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Sarcasm
10

Sarcasm

Sarcasm

(OP)
After browsing these forums for a while I have noticed a lot of sarcasm in answers.  Maybe some questioners desevre it for posting questions that a little hard work would solve but I have also seen it widespread in response to very good questions/answers.

As an example I recently replied to a thread with an answer that I obtained directly from a data/spec sheet, with my response drawing a sarcastic reply from another poster suggesting I was incorrect.  However it is by no means limited to to that thread - I have noticed it in threads where I am in no way involved in the discussions.

I do not see the reason for it, other than for the "sarcasmee" to feel like a bigger person.

It may be a misunderstanding of cultural differences as these formums have no national limits but I see it as genuine bad manners.

I would be interested in others' opinions on the matter.

RE: Sarcasm

Can you post a few snippets of some of the sarcastic replies that you consider offensive?  While there are some jokers around here, the site moderation is pretty effective at keeping out people/posts that attract sarcasm.

- Steve

RE: Sarcasm

From Wikipedia:
Sarcasm is most often used as an intelligent form of humor to satirically and paradoxilly portray the minutinae and uselessness in some aspects of everyday life. Sarcasm, despite its wounding potential, can help reinforce one's lack of worldliness in a playful, yet pragmatic manner. It can be directed at persons, objects, events, ideologies, establishments, or even with references to history.[8] It is often used as proxy to other forms of expression. For example, instead of becoming angry and yelling at someone in a conflict, a person might choose to use sarcasm as an alternative.

My thought: Emotion is very hard to determine in any electronic communication.  Try to read what the person wrote, not how (emotionally) he wrote it.

 

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Sarcasm

EngAP,

Back in the UK I experienced much higher levels of sarcasm everyday in the office than I usually see here, so I can't say I get offended by the sarcasm too much here.  

Maybe it's a cultural thing, though, there have been responses on this site that would make some of my current colleagues cry.

If a post really offends you then redflag it and let the moderator decide if it's OTT.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Sarcasm

I would think the source would be the "sarcasmer" while the target would be the "sarcasmee."


But, why wouldn't posting a bad question be considered bad manners?  I've seen questions that 10 seconds of Googling would have answered.  So some lazy engineer would rather waste our collective time because he can't be bothered to do a decent websearch, and a smart-ass answer is bad-manners?  There are likewise, dozens of questions each week from lazy students, looking for a handout, and are often met with sarcasm.
 

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Sarcasm

Where I come from sarcasm is the lay of the land, you wouldnt survive the schoolyard if you did not know how to deal with it.

Get over it, they are just words.

RE: Sarcasm

I just looked at the reply you referenced in your initial posts, and I really don't see the big deal.  You won the technical argument in question, and "ummmm" is simply not a red-flaggable offense.

Engineers are a sarcastic bunch.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Sarcasm

I've always thought that a bit of a ribbing (along with the right answer) was part of the price payed for asking a foolish (or lazy) question. I haven't seen much here that I think crosses that barrier.

I've always said, "better the right answer with a little snarkiness than the wrong answer nicely".

My thoughts only, I'm sure it's all because my mother didn't raise me right (grin).

SLH
 

RE: Sarcasm

Start your own message board with only sober and serious postings.  NO TONGUE IN CHEEK OR HYPERBOLE ALLOWED EITHER!  Thus, only correct answers will be displayed.

RE: Sarcasm

I do not follow many of the forums in which you (EngAP) have posted but I have to agree and disagree.  There are many questions which could be answered with little knowledge but are yet posted.  I see some very helpful engineers spending a large amount of their time trying to educate and it is unlikely that they get compensation for the posts here.

I myself have been tempted to post some replies to questions which I feel require a little commonsense and not much else.   

RE: Sarcasm

I think when a person responds to an engineering forum they should do so in a professional manner.  If a person thinks a question is stupid, or a response is inane then they should just ignore it and not post a response.

.

RE: Sarcasm

Everyone has their own level of tolerance, whether they are posting a question or an answer. Some users simply ignore a post that exceeds their tolerance, others post with straight-forward responses, while other use sarcasm.  I don't see a problem with its use.

The Red Flag functionality is available to every user on Eng-Tips and is provided to allow members to self-moderate these forums. If something exceeds your tolerance threshold, Red Flag it and the site administrators will decide if it should be deleted or modified.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Sarcasm

EngAP,

I actually went thru all of your threads (slow at lunch today).  I did not see any sarcasm in your threads.  I did see that one of the engineers that has been most responsive to your posts, getting a little frustrated when trying to answer your questions.  But no sarcasm.

 

RE: Sarcasm

It is obvious from the replies to threads that you have posted that you are thoughtful and considerate.  That's great, but you may need to loosen up a bit.  As noted earlier, sarcasm is a form of intelligent humor, and engineers do tend to be a bit sarcastic.  Do not take it personally.  If it does seem to go to the extreme, red flag it and move on.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: Sarcasm


EngAP,

Hg is right.  Engineers can be a sarcastic bunch.  You've got highly intelligent people here with just enough interpersonal awkwardness to breed some of the best sarcasm.

And sometimes what is intended as humor might come off as sarcastic.  I'll apologize if anything I'VE said seemed sarcastic to you.  I'll assure you that I've got plenty of social ineptitude, but not quite the level of intelligence to pull of really good sarcasm.



 

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Sarcasm

I think its hard to interject any humor into engineering subjects without being dryly sarcastic to some degree.  It hardly works otherwise.  As cass suggests, engineers arn't generally known for interpersonal skills, which rapidly deteriorate when expressed via forum media for most any profession.  Besides, if I was any good at humor, I doubt I'd be an engineer.  So if I'm guilty, you should first try to accept it as an inept attempt at humor and secondly, just a means of emphisizing my point.  If that doesn't work, let me know that you found it to be offensive in some manner and you will more often than not receive my prompt apology, or a further explanation as to why I thought it was justified, in which case you will just have to DEAL WITH IT!

"If everything seems under control, you're just not moving fast enough."
- Mario Andretti- When asked about transient hydraulics
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

RE: Sarcasm

2
Well, according to some old geezer "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit."

Wit is demonstrably in short supply on the Internet, I suggest you treasure every sarcastic reply you get.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Sarcasm

"Wit is demonstrably in short supply on the Internet"

Seems to me that folks here have at least half...

old field guy

RE: Sarcasm

Greg, my history teacher used to say "sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but the highest form of intelligence", not sure where she was quoting from.  Seeing as most people here are pretty intelligent it may explain it.

A lot of it can vary based on personality, which in itself can have cultural underpinnings.  The field of engineering I worked in in the UK was a bit "rough around the edges", a lot of the staff were ex forces or had come up through apprenticeships etc., I've mentioned in other threads that it wasn't very PC.  A lot of the banter there, including sarcasm, would probably offend many members on this site.  

At the end of the day if it upsets you red flag it and/or just don't log back onto that thread or respond to that poster again etc.  Making a response is likely to either end up in flames (which will probably get red flagged anyway) and/or in you getting belittled by some acerbic comments.  In fact I'm surprised that hasn't happened on this thread.

(By the way, is it really an ethical issue?)
 

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Sarcasm

I enjoy making someone the target of my sarcasm, and equally enjoy receiving it.  But I try to adhere to the rule of only being sarcastic to my friends or others who I know also enjoy it.  For instance, my wife doesn't like my brand of sarcasm, so I try not to subject her to it.  Sometimes slip up, and it costs me.  The same rule might apply on this site.  After a while, you get a sense of those who accept sarcasm well and those who don't.  Probably best not to use it on new contributors.

RE: Sarcasm

Further research suggests that the phrase I used doesn't appear to have any particular provenence, although that old wowser Carlyle expressed a similar thought "Sarcasm I now see to be, in general the language of the devil".

Wilde seems to pop up as a possible source, if so he was probably being ironic.

I must admit I don't much like the longer version you use, sarcasm is supposed to hurt (it is derived from Ancient Greek for  "to bite or rend").

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Sarcasm

Greg, thinking about it some more the second part is usually a retort to someone saying the first part.   

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Sarcasm

(OP)
I think my question came across as a moan rather than a question.  I hoped it would start off a debate (which it seems to have done, although mnostly one sided against myself!).  I am not offended myself as I am more than  capable of replying to any sarcasm if I were inclined.  

I have found these forums helpful and do not intend to not read them just because some people are sarcastic.  I just sense a slight level of hostility in debates and was interested in others' opinions.

KENAT - I am not particularly offended, I just do not see the reason for the comments.  It takes someone time and effort to post a sarcastic response when no response would provide as good an answer and would have saved the person (and company?!? time and money).

IRStuff - I agree, I should have stated "sarcasmer".  I also agree with lazy questions don't deserve good answers but I have seen very good questions met with sarcastic/rude responses.  And for any novice in a field, a question they feel is a good one may seem trivial for an expert.

RARMBJ - I agree.

BigInch, csd72, civilperson, GregLocock - I have not found anything offensive, I am wondering the reason behind the tone of the replies.  I have seen it quite a lot and noticed it hadn't been mentioned before so I thought I'd bring it up.


 

RE: Sarcasm

Obvious reason, we are professionals, we are busy, we want a high signal to noise ratio. We participate here voluntarily, on the expectation that other participants are here not trying to waste our time or expend our time /in preference/ to theirs.

So if we see a clueless question, we tend to respond less than politely.

You can rest assured that if you turned up to my desk and persistently acted in a clueless time-wasting fashion the response would be FAR beyond anything you see here.


 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Sarcasm

(OP)
That is my point - if someone is busy then wy waste time replying when not replying at all would save even more time?

RE: Sarcasm

Because it might discourage another time wasting question.

The replies you seem to object to often give me a good laugh, so even if wasted on the OP, hey may be of value to the others who wasted the time to open a useless thread.

Sometimes it is used as a little pain to reinforce the point of a lesson. Painful lessons are the ones we remember most.

Brits and Aussies seem to be much more cruel and accepting of linguistic cruelty than Americans.

The other side of the coin is, when I see overly polite language, I immediately suspect the sincerity and integrity of the poster.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
 

RE: Sarcasm

Ummm

On investigation, it seems I might actually be the sarcasticer in question. Sorry Greg I was ready to credit it to you or Issac.

Ops there I go again with a sarcastic ummm.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
 

RE: Sarcasm

(OP)
Patprimmer - I am not directing this at any particular person, that was just a small example I highlighted.  I am interested in the general tone of a lot of replies.  I was not offended by your remarks and, as you can see, I had the technical information to back up my reply to the questioner.

I would also be interested to know whether this is typical of conversations in the work place.  My company has a good atmosphere so I do not tend to come across much rudeness, however I would be interested in others' experiences.

RE: Sarcasm

Here's a thread pertaining to this subject (if you are so inclined):

Favourite funny answers to threads
thread1088-219172: Favourite funny answers to threads

Perhaps it should have been titled "Favourite sarcastic answers to threads"?
yinyang

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: Sarcasm

EngAP

In fact you didn't have the data to back it up as you will see.

I us that sort of technique in the hope that people will react to themselves with a Duhhh, I should check my facts or think more before I shoot my mouth of. A bit ofa sting does make us more cautious in future.

I do use such methods in the work place and accept such being used against me. In fact if I discover my mistake myself, I will take the P*** from myself. Like I said earlier, I think it is a British/Aussie thing.  

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
 

RE: Sarcasm

EngAP, every good team or close group of people I have ever worked with freely exchanged sarcasm, crude humor and cynicism.  We also knew when we had to reel it in. If I am hit with sarcasm, it makes me rethink what I said or posted, as it acts as a warning flag to let me know that I overlooked something or missed a data point. Much like Pat though, those that didn't partake in the verbal jousting were scrutinized to some degree.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of these Forums?

RE: Sarcasm

pat, I think you're right about the Brit/Aussie thing.  Though that said I got the impression the OP may be a Brit.

Funny thing is although everything here in my part of the US workplace is more PC (or whatever you want to term it) the place back in the UK where you could excpect the kind of sarcasm EngAP doesn't like was a much better work place overall.  If someone was being an idiot you pretty much told them (be it in the form of sarcasm) that, but (with the odd exception) no one took it personal.  Here I waste so much time sugar coating stuff rather than just coming out with it.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Sarcasm

HG

I have to admit when dealing with Americans, I find New Yorkers easier to understand re both accent and culture.

When dealing with Brits I find it easier culturally dealing with Northerners, Scotts and Irish or even Cornish rather than SE.

I agree very much with what Kenat has said.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
 

RE: Sarcasm

Typing a sacastic response will only increase the noise for the thread.  The most effective tool in increase the s/n ratio is to effectively use the Red Flag.

RE: Sarcasm

pat/KENAT,

I do find some brits are overly sensitive to these things, my wife included.  

RE: Sarcasm

I have trouble here in the polite south.  Not just because  I am rude and boorish (most of my childhood & adolescence in the NYC metro area) but because there are aspects of their "politeness" that I would file under, dare I say ummmmm, "lying".

Regarding s/n ratio, a slapdown response may give other well-meaning posters pause before they start contributing to a thread that is already (or deserves to be) in the RF process, and if the thread is not deleted the slapdown may serve as a warning to other useless posters (though the worst of the useless posters won't have bothered looking through prior threads).

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Sarcasm

KENAT,
What's the deal, you have no star.
Usually you get a star just for showing up.

RE: Sarcasm

I've never worked much with North Easteners one of our Directors when I was first here was from Boston.  He was definitely different from the locals but not like back home either.

Also it's all sweeping generalizations, there were people back in the UK that couldn't take it - despite the fact some of them liked to give it.

Pat, I'm a Southerner, must be why we're at loggerheads all the timewinky smile.

monkeydog, not lately, I must be slipping down the MVP list faster than housing prices.

 

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Sarcasm

One for Pat for "or even Cornish".

- Steve

RE: Sarcasm

Like Kenat says, the regional trends thing is really VERY general.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
 

RE: Sarcasm

Like I said "just for showing up".

RE: Sarcasm

Many times, while reading posts, the very first thing I do is put my hands behind my back and think for a while.  My natural impulse is to put a scathing, sarcastic remark similar to many of the ones in "thread1088-219172: Favourite funny answers to threads: Favourite funny answers to threads".  When I first joined the forum, I let a few get by and they were fairly quickly red flagged and removed.  Now I try and keep my posts straightforward and dull, although I do slip some cheekiness in there occasionally.  The red flag process does work. I just won't post anything on a poor post and red flag it instead.

I have also trained myself to always hit the "Preview Post" button first.  It helps to weed out some off-color remarks that get by as well as proofing spelling, etc.



If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

RE: Sarcasm

I just wish I had the nerve to say something sarcastic but I don't have it in me.
That doesn't mean I disapprove of sarcasm, far from it, I enjoy the ready wit and cutting sarcasm (directed at others)  but I just worry too much about upsetting someone if it is me doing it.

There are times I yearn to let rip and I'm sure that occasional "mouth first brain second" incidents would do me some good.

My "mouth first" colleague and I were walking through the engineering office one time on our way to lunch when we passed a bunch of the women secretaries clustered round old "Bert" who was slumped in his chair and doing his best (unconciously) to slide to the floor.
"What's up?" demanded my colleague in a loud voice, "Has Bert died on the job then?" (I think he some double meaning was intended here).

There was a brief silence when it then occurred to my colleague that that was exactly what the tableau suggested and then the secs went back to being Flo Nightingales and ignored my colleague.

As it happened, Bert's funny turn wasn't immediately fatal (just as well as he had not given HR prior notice of an intention to demise in situ). As it also happened, it didn't seem to do my colleagues status any harm at all and a brief "oops!" gesture was all he showed that he might have better said nowt.

On the other hand, had it been my comment I am not at all sure that it would have had the same outcome.

I'm not just being paranoid here, I noted that another colleague, Dave, had a thing for one of the Girl Fridays in the office. He was about as non-PC as you can get and the sexual harassment laws meant nothing to him, nor, it seems, to the company.
He'd say outrageous things and pester her to distraction.
Then one day I was giving a presentation to the assembled staff and asked a question that called for some basic understanding of what we made and sold. I got blank looks from all and sundry except the Girl Friday who made the desired response.

"Come on guys," I said, "even Girl Friday understood." (I supress her real name).
Next morning I got a real chewing out from all and sundry from HR and line managers and well and truly had my card marked.
The problem was that I only meant that Girl Friday's job didn't require her to have any engineering and she got it yet those supposed to have some basic engineering knowledge seemed unequal to the task i.e. my remark was innocent of any malicious derogatory intent nor was it intended to be sexist or demeaning and yet I got clobbered.
Dave who had the maximum deviant intent at all times and under all conditions got away with it day in and day out.

Ce la vie. Lesson learned, don't say or do anything to upset anyone. In the end, the only one that gets hurt is yourself.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Sarcasm

As in many other cases, some people are born with teflon overcoats, not that different than someone who dolphin flip like Phelps.  It's unfair, but people just are not born equal.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Sarcasm

"ummmm"

the sarcasmer... aka Dik

RE: Sarcasm

"Wilde seems to pop up as a possible source, if so he was probably being ironic."

Ouch.  Greg, I thought puns were supposed to be the lowest form of humor.

RE: Sarcasm

As someone who has asked a stupid question on here (maybe more than once), I appreciate the sarcasm. Knocks me down a peg, and makes me think twice before asking a question that might as easily be found, looking in a textbook.

 

V

RE: Sarcasm

I have been of both ends also, and never took offence at receiving, but I did pull my head in and check my facts before my next post and learned to be more cautious in future.

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
 

RE: Sarcasm

Ouch Monkeydog, I thought my wisdom on Red Flaggin if you didn't like it was worth the star alonewinky smile.

Guess most posters just aren't on my intelletual plane, not many of you stoop that low.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Sarcasm

KENAT,
Nope, you are not going to weasel another star from me.  Get that from one of your "Pat's Pub" buddies.

RE: Sarcasm

A lot of the sarcasm is really funny.  It provides much needed comic relief some days.

RE: Sarcasm

I suspect some of the sarcasm stems from the fact that engineers are generally expected to have all the answers. I've been in plenty of meetings and on job sites where when a question is raised that nobody knows an answer to, it's "Where's the engineer?" If the engineer doesn't have the answer (or a fast/easy way to figure it out), everybody acts as though they have failed. I think this can easily lead to a somewhat arrogant sterotype. The engineer acts as though they know everything and have everything under control, because that is what the public expects. I think the sarcasm may reflect this trend.

Admitting that something takes a bit of work or that you don't know something and can't figure it out is just not acceptable for engineers, from the public point a view.

I don't mean to offend anybody or perpetuate a sterotype that engineers are arrogant. Just my 2 cents +/- $0.02.

-- MechEng2005

RE: Sarcasm

Quote:

but that doesn't mean there aren't any idiots masquerading as engineers
Hundreds of 'em, and frequently with piles of letters after their names except these "BSc (Common Sense)"

RE: Sarcasm

I love sarcasm.
And no, I am not being sarcastic

RE: Sarcasm

There's plenty of uneducated idiots.  Quite often the school of hard knocks takes its toll on cognitive function.

RE: Sarcasm

Hell, there's a few of us educated idiots around toowinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Sarcasm

Everyday that goes by someone shows me something I don't know.  By the time I retire, I expect to be a complete idiot.  Sarcasm is simply me screaming on the way down.

RE: Sarcasm

RVSWA,

The minute you stop finding things you dont know is probably the minute you die. Life is a journey not a destination.

RE: Sarcasm

Looked in the rules and "mollycoddle the poster" was not there.  Sorry, that was a bit sarcastic wasn't it? big smile  Just messin' with ya. smile

RE: Sarcasm

Most sarcastic responses to posts on this board are well deserved in my opinion, as they are usually responding to rather vague questions or questions the original poster could have found the answer to if he or she bothered to do some research.

RE: Sarcasm

My 2 cents here is that eng-tips posters are extremely helpful, courteous, professional, etc. , sarcarm included. Do you ever look at, for example, Youtube comments & messages?  It's thoroughly disgusting to see how unsupervised (un moderated) "adults" will act...

tg

RE: Sarcasm

The only cure for sarcasm is humility.

RE: Sarcasm

rhodie,

   

Quote:

The only cure for sarcasm is humility.

   ...by the person who would otherwise be sarcastic, right?

                        JHG

RE: Sarcasm

Humility in the target also makes one a less appealing target.  Sarcasm is often aimed at those who seem to need to be brought down a notch.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Sarcasm

....but never are.
More often, those who are targeted are those with the thickest skins.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Sarcasm

Am I missing something? There seems to be the implication that sarcasm is a bad thing.

RE: Sarcasm

sar·chasm ('sär-"ka-z&m) : The giant gulf (chasm) between what is said and the person who doesn't get it.

RE: Sarcasm

To paraphrase an Arthur C Clarke observation,
"Sarcasm is the art of never being unintentionally rude."  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

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