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And you thought it was bad on this site!

And you thought it was bad on this site!

And you thought it was bad on this site!

(OP)
On this site, and especially in this forum, spelling mistakes are targeted with glee by the spelling police, which includes pretty well all of us when it is some one else's spelling.

Apparently, spelling and grammar are of even more concern to some people out there in the real world:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2652883/Grammar-vigilantes-go-to-war-on-error.html

I have sympathy, but if I have a niggle it is less with spelling or grammar than it is with words... and the way new words creep in.

A word like "Quiz" appeals to me.
It is appropriate to this article of activists at work in defence of our language or promoting positive change; the creator of the word promoted it everywhere graphiti-like and people kept asking "what does it mean" and that gave it its meaning.
I like the word "Vauxhall" not for the car or the infamous pleasure gardens that once existed in London, but because, as the name of a London railway station it became, phonetically, and due to a misunderstanding between the British Hosts and the Russian guests, the Russian word for a railway station.
I do not like (I am warned to keep my blood pressure within medically safe limits) the word "sineage" (however spelt)  and I especially do not like the term "street furniture".

Oh well....
read the article and be amused.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

It boils over into pronunciation - I get  a bit bored with telling people my post code over the phone - and then being corrected by the party at the other end.

The last three characters of my post code - 5 H N.
So, I usually say: 'Five, aitch, enn' and, four times out of five, the voice at the other end says 'Five, haitch, enn' in a questioning tone.

Not forgetting the apostrophe getting plastered everywhere.

Bill

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

So just say five-hotel-november, see how that goes over.

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

(OP)
Interesting. I was reading Derren Brown's "Tricks of the Mind" and he was talking about memory menmonmics (it appears neither I, nor Big Bill know the right spelling of this word) and numbers.
The brain can apparently learn short groups of numbers quite easily which is why we tend to break up longer numbers into shorter groups.
When I recite my phone number to people I have a particular grouping. Whoever I am talking to on the phone then repeats it back to me with a completely different grouping or no grouping at all i.e. just read off the sequence. This quite throws me and I don't recognise the number for a moment and have to reconstruct what they said to check it out.
That's because I recite from memory where the grouping is important and they read it of their screen or piece of paper.
This is most acute with my Softphone number because I so rarely use it. A close second is my cell phone because I never call that though I do call my land-line to talk to significant other when I'm out. When giving out my softphone number I read it off my calling card. This means I don't use the grouping or depend on it so i have the least problem with this number.

OK, fair enough. But I do object to me saying "Oh one" and them saying, fussily, "zero one". My number, my preferences please.

A follow-up article touches on two popular ENG-TIPS topics, the "10 items or less" problem in semantics and grammar, and reference to "Eats, Shoots and leaves."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/09/01/do105.xml
We see  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

I usually give out my home phone in three distinct chunks: the area code, then the first three numbers of the local bit, then the second three.  I guess that's historical.  As a kid local (village) numbers were three digits long.  Then they added a three digit prefix to it so that we fell under the local city.  I would still tell my friends that my number was 491, they'd know what I meant by it.  The I became aware of the rest of the country and had to remember the city prefix.

But at work (as is probably true in many companies), my internal number is four digits long.  So I give my number out as area code, then two digits, then four digits.  This confuses most oall centre people.

- Steve

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

(OP)
David,
Ah! the international phonetic code.
For those who use it all the time it is no problem, for others E for echo sometimes become "E for Edward."
So when someone says "E, Edward." when it is repeated back should the professional say "E, Echo," or "E, Edward."?
It isn't the correction I mind, but the emphasis they use.

When calling from the South and the call centre operative is in the North, or some other country altogether, the phonetic alphabet is important and especially given some call quality problems.
Some people use it quite naturally and others use it to show they are vastly superior to you.

Actually, I'm just remembering some of the required protocols for peer to peer calling.
Never "Nine" but "Nine-ah." I can't quite remember but should that be "fiver Hotel November?"
I can't remember much of the actual number conventions nor much of the rest, but during training exercises (ROC) we were always a bit self-concious at our post when using the LST.
On the other hand, when we were allowed above ground occasionally to rig the radio mast, we then had a tendency to ham it up over the radio like a bunch of kids playing at Biggles.

During one exercise I was manning the LST when I had the interrupted the exercise with: "Toxin, Toxin. Loud explosion heard."  
This caused a bit of a blank moment at HQ. I don't know what went through their minds.

TOXIN was a priority call.
It allowed you to interrupt the normal flow of dialogue and since it wasn't in the script it had to be genuine (or someone was going to get a real bol***king.
On the other hand, a genuine priority call would be a bit unexpected, even though things were shaky in the good old USSR at the time, hence the blank moment at HQ.

It obviously called for a very good explanation.

OK, so Nuclear war hadn't just broken out and it was an Inernal rather than external explosion so I was egging the pudding a bit, but they had to let it slide for "'elf and safety" reasons: our new batteries had blown up because no one had said we had to take the vent plugs out.
OK, so it was just the gases finally blowing the vent plugs out by themselves but in the confines of our bunker it really was quite a bang when they let go.
Of course, we weren't the only ones with new batteries so the exercise was delayed while everyone else was alerted to remove the plugs.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

Only digit that changes in "nine" becomes "niner" to ensure no confusion with the Germany "nein".

If someone reads me a string and uses different words for the letters than I would use I make no attempt to remember what they used when I read it back; I just use my own.

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

I live in Indonesia and my wife is native Indonesian.  I sit in utter amazement that it takes her sometimes 5 minutes to give someone her email address over the phone.  It has to do with the different pronunciations of the vowels and my wife mixes up the English and the Indonesian way within the same explanation.  In Indonesian "", they pronounce the letter E as "A", the letter I as "E"; the letter A as "ahhh", the letter U as "oo" - as in moon.  When she went for her eye test in Canada when she first got there, I told the optometrist that if he asked the big first letter at the top and she said "A", it was because of the Indonesian pronunciation - he said not to worry as he was Dutch.

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

davidbeach, and five is pronounced fife, the way I learnt.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

I never heard about five/fife, but my ability to pick up subtle differences in pronunciation (or at least what I categorize as subtle) has never be good so for me, at least, five and fife would sound close enough over a less than perfect radio that I'd never notice the difference.

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

davidbeach - I do use exactly that string "five-hotel-november" and still get Haitched straight back.

A sign of the moronic state of UK education.

Bill

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

UK education?  I'm not so sure.  I blame it on a desire to conform.  My 9 year old daughter drops the letter "t" in many words, even correcting me when I don't.  She gets it from the school playground (and her mother I suppose), none of her teachers speaks like this.

Haitch/Aitch is a bit like this I think.  Follow the pack leader or look stupid.

- Steve

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

bigH,
i can sympathise, as an Oz in NA no-one gets my vowels, for me to say "hawk" so my wife can understand (without laughing) i have to say "hoch"; sigh.

 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

My wife for one and I've heard many a UK TV and radio presenter say the same.

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

I think my wife does.

She also can't seem to say windscreen.  She insists on trying to slip another "ow" syllable into it to make it windowscreen.  I did try pointing out (tactfully) once that it is a screen to protect you from wind and that Americans don't use the word windowshield for the same thing.  I got the all too familiar death stare.

- Steve

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

fcsuper - it's an English English thing.

Sadly, these days, many teachers of our Mother Tongue are often not well equiped to actually teach it.

When I was at my primary school (many years ago in the 50s) the process of teaching language was far more organised and (dare I use this word) strict - you were told when you were wrong. I don't think that's allowed these days in case you offend someone.

For example - where I grew up, the influences on language from London's East End were rife.
Many people pronounced 'th' as 'f', as in 'fink' instead of 'think', 'fought' instead of 'thought'.
Other words did not follow this pattern - 'that' became 'dat' for example.
In Dickens 'Pickwick Papers', Sam Weller speaks with a south east London dialect which uses 'v' to replace 'w' and 'th' in some words. This persisted into the early 20th century.
Forget screen Cockneys and Dick van Dykes, these were real people speaking.

Similarly, people that pronounced 'th' as an 'f' sound usually 'dropped their aitches' as well, so 'hat' became 'at', 'horse' became 'orse', 'high' became 'eye'. and so on.
Then, when speaking in the company of someone percieved to be 'posher' than them and being conscious of the fact they normally drop their aitches, they would aspirate the 'h' sound in places where it isn't - hence the 'Haitch' business.

It's now quite widespread - TV adverts, TV presenters, call centre operators, etc, etc.

Bill

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

(OP)
Don't let's get onto wives and significant others.
My wife...well I edited a whole lot out of the previous post  so let me leave it at that.
I do wonder why so many TV presenters have:
  • accents
  • bad grammar
  • spots/funny hair styles
  • no dress sense
  • no imagination

  • [li[no personality[/li]
I could go on.
No I don't mean we should revert exclusively to a sort of Harry Enfield world of stiff upper lips and Oxbridge accents.
I just wonder why we in the South have so many Scottish and Irish voices on our radios and TV, is it that in Scotland and Ireland they get all the Oxbridge voices? And as for that Gerodie on Channel Four.... he drives me nuts...( and Londoners with their "orspitlle" for hospital.
Then too we have had so many imported programs it is no wonder we now have Australian baby talk.... barbie (bar0b-Q), Uni (University) and even the interogative uplift at the end of every sentence.
Good grief, every country seems intent on exporting all the worst aspects of its own culture to every other country. Poor AMericans getting Eastenders and Corrie (Coranation Street) balsted into their oems by PBS. It was Ok when it was Mr Bean or Benny Hill (both very popular in Ian) but then, they didn't open their mouths.....

OK, beathe easy, rant over.
No wonder the country is going to the dogs.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

(OP)
Apologies also for forgetting the spell checker and grammar checker in that last rant. My wife has risen from her bed to make me some coffeeeeee....so all will be well again shortly. Until she says "is that E eberhart or I idiotensicher?" Some time after which the police will arrive on a "domestic".

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

Quote:

and even the interogative uplift at the end of every sentence

EXACTLY !!! Grrrrr

Bill

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

Has anyone noticed how the g at the end of *****ing is being pronounced ****ingeh? (Asterisks replace any verb)

At least in the UK

Stephen Argles
Land & Marine
www.landandmarine.com

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

(OP)
Er, some bad typos in my previous posts.
"oems" should have been "homes"
"both very popular in Ian" should have read, "both very popular in Iran." (how else would the Iranians have dubbed that hapless dolt the Royal Navy let them capture "Mr Bean"?) and I know from my brother in law how popular Benny Hill is/was.
Anyway, two strong coffees in succession have worked wonders and no "domestic".

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

I thought "oems" was intentional and the "Ian" was a joke I simply couldn't understand.

- Steve

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

WGJ, thank you for picking out every flaw in my pronunciation.  I'll now go away and cry.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!


Whatever I said, I didn't mean you old boy, old fruit old friend, o;d Pubster.

You should hear me when ahv ad a feyew. Blimey, yerd fink ah woz just aht a Lymahse.

Bill

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

"I do wonder why so many TV presenters have ... accents"

Everyone has an accent.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

True, we all have accents.

The point is though, that some accents are difficult for other English speakers to understand.  A TV announcer that can only be understood by a few people isn't a sensible choice.
 

- Steve

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

What we need is audio files of:

A Geordie
A Glaswegian (preferably from Govan)
An Irish bloke from Straban
A Scouser (someone from certain parts of Liverpool)
An East Ender (from Bow or Stepney, say)

They should all say the same thing and non-Brits get to see how they say it.

Here's a Govan chap: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wzQbmV-Og3M
Some Scousers: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=W7VspOs3Qt0
A selection of Geordies: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pImvSXaNduo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwx0-oewjsM&feature=related
Couldn't find a proper East End accent on youtube so here's a clip from the 60s of a fast food outlet: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1LOCYTmyYl4&feature=related

Bill

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

According to most Americans all Brits speak with either Cockney or Upper Class/Received Pronunciation/Queens English.  So they may understand the Cockney, so long as there's not too much rhyming slang.

Didn't look at your link but I defy anyone from more than 50 miles away from Newcastle to understand thick Geordie.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

Ref the fife/five, nine/niner earlier in the thread, it's actually NATO standard speak.  So everyone comes to the party at the right time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenetic_alphabet

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

(OP)
Thanks Scotty7

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

But Geordies don't talk, they sing.

Anyone ever have a conversation with a Georgian (from Atlanta) and a Alabama hillbilly after hitting the moonshine?  Worse than a thick Geordie accent.

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

I was had to transfer to a puddle jumber in Atlanta airport, I asked the girl at the desk if I was at the right gate as the layout was confusing and my flight wasn't on the board yet.

She replied something like "hum dam mem yubum..." , to this day I have no idea what she said.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: And you thought it was bad on this site!

jmw,

I wonder if anyone has been arrested for sitting on street furniture.

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