Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
(OP)
Here is my scenario. I'm an engineering graduate who did structural engineering for a few years, but never tested for my PE. I hit job cutbacks and eventually decided to do AutoCAD Drafting to earn a living. I service different Engs, Archs, Int Dgns, and etc, which has provoked this question. ...When someone gives me paper copies of building drawings (or civil site, or similar) to recreate in AutoCAD format, can I trace them into AutoCAD without violating "copyright" of the original creator of the drawings? ...Here is a perfect example I'm currently working on. ...A client of mine who does anti-corrosion systems contacted me about a water tower. The owner of the water tower wants to add my client's anti-corrosion system to their tower. My client gave me paper copies of the water tower, that were originally created by a structural engineering firm, so I could get the tower into AutoCAD format. From that point I will overlay his anti-corrosion system on the tower. The thing is, the paper copies have a "property of XYZ Company" stamp on them. I have assumed that my client has received these drawings from the owner and that he has the right to give them to me for recreating them in AutoCAD format. ...This is how many of my projects are. They are improvement or revision type projects that require existing paper copies to be converted to AutoCAD so that the improvement or revision can be added.





RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
As far as who owns the drawings, how is it that your clients get the drawings and the related projects? I doubt they are stealing the drawings. It is fairly certain that the water tower's owner has rights to the plans.
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
These sorts of things occur in aerospace all the time, and without some knowledge of the contractual obligations, it's a minefield.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
"certification that they have the right to copy, which is then transferred to you."
?
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
If you went and took measurements of the tower, noted materials, etc, you could probably reproduce the drawings anyways, and I don't see an ethical or legal problem with this (unless you did build and sell a watertower based on the information). The drawings just make it easier.
-- MechEng2005
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
afterall, how do they know that you copied it from their drawings or measured it on site.
We have done this type of thing dozens of times with no issue.
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
This seems to be a simple case of intellectual property. If you are representing the existing structure in your drawings as "existing" then what you are doing is both ethical and reasonable. Could you field verify the conditions you are showing?
It is quite often we take whatever existing drawings are available if we are doing an addition (horizontal not vertical) to a building and try to incorporate the salient parts into our contract drawings. We pull off sizes and put a +/- on dimensions but represent the information as "as drawn" unless we have been paid to field verify something. The copyright law in the US is state by state, but basically it protects the original producer from you coming in, copying the drawing and then building a new tower from those drawings and selling it.
This is very similar to a recent case where the Harry Potter Author JK Rawling sued an author who heavily borrowed material from her books to produce a "compendium". This compendium was material that had already been published on a free website, but because the author of the compendium wanted to sell the book for a profit the Judge found it "infringed" upon the creation of the original author. If the book contained more original content and didn't rely as heavily on borrowed material, then it would have been acceptable.
In this case you, and the company that hired you, is creating a new product, that while it is important to have the information on the original design, creates your own product.
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
There are lots of possibly relevant cases:
> Suzuki(?) was sued by HD for infringing on their trademarked exhaust sound. Suzuki lost, and was forced to change their exhaust system, which was designed specifically to mimic the HD exhaust sound.
> Apple litigated a case about 2 decades ago, suing Microsoft for infringing on Apple's "look & feel." They lost, but that was mostly because the specific GUI items in contention had already been licensed to Microsoft previously.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
First, congrats for being concerned about ethics. Your employer should be pleased your concerned.
As far as your question, here's my take. Copyright violations are separate from being a licensed engineer. Everyone is America is required to follow copyright law, regardless of profession or education. So I disagree that only the PE signing on the drawings need to be concerned about copyright. I think everyone needs to be concerned.
Second, the only person/entity that can release the copyright is the copyright owner. Most likely this is the firm or individual that originally drafted the prints, not the firm that provided you with a copy. So I don't think that simply placing a note in your contract with the construction firms covers you.
My suggestion would be to require any company that provides you with a copy of drawings to also provide you with a letter from the copyright owner allowing to copy the drawings and add your details to their drawings. What you are describing sounds like standard practice so I don't think they should be concerned.
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
By the way, reverse engineering of a product is both legal and acceptable. I did my first two years out of college in aerospace.
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
http://www.aia.org/SiteObjects/files/94-16.pdf
As a licensing board, they made a decision about a similar situation as mine. (Keep in mind that the disciplines I deal with are primarily Structural Eng and Architectural.) They judged the situation in question based on what standard practice within the industry is. The copyright Laws also mention how the Laws are to be interpreted by the spirit of the Law and what standard industry practice is, whatever that industry may be. ...If you read the responses to this thread, you may notice how people exposed to different industries may have a different take on my situation.
All of your comments have been so helpful, and I'm truly grateful for all of them. It's amazing how this thread has remained pretty focused. It has DEFINITELY helped me make some immediate decisions that were needed. I also have food to chew on in considering the decisions I made. ...You live, and you learn (from others!).
p.s. The AIA also has another interesting ruling of a similar situation at:
http://www.aia.org/SiteObjects/files/2002-22.pdf
RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com