very good if you couldn't get your work done within normal working hours anyway.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

thread732-220099: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

So let me get this straight.

Working extra time to fix your own mistakes is unreasonable, degrades the proffession...

Working extra time, away from home over an above what may be reasonably expected of an exempt employee, in potentially dangerous conditions, doing work you may not be qualified to do... because management wont pay hourly staff overtime is a good thing?

I thought engineers were meant to be logical, or am I the one not seeing the logic here?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Alernative views,
-------------------------------------------------------
Mistakes?  Recursive definition....
I thought I made one of those once, but I was wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------
Half my job is fixing mistakes made by the vendor, the office, the construction contractor and the sub contractor and the other half is doing the things they just plain didn't.
-----------------------------------------------------
Coffee breaks, rotation, travel time, vacation, FICA contributions, green lines, yellow lines and red lines are all part of the work.  
-------------------------------------------------------
If you don't pay for fixing the mistakes we find, you'll just have to pay field extras for fixing the ones we don't.
----------------------------------------------------
 

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I guess it all boils down to personal choice. When you get started you can get the lousy hours and the travel with limited compensation, but take advantage of the situation to learn about how concepts are applied, meet clients etc. or decide that it does not treat you in the manner your position deserves and work the 40 at the office and not interfere with your outside life. However each choice has its consequnses, sacrafices and rewards.
Mine apperently was different than most in this forum, but I am very happy for the choices I made.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

That is the true unit of measurement.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization  

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

As an engineer that has spent a lot of time in the field troubleshooting, I can say the experience you get from field work can not be valued.  As a result of the field experience is love to get to do some trouble shooting, get my hands dirt and work with the technicians.  

If you are willing to work alongside a technician and he knows that you can work in the field, you will get a lot more respect and cooperation.

My Dad ran an industrial fabrication shop and when I decided to go into engineering, he told me that I was not going to be what he termed "an arm-chair engineer."  I learned to cut and weld steel, cut, fit and weld pipe and sweep the floor.

There is nothing wrong with getting in the field, as long as you learn from the experience.

Ken  

Ken
KE5DFR
 

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I think we all agree with that statement, however the original question posed was that this work was not expected to offer a learning experience.

If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or 1024 chickens?" - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Yeah, no ones arguing that field experience isn't a good thing.  

It's the specific circumstances that make some of us more sympathetic to the OP.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

With the onfidence of my new employer, I went from designing mechanical equipment for chem plants to managing a field installation of a chem lab addition. It was great fun: going from site prep, to foundations, to steel erection, to concrete, drainage, structure erection, drives and pavements, internal finishes, and furnishings. I also handled ancillary projects falling outside the purview of the builder.

There was the day when a wall mason lost grip of a long rebar, and he contacted a nearby high voltage line. He was nearly killed. We all got sued over that one, and the company fought it out. Never heard more about it.

Then the steel union came around to complain that we were employing non-union people to build a power security gate. I explained, no, we were not seeking to avoid the union; we were busy getting jobs done. I put that job in a later time slot.

I later got the job of plant engr at the facility, and it was the best job I ever had. It included purchasing, model shop, and of course, maint. Any experienced engineer can adapt to field conditions if called upon to serve.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

I am among those who are involved in designing certain aspects of processing facilities.  These facilities may relate to the oil field upstream and downstream with oil and gas processing through the petrochemical production.  The same concepts apply to food, pharmaceutical, power and many other process industries.

I have met several engineers with a dozen or more years engineering experience who have never been at a construction site or within an operating facility.  You can often tell by their work practices and opinions about how things should be done.  If given a choice, I would not hire an engineer with over four-years of home office experience who lacks any site support experience.  I would look for recent grads who paid their way through school working in a construction trade.
 
If field service is craft work or labor then the home office engineer is not the best selection for the field support.  I agree that one should not be expected to perform the work tasks where they lack competency.  However, you may never understand what is needed from engineering if you never provide support where the work happens.  Job site assignments are opportunities.  You can learn about the craft splits that may affect the content on your drawings.  You may also see how construction people fix the mess left by the engineers.

Exempt may mean exempt from paid overtime.  Many engineers are paid straight time for overtime.  Often engineers provide site support working very long days and weeks without compensation.

Job site work is normally more dangerous than work in an office.  Home office accidents happen when people get a payper cut, trip on the stairs while talking on a cell phone etc.  At the job site the risks may include big construction machinery, overhead lifting, fires or explosions, etc.  Those who visit any job site require industrial safety training that is adequate for exposure to the site conditions.

Get over the pay issues and look forward to a learning opportunity.  Stay safe.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Interesting topic.
Back in Belgium, where i'm from, performing tasks that are not in your scope of work, are simply not allowed. For example, if you're an engineer, and you designed a whole piping installation, you can go on field, supervise, do surveys, etc, but you can't perform "dirty" work, like tightening up a bolt, moving a piece of pipe,... You can't even pick up a wrench! It's an insurance thing. Insurances don't cover you for accidents when doing something you're not supposed to. And if a manager insists that you do dirty work, he'll have the unions on his back!

Process - Piping
ing - EiT

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

this is a great chance.  IMO, field work builds engineering intuition.  because you see how retarded a some engineers can be when they don't know how things get built.   

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

and yes.  sometimes those technicians know more than you.  i had a 70 year old iron worker school me on slab bar placement.  and this guy had at best a HS diploma.  just because you're an engineer, doesn't mean you can't learn from the little guys.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

My personal view is if you're a mechanical engineer (I'm only speaking for my own discipline), you better be able to both troubleshoot your own equipment (meaning field service) and be very mechanically inclined (being actually able to fix the problem with your own hands).

Like swivel63 said, there is so much to learn out on the field.  You may encounter more problems than you hoped for, but those problems spur engineering ideas.  It develops teamwork, design skills and, most importantly, the ability to think on your feet.  Besides, we need to get out the office every now and then simply for the betterment of our health.

Engineering is not just in front of the computer.  It encompasses everything from design and development, scheduling and allocating funds, manufacturing, delivery of product and making sure that product performs as intended.  

 

Kyle Chandler
www.chiefengineering.net

 

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Also, I'm sure many industries are different, but when the work demands it, you must find the most qualified person to do that work.  Sometimes it's the engineer, sometimes it's the machinist, etc.  But the point is, you the engineer should understand those peoples' jobs in at least a basic sense to communicate with them intelligently and to delegate project responsibilities when the times comes.  

We can learn quite a bit from someone who does field work as their profession.

Kyle Chandler
www.chiefengineering.net

 

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

"We can learn quite a bit from someone who does field work as their profession"

NSS

as we say.  

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

That just reads National Security Service to me.

Kyle Chandler
www.chiefengineering.net

 

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

[No Shit Sherlock]


Ron

RE: Office Engineers Doing Field Work

Wish I'd said that, Dave!

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