Salary??
Salary??
(OP)
I was wondering if anyone has checked out http://www.salary.com . If so, what do think of the salary ranges they list for your profession?
I thought they were somewhat high for a mid-level civil engineer. But I really have not paid to much attention to the job market past few years. I would appreciate other people’s opinions.
I thought they were somewhat high for a mid-level civil engineer. But I really have not paid to much attention to the job market past few years. I would appreciate other people’s opinions.





RE: Salary??
Well, according to salary.com I'm not making enough money for where I am and what I do (New York City). And I seem to be behind web page designer III and fishmonger.
Nothing like a salary survey to turn one's stomach... The numbers seem to be a lot higher than those in Civil Engineering News' annual salary survey. The reason is most likely that you might pay salery.com money to find you a better job to match their stats. Concerning Civil Enigneers, salary.com doesn't say anything about professional registration - which we all know is the most important factor in an engineer's career path, so my advice would be to look elsewhere for such stuff as salary.com should have done better research... Apparently all one needs to be a CE III is a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience to make near $100k a year in New York City. Compared to $70 grand in Florida. Geographically speaking, $100k in NYC is darn good money, and just enough to get yourself a better-than-average place to live - and it's relatively modest if you're in the company of 22-year old bankers who spend that much on lunch in a years' time. In Florida, $70k a year will have one living like a king - and that includes a house, boat, car, year-round DisneyWorld passes.
RE: Salary??
jproj
RE: Salary??
RE: Salary??
Salary.com is hopeless...it says that investment analysts get bonuses of ~$2000 on top of a base salary of $55000. Bankers get around 30-90% of their renumeration from bonuses. Bankers are famous for bitching about their bonuses too. I have a friend who quit his job at salomon smith barney as an analyst because his bonus was "only" $10k in his first year out of college. The fact that salary.com doesn't know about this smacks their credibility with the kiss of death.
RE: Salary??
RE: Salary??
RE: Salary??
I think part of the reason for the relative low pay, is due to our chosen profession. The work we do is supposed to be rewarding enough that we don't care about the salary. Right? At least that's how I got brained washed.
The owner of the company will try to stay competitive and to maximize the profit by always try to give the lowest salary to keep an engineer. Else, an engineer can be replaced since there are plenty of others that's will to work for cheaper rate.
I guess after closed to 10 years of experience, I'm ready to make a transition from being an engineer to something else, yet without abandoning all my background. So instead of wasting my energy on worry about the salary, I'm concentrating on what I want to do with my work experience and to make it profitable.
RE: Salary??
If you had an MBA with a finance focus in addition to the above qualifications, you could enter with a firm at the associate level at $180k (at Salomon Smith Barney for instance).
The reason engineers and other sci/tech people have these opportunities is that a lot of investment houses are getting into "financial engineering" which entails some pretty hard core financial simulations...hedge funds - of which there are 8000 now in the US - are the biggest growth market for this kind of thing.
It has dried up a bit now post dot-com, but the next boom can't be too far away...
Having said that, I understand the work is not particularly satifying, and the pressure is unrelenting. Additionally, all banking/finance involves a degree of theft...its how they manage to pay themselves so well.
I am personally vexxed about wall street. The scarceness of pay in engineering fustrates me to the point of wanting to quit, but on the other hand I both enjoy the work, and believe in what it does for the world. Hmmmm...
RE: Salary??
One advice/question I often give to people studying for his or her PE license is, "After all the effort and eventually you got your PE license, what's next? What are you going to do with your PE?"
I guess that is the key is continuoulsy learning and advancing and seeking opportunities. Engineers tend to have the personality that are conservative and avoid risks. Observing from various places I worked, I see engineers get too comfortable within in a corporate environment, and get even more passive each year. Ambition was replaced by negative out look. The negativity was justified by the so-so salary. The poor salary fuels the passive outlook. What a vicious cycle!
I started out with structural engineering just because the product is something tangiable. I had the imagery of the engineers in the early 1900s who built bridges, railroad tracks, and etc. Lots of hard work, but imagine all the bridge tolls and train tickets the engineer/prospector will get once the project completes! Not only the idea sounds lucrative and beneficial to society at the time, imagine all the advantures involved!
Well, the idea interested me back in college(s), until I realize that the industrial age switched to the informational age of today, and that the government runs the bridges and transportation infraustructures. Enough said, I guess I have to think of something else.
Ludvik, if you are vexed about wall street, I urge you to learn and study more about the field. I have a chemical enginner coworker/roomate from Bechtel who later joined Charles Swab and he is loving where he is now. He started as a market analyist, to project spectulating now. Making money for the company and taking the spare change home is his motivation now.
Fortunately, there are plenty of low-wage engineering jobs around. Even if even if engineering work is out, I guess there is always minimum wage drafting work. So why not seek Wall Street related experience utilizing your structureal background) a try, and rest assure that you can always fall back on the safety factor of grunt-work engineering if investing didn't interest you.
RE: Salary??
What are you getting at when you ask people what they are going to do with their PE? I mean, isn't it kind of obvious? You just do whatever you were going to do otherwise only you get to sign drawings.
Did your chemical engineer friend who now works for Charles Schwab get his MBA, or did he just jump into it? What's his/her story?
My attraction to wall street is primarily the money, but it would have some other cool things about it too. You mentioned railroads...JP Morgan back in the late 19th century through his financing of the railroads was able to shape the economy of the united states on a macro level. He got to decide where towns would be, which industries would make it which wouldn't, and more or less how the economy of the nation would run for the next half century. I find this "economic engineering" aspect appealing.
THere are of course a great deal in the finance world that I find decidedly unappealling. I understand there is a lot of yelling that goes on. Junior analysts, no matter how sturdy their constitution, are invariably torn to shreds and miserable as a result. There is also all kinds of power politics that I could live without to boot.
Consulting engineering, whilst chronically underpaid, is also very gentlmanly and thoughtful. There really isn't much in the way of yelling, and that is something I like.
I would appreciate any further insights this forum could provide.
RE: Salary??
I’ve worked with great engineers who have this type of persona. I give thanks to these old-timers, for I’ve learned so much. That company will give its employee a gold Rolex watch for 25 years of continuous service. Hence, you know one must be a good engineer and has not gotten layoff when you see the Rolex watch. Still, even with all the years and great reputation, poor salary and job stability were the major complaints.
If one is perfectly happy with ones work and like doing similar things for living and the stability, then it’s great!
Okay, I hope that no one is offended and that was just me trying to act like a jerk. As a jerk I would add, “I’m interviewing three more licensed engineers looking for work this afternoon, aren’t you going on vacation soon and do you mind sharing your desk space with another engineer?” In reality, we are all replaceable and the PE doesn’t give one super-natural power. Hell! Even one of my best friends just got a PE in civil engineering after working years in construction management, and his degree was B.S. Mechanical Engineering!
As I recalled, my friend was always interested with stocks and calculations associated with investment, where I was interested with the project leadership and operation side. Just like I did, he just does not seeing himself working at the same environment for the next 25 years with poor moral. Seeing me with night classes, my chemical engineer friend started attending night classes for his MBA while working as an engineer. As I recalled our Chief discouraged our schooling since we started to refuse overtime work.
So now, I would joke around with my chemical engineering friend that with our ‘unique’ background and interests, we should start something such as a micro beer brewery together. He’ll define the plant process, I’ll have it design and built and make it run, while my mechanical engineering friend can do the quality control in the tasting room? This way, we will fully utilize what we do well while we embark on something new and fun. Furthermore, we’ll be creating job for the engineering students as well?
As for yelling in the financial world, I say there are plenty of yelling anywhere if one gets high enough in the profession. The yelling actually gets louder as the dollar amount involved increases! As an engineer, I constantly get yell at and insulted and falsely accused by the grand big boss, contractors, estimator, schedulers, permit offices, politicians, lawyers, public, clients, and the list goes on and on. At the end and no matter what profession it is, it is how professional you are, when handling the yelling that’s what counts.
I am not saying that one should just quit being an engineer now. What I’m suggesting is, one need to pay ones dues, become a professional, be well rounded in every aspect besides engineering, and so to create more opportunity for oneself, whether it’s engineering or evolve into something as a result of it.
RE: Salary??
What are todays opinions of salary.com? I've been looking around and I'm getting the impression that their basic survey is optomistic.
Any thoughts?
--
Joseph K. Mooney
FAA DER Structures
RE: Salary??
Hg
RE: Salary??
----------------------------------------
Work Hard and Work Smart.
RE: Salary??
TTFN
RE: Salary??
I did work for this company as an employee a few years ago and the numbers I saw from salary.com would be in line with the salary I was making then.
RE: Salary??
RE: Salary??
We are all at fault for our own wages. Just take a look at all of the other professions and you will see that engineers tend to undercut their own peers and hire for less. They think that since they are engineers that any one can do their job.
This is not the case - if it was not for engineers there would be no back bone to build on. So start to unite and work together to make engineering the number one career and stop undercutting each other. You do not see two law firms bitting on the same project coming at half price, it is always the same. But engineers and engineering companies just kill each other.
Also by the way age has nothing to do with skills and capabilities - if an engineer is 30 years old or 50 that does not mean the 50 year old guy should make more... The 30 year old guy could have gotten a lot more experiance and be a lot more capable and should make more....
With technology and todays enviromrnt experiance does not directly go with age but the persons ability to learn and involvment in project, applications and his/her skills...
I personally thing that engineers should be paid more than even salary.com reports and I know of few that do make more...
Think about this - In GREEK times they already new this - the art of managing few is the same as the art of managing many. It only takes more organization... So why do the salaries for the Presidents of large companies are so much more than for small when the job is basically the same, as all engineers would point out. Simple demend and supply and because they can get it.
So in conclusion, Engineers get what you can and never short yourslef short since no one can do your job and do not let some bean counter tell you that there is. If there was than they would already have him or her.
RE: Salary??
Most engineers work on salary or a pseudo hourly salary. I like to point out that management sees us as a commodity. We submit a requisition to HR to hire. I want this very specific experience. I get résumé’s from HR for everyone with any of those words. Management says to hire five electrical engineers by Friday. When the project is nearing completion, management says to cut six civil/structural engineers by Friday. We are regarded as a commodity.
Project managers bid the jobs with too little information and an overly optimistic schedule requirement from the customer. They negotiate the change-orders, expand the work, ... thus project managers make the bigger bucks. So does the comptroller who manages the cash flow, etc.
Sales people often work on commission. All of their effort is at their own risk and their rewards are their rewards.
Engineers go to work, do their 40 hours, likely expect to get paid to work during a crunch. They do not expect to get cut when work is slow.
BTW, age can have a lot to do with skills and capabilities. You are on the right track if you are acknowledging that there is a big difference between an engineer with 20-years experience and an engineer with one-year experience - 20 times. It is possible for the 30 year old guy to have more experience or be more capable than the older engineer. Not as likely as you may think but possible.
The younger, aggressive, capable engineer is definitely more eligible for promotion. So, you must ask yourself, is that you? Are you that aggressive capable engineer; or are you happy to draw that salary and put in your 40?
John
RE: Salary??
I couldn't believe that I've actually written all that stuff two years ago. It's been more than 10 years in the civil engineering field for me now. Since then, I became a Project Engineer, Lead Field Inspector, Resident Engineer, and now I'm a Senior Transportation Engineer but working as a Contract Manager responsible for hiring and managing Consultants. I now worked closely and have interviewed and dealt with competence among engineers of various disciplines, landscape architect, public and private individuals, right-of-way agents, surveyors, lawyers, etc.
What I said years ago still hold true, especially now I got to see all the consultants' books and how much the engineers are actually getting paid, as well as the companies overhead costs.
As for professional developement, I went ahead and actually got my general contractor's license, both in General Engineering as well as Building trades. That means now, not only can I design buildings, highway, tunnels, dams, parks, piers, etc., I can actually building them myself as the Prime.
I want starting my own company in the near future, once I have a better vision of the future market trends. Meanwhile, I'm planning on getting certified as Project Manager Professional under www.pmi.org as well as a better understanding about the financial side of the business, a.k.a. the sciences of making sales and making deals.
After reading my previous postings, I found it amuzing. I guessed it's age. I realized that as engineers, we are constantly evolving, for survival. The key is having a balance professional and personal life. The last few years, I managed to get married, handled the death of my dear father and his finances, managed my mom's depression and health issues, dealt with my mother-in-law and father-in-law's deaths, blessed with a collic but now happy 20 month old daughter that makes me a better person, managed the mortgage payments with sigle income, etc. Always a daily struggle to improve both professionally and personally. The key is to have a good attitude?
I took the salary test recently and found out that I'm at the 75% range. The funny thing is, that is still not enough given where I live in the San Francisco bay area. I do get jealous, knowing that it only takes consultants to make the same amount in 6 months. However, the trade off is the consultant might be out of a job for the next 6 months or so. Job stability and insurance for the family does take priority over my personal ambition, and perhaps prevents me from starting my own firm.
Nevertheless, now I try to help whenever I see an eager aspiring engineer. I have no problem taking time to show anyone around who has to desire to become professional, given that I was once that person.
RE: Salary??
As you probably have surmized, I am shopping around right now. My current job was a great opportunity 5 years ago. However, I have a young family now and what was good back then is just not meeting my needs right now. It's a good group I work with so I'm not going to go into the "gory details", but it is time for me to move on.
I've been on four in person interviews so far, three of which, I rejected. One of those three was a large company that is currently up for sale. So, I had no way of knowing if the benefits they were quoteing were going to remain, plus the salary they wanted to offer was about 12K less than what salary.com says I should be making. I can hardly move move my family half-way across the country for that. As for the other two, one looked like I was going to be on call 24 hours a day supporting a well-known airline and the other just looked boring, they wanted a manager type that could do engineering on occasion. I rather like being an engineer.
I've got two other interviews in my future. One is a follow up with the company I haven't rejected and the other is with an aircraft manufacturing firm that is "rising from the ashes" as it were. The latter looks like it would be very cool, but it's kind of far away. The former is directly related to what I do, is probably a better choice as a place to finish up my career, and is located about halfway between my wife's parent's New Jersey and Florida homes. Both potential employers like the fact that I'm not only an engineer with a graduate level degree, but I have experience as an aircraft mechanic (how I put myself through school).
The big things that are driving my decision right now are: 1) A salary appropriate to what an engineer of my skill level should be making - no more and certainly no less.
2) A good benefits (medical, dental, 401(k), etc.) plan
3) Enough stability and opportunities for personal growth that I can finish my career at this place. That way, my kids don't have to move around like I did growing up and can have friends they've known all thier lives, etc.
Sorry for rambling...I guess I just needed to purge. Nothing against who I'm working for right now, they're just not what I need at this station in my life. With any luck, I hope to be able to find my replacement before I leave.
--
Joseph K. Mooney
FAA DER Structures
RE: Salary??
http://w
Offshoring Said to Zap Electrical Engineers' Wages
Thu Dec 23, 2004 05:46 PM ET
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Electrical engineers have come in for a shock: for the first time in more than three decades of technological innovation, their salaries are dropping.
The median salary of an electrical engineer working in the United States fell $1,500 in 2003, according to a survey released this week by the IEEE-USA, a membership organization of 225,000 engineers. It was the first drop since the group started tallying data in 1972.
"These results are disturbing, but not surprising," IEEE-USA President John Steadman said in a statement. The group blamed a combination of offshore outsourcing, competition from foreigners on guest worker visas, and rising health insurance costs.
The drop contrasts with growth in overall U.S. personal income of more than 3 percent in 2003.
Electrical engineers, who were critical to the development of the personal computer, the cellular phone and the Internet, have seen their salaries rise commensurate with the importance of electronics in society. Ten years ago, the median salary was $67,000. By 2002, that had grown to $101,000.
In 2003, the median wage dropped to $99,500.
The decline bolsters claims that the move by some U.S. employers to relocate technology jobs to places like India and China is squeezing local employees.
"It's tough for someone to go demand a raise when they know they could lose their job overseas," said IEEE-USA spokesman Chris McManes.
© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?