New subscription punishment policy here
New subscription punishment policy here
(OP)
Matt Lombard published the letter he received from his VAR here:
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=305
Any thoughts on this? Check out the survey results. If I remember correctly this has been rumored in this forum once before.
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=305
Any thoughts on this? Check out the survey results. If I remember correctly this has been rumored in this forum once before.
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.






RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Well there is the sticky thing called service packs to fix bugs on there software. As much as users complain about Micro$oft, at least they don't charge you for all of the fixes for there software. On a similar note, there was a recall on a radiator hose and Chrysler paid for there mistake instead of charging us extra for it. Basically I think that service packs should be free for the version that was purchase (07,08, etc.)
Flores
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I really don't understand the SW corporate logic on this one. The way I see it is that they should be grateful that we stick with their software at all. After all, in a free market there are usually other alternatives that are competitively priced. It sort of smacks of a corporate buyout in the works. Eek a little more cash from the loyal subscribers just before closing your doors...
Chris, is this the reason your company isn't upgrading (if you don't mind me asking)?
Dan
www.eltronresearch.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Funny thing is they have their own seats of SolidWorks, but don't anybody else having it!
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Geeze, guys. Maybe we should start a hippie commune. I'm mean Westcliffe isn't too far from that already...
Dan
www.eltronresearch.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
We had all of our guys off maintenance for 2 years. Last year we added maintenance to my PC only. They zinged us $500 EXTRA because I was off it for 2 years. So we told them we are not renewing everyones then. So, by fining us the 500 bucks, they lost out on at least 7 additional seats of maintenance being purchased.
Apparently they were ok with losing 7 maintenance seats just to gain 500 bucks from mine. Duh.
Now they are adding another 850 if over 120 days? HA. Well those 7 seats we still have off maintenance are definitely never going back on it now.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Hey guys
Let's address the two issues raised here individually. First, the issue of the late fees.
There is a very small handful of customers who let their subscription support lapse, but continue to take advantage of the benefits of paid support for weeks, months, or even years before renewing their service. These late fees have existed since SolidWorks was founded in 1995 as a way to recoup some of the money that we lose by providing ongoing support to these customers while the vast majority of customers continue to pay for support on schedule. Again, these late fees are nothing new—they've existed since the subscription support program began, and have historically been applied only to those very few customers who opt to stay on a specific version of software for an extended period of time. If you take a look at the document Matt posted, you'll notice that it's not discussing a new policy, but that the late fee is simply increasing by $350 for people who go past a new time threshold. Like Matt has said himself, this only affects people who have been using subscription support but have not paid for it for more than 120 days/3 months.
As to the second issue regarding the increase in the fees themselves, there are a few reasons why the new tier and price was added. There are major improvements in the product itself that warrant ongoing investment in both core functionality (performance and quality) as well as new functions. These new functions require more support in order to make our customers as productive as possible. And, all of the revenue generated from these subscription program fees is 100% dedicated to improving and enhancing the software's functionality so that our customers can be more productive and efficient. It costs SolidWorks money to continue to provide subscription-level support to people who aren't paying for it. There's also the fact that things just cost more over time. And again, this late fee increase doesn't affect the overwhelming majority of our customers—only those who continue to take advantage of support past that 120-day/3 month period.
Does that make sense to everyone?
If not, let me know.
Rich Welch - VP Customer Services SolidWorks
Jeff Mirisola, CSWP, Certified DriveWorks AE
http://designsmarter.typepad.com/jeffs_blog
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=317
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
So people that aren't paying for support, get the same services as those that do? Well that make sense.
Joe
SW Office 2006 SP5.1
P4 3.0Ghz 1GB
ATI FireGL X1
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I have 7 seats to renew that have been off maintenance for 2 years.
They have never called for help. So, now we are expected to pay $6,000 to support the people who called in for help and didn't have a subscription?
I guess next time I go to the car dealer for a new vehicle they are going to charge me $500 for the gas in the car because 50 people test drove it before me.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I don't buy that excuse. First if a VERY SMALL HANDFUL of customers get help without paying for it, why do they punish the majority who do pay for it? On the flip side, I bet more than a LARGE handful of customers NEVER use customer support. Have any of you been reimbursed for not using your VAR for customer support?
Flores
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
SW2008 Office Pro SP3.1
Intel Core 2 Duo CPU
2.2GHz, 2.00GB RAM
QuadroFX 3700
SpacePilot/SpaceNavigator
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=321
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=323
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Dan
www.eltronresearch.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=325
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I've received this unpleasent letter to. I think SW is going the wrong way.
IMO the costumers have the right to suspend the subscription for some time as they understand that the money does not correspond to the pretended enhancements. We have seen a lot of this, when SW was investing time in nice icons and new bugs (I think only since 2007 things have changed), instead of what realy was needed: more stability, more speed, more features.
AFAIK, with no subscription there's no support nor new SP's. So, I think it isn't unfair that the fee to return to subscription it's less than the subscription*year.
After all, who stayed in subscription had a better service than the others, and skyping subscriprion it´s a way of "punish" SW for not doing the work properly.
Lets make it clear that I pay subscription.
Another problem it´s the support quality. It's common to get a better and faster support here, in this forum, than from a var. Sometimes I need to solve problems myself (like running the flexlm driver in XP x64, one thing that my var told me it was not possible). One big problem VAR's have, it's that they don't realy need to work with SW, as we all do. So all of you (at least all together) are far better than (I suppose) any VAR. So the money we pay for support realy worth it?
My company is growing, so we are considering installing more SW lics and PDM Enterprise. When my VAR sended me the subscription fees of PDME, my eyes poped out! And they say that the payement it's more for support than for enhancements, as the software it's very mature! And also to keep up with new releases of SW.
It's almost impossible to justify all the costs with SW and PDM Enterprise subscription. So the solution will be: buy PDM Enterprise without subscription and end SW subscription; let the IT guys decide to buy another software. Anyway, SW will loose.
Regards
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
NX (was UG) costs an order of magnitude more, and if you just work with basic geometry, it is overkill. However, they do have it right in how they charge the customer; an annual invoice is sent for any services expected. If you don't pay that invoice, don't expect any support. Pay it, and many avenues of support are opened.
It's a shame that SW is ruining their customer relations as they are, for they really do have a good product for the money.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Dan
www.eltronresearch.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Dan
www.eltronresearch.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Why do I need to pay for past service I did not need or use? Why should I pay for future service I will not need? They should pay me. By the time I call them with a problem, it's over their heads and becomes a real issue.
I'll just start fresh with a new seat if/when the need arises.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
We have 3 seats here, and I do not think that any of us have contacted our VARs for tech support in the last two years. I have a hard time coming up with anything of value that we receive from the portion of our subscription fee that goes to the VAR. The best that I have is that they use some of that money to attract new users and retain existing users whose purchase and subscriptions support further development of the application. That is an indirect return on investment at best.
Having a fee for reinstating a subscription that has lapsed is reasonable, but poorly presented. The portion of the subscription fee that does not go to the VAR can be viewed as purchasing an upgrade from your current version to the next version. By starting a subscription mid version and going one year on and one year off, a user could get all the versions while paying only half of the subscription fees. The late fee serves to discourage this practice.
The upgrade through the subscription does cost less than buying a new license. This takes into account two things. The user already has an older version so the new version has less value to them than to someone who doesn't already own an older version. And, the user already contributed to the development of the application when they bought their old version. While not the usual practice, it seems fair that the older the version that is being upgraded, the greater the cost to upgrade. This is similar in nature to the fee for renewing a lapsed subscription increasing for each year that the user is off subscription.
A reasonable and fair system would be to allow users to purchase upgrades for a price based on how old their current version is, with no requirement for subscription based tech support. The previous version could be one price, the one before that a higher price and so on. Users who want tech support via subscription through their VARs could purchase that separately.
Eric
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
The only thing subscription buys my company is access to service packs which should be free anyway. Why do I need to pay to make sure the software I purchased is bug-free as advertised? I know we also receive upgrades to the newest version, but it's a bit shady to charge me for an upgrade that I may or may not use. Specifically, my company has paid the last two years' dues. However, I have no intention of upgrading from 2007 until 2009 because there's no way I'm getting mired in the shite that is 2008.
As Eric mentioned, it's fair to assume an upgrade from a 2 year old software should cost more than an upgrade from last year's version. However, the difference here is we're being forced to incrementally pay for this upgrade at the beginning of the subscription year. Each year I wonder:
"Is this year's version worth the money I've already paid for it?"
"No?"
"Ok, let's pay again in another year and hope for the best."
I would prefer to let our subscriptions lapse and backpay the fees, except that this route leaves us out in the cold when it comes to SPs.
People and/or companies are generally willing to pay for the specific services they use, so why incur the disdain of loyal users by forcing open their pocketbooks unnecessarily. The new (and old) fee structure is more like a good reason to abandon subscription and stick to a stable old SP5, not a reason to make sure you pay on time and not get fined. So long story long... bite me SW. I like money hungry corporations about as much as pickpockets and meter maids. Can you tell I'm tired and cranky today?
-Mahir
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
You are correct in all you say except that you are not out in the cold with regard to service packs. You are entitled to all the service packs on the version you purchased. I know because I am still on SW2005 and I was supplied with all the service packs by the VAR from which the software was purchased. I do not subscribe to support and never have. Some day I may feel the need to upgrade and at that time I will pay the necessary fees and get the latest version. In the mean time, I do not need the latest and greatest so I do not need support. This path has always been open per SW policy.
Timelord
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Wow, if that's true I feel quite the retard (where are the Special Olympics folks?) for letting my current and past employers fall into the subscription trap for so many years. It's not my money, but it still stings a bit. I'll be checking with my VAR and/or SolidWorks, and if this pans out my last subscription fee will hopefully be the last one I pay before I actually want to upgrade.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Did you buy SW2005 before or after all the SPs were released? I know you're entitled to whatever SPs were released at the time you purchased SW, but I'd like to confirm you were given access to future SPs that were released after your purchase date.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
As to the SW service packs, my boss bought the copy and never used it. I got the copy in 2006 and the install discs were at SP0.0. I called the VAR and asked for the service packs and they supplied them on a disc. They updated their records to show me as the user at that time.
Timelord
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I was told that supplying all the service packs for the purchased version was SW policy. Others (on this forum) have told me that they had to complain about some bug and then they got the service packs. If what you say is true, and SW will not supply service packs for legitimate purchased copies, then I am indeed lucky, although I know several people around town who are on support and I bet they would be willing to help out if I needed it. Another solution would be to buy only one year of support which would most likely get you all the service packs to a single version and then drop the support.
Timelord
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=336
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
The only reason I pay for subscription is to a) have the most recent release b) get bug fixes because I can't fix them myself. And to be fair every once in a while the VAR helps with using some new feature or installation issue that is beyond me.
For day to day I go to the forums.
TOP
TOP
www.engtran.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Day 3 and still no phone call, no email reply, no acknowledgment. Nothing.
I am very tempted to throw out the name of the VAR but I wont.
SW2008 Office Pro SP4.0
Intel Core 2 Duo CPU
2.2GHz, 2.00GB RAM
QuadroFX 3700
SpacePilot
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
If I have a problem I e-mail or call and always get a prompt response. Access to the customer portal area inc forum has given me many tips and other info. I also get free web info via webinars made available by my VAR.
The price paid initially for the Solidworks programme included a fixed price subscription for a number of years forward.
I know this won't be popular, but the current system is fine by me.
Regards
WP
www.whitney-paine.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
--
Hardie "Crashj" Johnson
SW 2008 SP4
Nvidia Quadro FX 1000
AMD Athalon 1.8 GHz 2 Gig RAM
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
ctopher's blog
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether it is popular or not. I am pleased that you are happy with the status quo.
I assume by "unlimited upgrades" you actually mean updates (SPs). An upgrade being a new version of SW. (eg. 2008 to 2009).
In my opinion, the SPs should be free. If you bought a brand new car (or any product) and then discovered it had several defects, would you expect to (and be happy) pay for the fixes?
Also if you are using the VAR tech support, then you are getting value for your subscription cost. For those who do not need (or want) Var tech support, the VARs portion of the subscription is a waste.
I believe it is fair practice to charge, and am quite happy to pay, a yearly SW licence renewal fee providing it entitles me to a new version of SW whenever it is ready for production release; not necessarily yearly.
I would be very happy if, instead of a major yearly release, SW released incremental updates/upgrades to the existing version ... similar to (but hopefully better than) Microsoft does for its products.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I also genuinely think that a lot of effort has gone into the functionality of the SW product and that has cost money. I guess, that I may be unusual in that I negotiated a long term price for the subscription so it is not too big a deal for me.
From SW's point of view, I can't see how it would be economic to deal with loads of versions. Encouraging people to get the latest version, would probably save them money and improve customer satisfaction.
To use the car analogy, you buy a car and it is as it is for the duration of your ownership. After 1-5 years depending on your warranty you are on your own. SW gives you a new car every year if you pay a small proportion of the purchase price.
Also, SW files stored in the newest version will not work on the old. I have never been in this position, but would that not start causing collaboration problems the older your version is? I know that works both ways, but I would not like to ring up a client who has the latest version and tell him that I cannot help because I have got an older one.
Just my view.
WP
Regards
WP
www.whitney-paine.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I used to have to pay a subscription to a specialist insurance computer software/hardware supplier. Their prices went ballistic, but they had us over a barrel so we had to pay. I looked up their accounts and my suspicions were confirmed when I found they were making over a 110% profit.
What is Solidworks profitability? This may give a good indicator as to whether they are profiteering to whatever extent.
Regards
WP
www.whitney-paine.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
I'm forced to pay for that which I don't use--why? I'd like other options.
Often support cannot/does-not answer my questions at all.
Often support cannot/does-not answer my questions on time.
I've got "free" alternatives to support, such as this forum.
Version 2008 was a terrible "upgrade" for many users.
Why meddle in the business of customers who don't find upcoming versions a good match for their business models? Why the punitive treatment? It's an odd thing to bite the hand that feeds you.
For those who find value in the combined services/goods model from SolidWorks, why change anything? But looking at the backlash from customers, there seem to be many, many customers who do not find value in this static model.
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
http://dezignstuff.com/blog/?p=357
Noisy customers!
Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
A people who value security over freedom will soon find they have neither.
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Thanks!
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
ctopher's blog
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
The humans defeat the Zentradi.
SW2008 Office Pro SP4.0
Intel Core 2 Duo CPU
2.2GHz, 2.00GB RAM
QuadroFX 3700
SpacePilot
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Dan
www.eltronresearch.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
SW2008 Office Pro SP4.0
Intel Core 2 Duo CPU
2.2GHz, 2.00GB RAM
QuadroFX 3700
SpacePilot
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
No doubt SW has added functionality, but for me that functionality has been unasked for and largely bypasses the things I do day to day.
It is also no doubt that SW quality and performance has sunk proportionately. And that does affect me on a day to day basis.
But what you are forgetting is that SW has had an ever increasing customer base year by year while the cost of development remains fixed. Not only that but the cost of fixing bugs remains fixed too because there are only so many. The only part of support that increases is the cost of logging the same bug more times as the customer base grows.
Not too many years ago SW was crowing about having 100,000 seats. Now they are over 1/2 million. So just in new software sales they have seen their revenue increase far faster than inflation. 400,000 x 3,995 = 1.6 billion dollars for new seat sales and 1/2 billion dollars a year in subscription fees for the same. A lot of those seats were sold in Europe where prices are double the USA. You can do a lot of bug fixing for those kind of dollars especially when outsourcing the work to India.
I hope you got your subscription deal at some kind of discount.
TOP
TOP
www.engtran.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
We will have to patiently wait to see the result of how SW "are carefully weighing this input and reviewing our overall subscription policies".
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
--
Hardie "Crashj" Johnson
SW 2008 SP4
Nvidia Quadro FX 1000
AMD Athalon 1.8 GHz 2 Gig RAM
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Probably some decisions made there, and also in Connecticut.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
ctopher's blog
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Some products like 3DVia and Cosmos/M are now/were sold through both channels.
Stockholders demand better returns.
Key people like Hirstick and Payne went over in the early days. McEleny is gone. So also many of the early key people in development have gone.
The original leadership present in the buyout days is now largely gone and with them the values of independence from Dassault. The values of independence largely remains with the older users.
TOP
www.engtran.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
Dan
www.eltronresearch.com
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
RE: New subscription punishment policy here
You probably already know this, but the reinstatment fees have been canceled. This is a letter from the SolidWorks executive team:
*************************************************
This note is to clear up any confusion over SolidWorks Subscription policy changes that, if they had been implemented, would have affected a very small percentage of SolidWorks users. It is also to assure you that subscription prices are absolutely not increasing. The subscription price has been constant since our inception and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
We understand that you need to focus on designing better products and improving your business performance, not worrying about software tools or subscription terms.
You may have heard of plans to increase a fee for late subscription payments (and late payments only). Based on valuable input from customers and resellers over the past few weeks, we have decided not to implement these changes. Instead, we are carefully weighing this input and reviewing our overall subscription policies. We have two imperatives in this review: 1) to remain easy for you to do business with and 2) to ensure you receive the best value for your investment. This means that you will continue to gain value from our subscription offerings, and non-subscription customers can rejoin our community any time at an affordable price.
Nothing is more important to us than our relationship with you. We're pleased that your overall satisfaction with our support services and value added-resellers continues to increase and has never been higher, according to our annual independent satisfaction survey of nearly 10,000 customers conducted in July. Although the ratings are good they need to be better, and we will continue to provide better performance, value, and quality throughout our entire product suite and services.
*************************************************