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Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans
5

Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
Here is my scenario. I'm an engineering graduate who did structural engineering for a few years, but never tested for my PE. I hit job cutbacks and eventually decided to do AutoCAD Drafting to earn a living. I service different Engs, Archs, Int Dgns, and etc, which has provoked this question. ...When someone gives me paper copies of building drawings (or civil site, or similar) to recreate in AutoCAD format, can I trace them into AutoCAD without violating "copyright" of the original creator of the drawings? ...Here is a perfect example I'm currently working on. ...A client of mine who does anti-corrosion systems contacted me about a water tower. The owner of the water tower wants to add my client's anti-corrosion system to their tower. My client gave me paper copies of the water tower, that were originally created by a structural engineering firm, so I could get the tower into AutoCAD format. From that point I will overlay his anti-corrosion system on the tower. The thing is, the paper copies have a "property of XYZ Company" stamp on them. I have assumed that my client has received these drawings from the owner and that he has the right to give them to me for recreating them in AutoCAD format. ...This is how many of my projects are. They are improvement or revision type projects that require existing paper copies to be converted to AutoCAD so that the improvement or revision can be added.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

Copying protected material is playing with fire. Adapt the information; that's the usual process of eng'g change or improvement.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
it could be. but then there is the idea of drawings becoming public domain. there is also the idea that the client has bought them. lastly, it seems like some eng firms drop a little copyright note on whatever they create, when it may have not have been agreed to by the client in his contract with the eng. ...i just want to know my rights in my situation, in which the owner wants additions to his structure.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

There is a huge difference between copyright and confidentiality.  Copyright is about publishing and sale of works.  Doesn't seem to apply here.

As far as who owns the drawings, how is it that your clients get the drawings and the related projects?  I doubt they are stealing the drawings. It is fairly certain that the water tower's owner has rights to the plans.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

The simplest thing to do is to ask your client for a certification that they have the right to copy, which is then transferred to you.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
thanks "TheTick". ...like this project, my other clients are hired by Owners to make revisions or additions to their property (whether it be a water tower, bldg, single apt). i just assume my clients get the paper drawings from the owners, and then i create CAD versions of them. it seems ethically sound to me??? ...i'm trying to learn more about what i should be aware of in my dealings with paper copies of drawings.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
thanks "IRstuff". i could ask, but i'd like to know more about who has the rights of use of paper project plans in situations like i've mentioned.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

Either the EOR mislabeled the drawings, or they belong to the original client, or they belong to the EOR because the client didn't pay for everything.  There is no way to guess which one, without having the original contractual documents.  

These sorts of things occur in aerospace all the time, and without some knowledge of the contractual obligations, it's a minefield.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
As a side note IRstuff, what would be considered

"certification that they have the right to copy, which is then transferred to you."

?

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

Basically, a letter or contract modification stating that they are the final copyright owners and are giving you the authority to copy/modify them.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

The person responsible is the engineer of record who will sign the final drawings you produce.  The content of many details you see on other firms drawings may contain interpretation of code requirements in which case copyrights do not apply.  Anything beyond code, proprietary content, patented content, one should be cautious.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

My (non-legal) opinion would be that if the original watertower drawings were given to the client by the design company, they become available for use with the exception of reverse engineering and selling the same item. Using them to create the same or similar watertower would not be acceptable. However, what you are selling is the anti-corrosion system. As TheTick pointed out, copyright protects from the sale of others' work. You are clearly selling your own work, not the watertower.

If you went and took measurements of the tower, noted materials, etc, you could probably reproduce the drawings anyways, and I don't see an ethical or legal problem with this (unless you did build and sell a watertower based on the information). The drawings just make it easier.

-- MechEng2005

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
I've been looking into copyright laws on Architecture, and it seems I need a good interpretation of them. It seems the drawings don't need a stamp to be protected. Even though my purposes are harmless, I still may need permission. Ugh! I'm trying to figure this out so I can avoid requesting anything impractical from this client, or any future prospective clients. Once I'm considered impractical I'll get awarded no projects.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

I would think that trying to use the copyrighted drawings to produce another water tower would be a clear violation of the copyright.  To use the drawings as a source of information about the water tower for subsequent work would fall under the fair use provision.  Presumably you are interested in "quoting" a small portion of the copyrighted work rather than a wholesale copying of everything.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

I would wager that there are laws requiring that these drawings be available for future work on the structure.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

I typically word my contracts that the client shall provide to me a copy of whatever documents I am working from, as a condition of my contract.  I assume the client secured permission from the owner of the intellectual property (IP) and I have no duty to the IP owner.  Perhaps I should go farther and specifically state my assumption to make it clear.

 

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

I think that would be a prudent thing to do.  In aerospace, there are often "limited use" rights assigned to the customer, so he has the right to use or copy some things for himself, but he might actually not be allowed to provide them to a third party, particularly if that party is a competitor to the originator of the IP.

TTFN

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RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

Do you need to copy the entire drawing? Realistically to do a refurbishment you need much less information that the original construction drawings needed. So draw only what you need to and then they will be sufficiently different that there will be no issue.

afterall, how do they know that you copied it from their drawings or measured it on site.

We have done this type of thing dozens of times with no issue.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

Redraw at a different scale, use a different font, locate dimensions along a different face, etc.  This negates any "COPY" concerns!  However, I would make a site visit to confirm as-built correctness.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

First, I'm not a lawyer only an Engineer.
This seems to be a simple case of intellectual property.  If you are representing the existing structure in your drawings as "existing" then what you are doing is both ethical and reasonable.  Could you field verify the conditions you are showing?
It is quite often we take whatever existing drawings are available if we are doing an addition (horizontal not vertical) to a building and try to incorporate the salient parts into our contract drawings.  We pull off sizes and put a +/- on dimensions but represent the information as "as drawn" unless we have been paid to field verify something.  The copyright law in the US is state by state, but basically it protects the original producer from you coming in, copying the drawing and then building a new tower from those drawings and selling it.  
This is very similar to a recent case where the Harry Potter Author JK Rawling sued an author who heavily borrowed material from her books to produce a "compendium".  This compendium was material that had already been published on a free website, but because the author of the compendium wanted to sell the book for a profit the Judge found it "infringed" upon the creation of the original author.  If the book contained more original content and didn't rely as heavily on borrowed material, then it would have been acceptable.
In this case you, and the company that hired you, is creating a new product, that while it is important to have the information on the original design, creates your own product.   

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

I'm not a lawyer, either, but I do like to argue winky smile

There are lots of possibly relevant cases:
>  Suzuki(?) was sued by HD for infringing on their trademarked exhaust sound.  Suzuki lost, and was forced to change their exhaust system, which was designed specifically to mimic the HD exhaust sound.

>  Apple litigated a case about 2 decades ago, suing Microsoft for infringing on Apple's "look & feel."  They lost, but that was mostly because the specific GUI items in contention had already been licensed to Microsoft previously.

TTFN

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RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
In the past week I've learned allot about copyright. It's a bit tricky when one factors in "fair use" and and "implied license". I've actually even spoken to an engineer turned lawyer, who specializes in eng law suits and copyright matters. IRstuff had some good comments that line up with what I found, and what the lawyer said. An Owner buying plans (ie design services resulting in plans) is like him buying a book, but the analogy isn't perfect. ...Some of my understanding on this topic is that as soon as a drawing is put on a tangible medium (a napkin, etc.) it is copyrighted, even if it doesn't have the little copyright symbol. Therefore, as a third party Drafting Service (that's what i am), if my Client gives me drawings with someone else's title block, then I need to confirm with the author of the drawings that I can use his drawings. Even if the drawings come from the Owner of the property, because according to the Law the Owner doesn't have the copyright of the drawings that he has in his possession (it's like buying a book). Yes, there may be instances of contractual agreements that give the Owner the copyright, but as a third party Drafting Service I'd need to confirm that with the author of the drawings. ...With this in mind, then in any dealings between an Engineer and an Owner, the Eng should also verify that he can copy from the drawings, or make copies of them. ...A simple indemnification clause would be nice to simplify dealings, but that doesn't really protect one from getting sued or from being responsible. ...There are many variables that can effect the second hand use of plans. ...It really is easier just to check with the Author of the plans, but that could turn a client off. ...life aint easy.
 

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

Patent law is equally tricky.  I've been involved, briefly, in which a consumer was sued for patent infringement, for buying and infringing product, mainly because the company, Boeing, had such deep pockets.   

TTFN

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RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

To the OP:

First, congrats for being concerned about ethics. Your employer should be pleased your concerned.

As far as your question, here's my take. Copyright violations are separate from being a licensed engineer. Everyone is America is required to follow copyright law, regardless of profession or education. So I disagree that only the PE signing on the drawings need to be concerned about copyright. I think everyone needs to be concerned.

Second, the only person/entity that can release the copyright is the copyright owner. Most likely this is the firm or individual that originally drafted the prints, not the firm that provided you with a copy. So I don't think that simply placing a note in your contract with the construction firms covers you.

My suggestion would be to require any company that provides you with a copy of drawings to also provide you with a letter from the copyright owner allowing to copy the drawings and add your details to their drawings. What you are describing sounds like standard practice so I don't think they should be concerned.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

The other comment is if you don't want to be seen impratical by your clients, you can directly request that from the architect. They should be reasonable since what you are asking is not significant. They may want to charge a small fee, which would also be reasonable.

By the way, reverse engineering of a product is both legal and acceptable. I did my first two years out of college in aerospace.

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

(OP)
Want to hear something interesting that should be taken into consideration when determining how to use existing drawings, in light of Copyright Laws? There is an interesting ruling by the AIA on this matter. The ruling can be found at:

http://www.aia.org/SiteObjects/files/94-16.pdf

As a licensing board, they made a decision about a similar situation as mine. (Keep in mind that the disciplines I deal with are primarily Structural Eng and Architectural.) They judged the situation in question based on what standard practice within the industry is. The copyright Laws also mention how the Laws are to be interpreted by the spirit of the Law and what standard industry practice is, whatever that industry may be. ...If you read the responses to this thread, you may notice how people exposed to different industries may have a different take on my situation.

All of your comments have been so helpful, and I'm truly grateful for all of them. It's amazing how this thread has remained pretty focused. It has DEFINITELY helped me make some immediate decisions that were needed. I also have food to chew on in considering the decisions I made. ...You live, and you learn (from others!).

p.s. The AIA also has another interesting ruling of a similar situation at:

http://www.aia.org/SiteObjects/files/2002-22.pdf

 

RE: Working off of "Copyrighted" Project Plans

AIA is not a licensing board, but a professional organization.  NCARB, like NCEES, write tests that the states use to license architects.

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

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