Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
(OP)
i thought i'd pass along a site that i saw a year or so ago and recently visited again. it's a rather in-depth "diary" of the problems one homeowner is having with their home. in an ironic twist, i visited a project site that we got a call to perform testing on new fill but apparently the fill was already being placed. the "developer/contractor" told me today that the old undocumented fill (10'+) and old storm aluminized steel pipe under a planned building pad was no problem because the structure would act just like a house and float up there...huh.
anyway, this site is worth passing around to your collegues. it might be worth keeping in the back of your mind the next time you're on a project site. if anyone happens to know the congressman for the area of this falling-in house, it sure would be a good deed to put in a good word for this person (by the way, i have no connection to them personally). this is sort of my "good deed" by passing the website link along.
http://www.justanotherlemon.com/CCFL/pulte.htm
anyway, this site is worth passing around to your collegues. it might be worth keeping in the back of your mind the next time you're on a project site. if anyone happens to know the congressman for the area of this falling-in house, it sure would be a good deed to put in a good word for this person (by the way, i have no connection to them personally). this is sort of my "good deed" by passing the website link along.
http://www.justanotherlemon.com/CCFL/pulte.htm






RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
1. The house was built on soils which were not specifically tested for susceptibility to expansive soil actions. I should think the subdivision was tested for expansive soil susceptibility, however this may not have found the issue at this site. If the issues were known, and the design was not carried out to address this, my following points are moot.
2. The home owner's reaction has been emotive and aggressive. The builder may have failed in their duty of care, however simply rejecting all possible remediation in favour of pressing for a buy-back is not condusive to a solution.
3. The professional reports have been thorough and well measured in their advice. The option 3 solution would likely result in an effective repair, and a home without expansive soil issues. The cracked windows are the only point which may complicate this, however coupled with greater drainage as required by the proposed solution, this should also be aleviated.
4. The home owner's insurance situation is something the owner has grabbed onto and repeats numerous times. I would find it hard to believe that the home, once repaired in accordance with the selected option 3 proposal, would not be insurable. I would be very interested to hear anyone who could explain how or why this might be the case.
At the end of the day this home will never be this person's dream castle... But I think that Pulte should be given the opportunity to repair the home in accordance with the professional advice they have received. If I were the home owner I would press for an extension of the warranty to cover cosmetic defects for 18 months after the work scheme were carried out. Also the timber I-joists should be recertified by the manufacturer (through repair or inspection) or otherwise replaced. Beyond this I do not believe the owner's emotive responce has been at all helpful.
Residential home owners make the most difficult clients. They want to pay for a a Suzuki Swift and get a Rolls-Royce... It just doesn't work that way in real-world economics.
Anyone else have an opinion on this case?
Cheers,
YS
P.S. Please remember my very first point and the caveat regarding the builder having not known about the expansive soils before you post a reply to my comment.
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
It would be interesting to know the final outcome of this case.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
i think the homeowner has every right to be outraged. these are not even remotely close to "cosmetic" problems in my opinion...these are a slow and agonizing failure of the structure on multiple fronts. situations like this are exactly why my firm doesn't deal with residential work. the vast majority of developers are only concerned with high profits, cutting corners, do not perform necessary design/analysis/testing related to the site or structure,etc. the only line of defense is the building inspector which may be doing (or even able to do) little in the way of helping the future homeowner. the inspector is on site on a limited basis and is no engineer. the times i've dealt with neighborhood developments, i was shocked to learn how much profit the developers make on each lot and then to see what kind of crap they put in/under houses.
i think the homeowner should be "difficult" because the developer will do everything possible (legal or otherwise) to keep from having to fix all the problems. if the developer makes a minor so called "fix", they will then be able to say "see, i've put all this time/money in to fixing the problem so i'm done". the homeowner is the lone sheep with limited funds while the developer has a team of high paid lawyers and deep pockets.
i would like to hear how the issurance company can get away with dropping coverage since that seems very shady...i'd consider filing a complaint with the better business bureau since this sort of situation is exactly what insurance is for...they should not be allowed to drop coverage due to this one house.
as far as the contract, i'm sure it's like every other contract...intentionally long, infused with lawyer jargon, disclaimers, etc. unfortunately, the homeowner did sign it. however, the homeowner may still have a case if it was not written in a manner that is understandable to the homeowner. the homeowner is not a lawyer or engineer or otherwise and has a right to not be taken advantage of. on a flipped argument, a homeowner's real estate agent should be there to help the homeowner avoid some of those landmines. either way, given the age of the house and the resulting destruction that is occurring, the developer should be fully liable to purchase the house back from the owner. i could see how this sort of language would apply to some situations but may also be construed as unreasonable given the damage that has occurred...i think a court might throw this part out of the contract.
if i recall correctly, there are little known laws that protect the residential home owner from poor foundation conditions...it seems like i remember being told that it covers 10 years (i don't recall exactly and have never researched this but i was told this by a geotech professor).
overall, this case is a sad example of how the system has failed the homeowner and is exactly why developers should be required to follow a structured exploration, design, and testing program similar to commercial building construction (at least on a small scale) and should be required to stand behind the homes they sell. while the developer would likely try to put their responsibility back on the engineer and testing firms, at least we (engineers) have the ability to have our lawyers look over the contracts and negotiate the terms of the contract. the down side is that the developers would expect to continue making massive profits and would simply pass the costs on to the homeowners...but when they wouldn't be able to sell the higher priced houses, maybe it'd require them to lower prices and make a more reasonable profit.
the fact is that the homeowner is unknowing about the tactics developers use to protect themselves legally, shouldn't be expected to be a geotechnical engineer when buying a house, and should be able to expect that someone will fix these problems. usually, the person fighting for the homeowner would be the insurance company. i think a court would decide in the favor of the homeowner (assuming the homeowner could afford a good lawyer) if a case was filed against the developer. also, the insurance company should be put in the fire too...hell, maybe the insurance company should be put in the fire first since they are the ones that should be making the fight for the homeowner.
by the way, i purchased my house before i became an engineer and am certain i signed papers that say more or less the exact same thing this person signed. i did have the experience from being a contactor to know not to buy a house that was not located in a fill area. having now spent several years as a geotechnical engineer seeing all the ugly problems and dealing with such leagal issues, i am able to see that my contract says a bunch of foolish things....i dare some of you to pull your contracts and read it line by line while sitting next to a lawyer. the reality is that i'm willing to bet even highly experienced folks (engineers, architects, etc) could easily end up in the same situation...who would be there to protect you and what would you do in the event everyone left you to fight for yourself?
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
Obviously there are flaws which are in need of repair, however unless you assume that the builder has done something incorrectly on purpose (and I do not; please refer to my first post), this is not a cause for buy-back.
The repairs would have been done over a year ago had access to the home been permitted... But no; Instead the home owner refused to permit the repairs and has continued campaigning for the only acceptable solution (in her mind): The re-purchase of the home.
Just look at the dates involved! A quick summary:
- Date of closing: 12 June 2006.
- Date first issue noted: 11 July 2006.
- September: Pulte inspects; They concluded there was no fundamental problem.
- October: Pulte inspects: Oops; Might be something to this complaint (Engage PEs)
- November through December: Inspections and on-site testing.
- January: Reports to Pulte from Professional Engineers engaged.
- 11 February 2007: Pulte offers a viable structural/geotechnical solution.
- ?? February 2007: Home owner rejects repairs and demands buy-back.
Before you criticise or jump on any band wagons: How many of you would have caught the trouble faster than October (Two months after first complaint; Pretty fast really!), given that you would only be seeing sticking doors in a home with a floating slab.
Including inspections, testing, consultation and professional services work (with how busy we all are!), everything was addressed, reported back, decided upon and corrective actions offered by Pulte on 11 Feb 2007. Perhaps it could have been faster, however this is ONLY 7 months after the first complaint. And at this point Pulte was willing to do significant works, offered to house the owner in alternative accommodation, pay a meals stipend, as well as permit access to the home while under construction. Short of guaranteeing a negative pressure workspace I can't see what more they could have done.
Oh, and the date stamp, Google cache and internet archive all indicate that the website is from MAY 2007. Thus the homeowner was offered a fully workable solution, with alternative accommodation as well as meals, AND REFUSED IT.
This is almost certainly not a black and white issue, and YES, I do think it is unfortunate that it has happened...
But I do not accept that this woman is the down-trodden victim to be pitied and Pulte the evil mega-corp to be harassed and badgered.
Just my honest, impartial, opinion given even the one sided account fully intended to make me conclude the opposite. I wonder what is not written on the site that might further clarify the situation?
Regards,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
if it were my house, i'd expect a complete fix...which would end up costing more than the value of the house...so yes, they developer should buy it back. heck, if it's all just cosmetic issues and there's really no serious problems, then obviously the house would have appreciated in value over the years and the developer could then turn around and sell the house for the same price or more than they sold it originally.
and i've never personally seen a developer willing fix such a mess of a house so i think being a raging hell of a woman will probably see more actual results. but what do i know...it's all just my opinion. we shall agree to disagree on the matter then.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
If you hold zero expertise in a particular area and are relying on the builder/developer to build a house properly as well as perform the necessary tests on soils, etc. to ensure satisfactory performance(which I think we can all agree should be done on any home, but people expect more on expensive ones and rightfully so - a home is the largest investment most individuals in the free world make in their lifetime).
When someone has just invested such a LARGE sum of money in a brand new home and the home has serious problems such a short time after completion of construction, I don't believe that the homeowner has any responsibility to give the builder the benefit of the doubt for any fixes that could occur. The homeowner has no reason to believe that the fix will be carried out with greater care than the original construction (and I would argue that the homeowner would be foolish to believe that it would be).
Additionally, I think we can all agree that engineers are not infallible, and to believe that the recommendations provided (even if executed properly) would have completely remediated the problem (and not just provided a temporary bandaid to get past any additional warranty period provided) might be naive at best and stupid at worst. I am not saying that any of the reccommendations would be purposefully inappropriate, but we all know mistakes happen and after just experiencing that severe of a problem I know I certainly wouldn't be giving anyone the benefit of the doubt - especially on the investment that I'll be paying a large portion of my salary for over the next 30 years of my life.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
1. Read her site for the details between the lines. The house is only in this advanced state of disrepair because she has refused access to correct the issue.
2. I am not qualified to comment as to whether or not the crush box option would work, and I simply accept the Geotechnical report's findings in absence of my own specialist knowledge in the field. If you believe that the geotechnical report has been written to simply provide a "band aid" solution, then you are presuming the engineer has worked in bad faith. I do not make that assumption of my fellow professionals.
3. The practice of specific geotechnical testing and reporting for each site at a subdivision would add substantially to the cost of new homes... And save very few homes from difficulties. The public at large are not willing to support this cost.
Has anyone else thought of the possibilities that this home was bought and the PEAK of the housing market, and now the owner wants out above anything else because of the market loss irrespective of the possibility of repair.
Seven months. AND the damage at that point was nowhere near this severe when the solution was offered. Pulte is fully within their right to withhold correction for damages which have occurred after they offered to correct the problem.
Regards,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
I just want to be clear that I was not referring to you as stupid. I certainly respect your opinions and posts, I just happen to disagree with this one.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
as i mentioned earlier, we will have to agree to disagree...i happen to think that the developer was only looking at turning a big profit as usual and figured that if a problem did come up, all the legal lingo in the contract would save their butt from having to deal with it (plus the more time they can put between them and the problem, the better off they are)...and unfortunately that is the big developer way more often than not.
as far as site investigations and footing design for big residential projects, it is "required" here but is a joke. it might be 50 acres with a few borings...may or may not be testing of placed fill. that doesn't even remotely address the later issues of utilities, footings, etc. the only times i've seen this truly enforced is if the structure is a 3+ story residential apartment (and that's only in one county as far as i can remember...could be a few others but definitely not all). i think the residential code enforcement should be dramatically ramped up...i also think commercial should be more stringent even though it (not implying contractor practices in general) has improved to some degree over the past couple years.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
Even if the owner resisted having the geotechnical work done after the builder identified the risk, in my opinion that does not relieve the builder of risk, just makes the owner a contributor. Legally, that situation would lead to different outcomes in different jurisdictions.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
Excellent point with the car analogy. If this were a car, you'd get a brand new one or get your money back to buy a different one, you would NOT get everything that is wrong fixed. It would definitely qualify as a lemon. I fail to see why a more expensive investment should be treated differently. If anything the requirements should be more stringent as the investment increases. A $300k house is about 10x the investment of a pretty nice car that most would purchase.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
But I would like to hear from the builder also. There's two sides of every story and I bet there's a doozy of another side to this one.
I'm sure the builder doesn't want to set a precedent. But it seems like in a large development and in this economy, there are probably a few houses they can't sell. Offer to move her into one of these and walk away. As a condition of this settlement make her discontinue the website. Don't they see how much bad publicity this is causing?
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
I was looking to buy a house in a development in Australia. The developer was reputable and seemed to be doing all the right things.
The problem was that is was on 10m of fill over alluvial soil and even though there was a very good compaction procedure specified in the supplied geotech report I knew that it would never be perfect.
Sometimes, regardless of what you do with the foundations some things happen, but the risk should be borne by those that stand to make a profit rather than the purchaser.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
YS, the builder definetly should have a geotech through out the grading process etc. It doesn't add that much to the cost. In a lot of areas it is required and they know how to deal with it, sounds like they were just trying to save money in this area. They might add 2 to 5 thousand dollars to the building cost for geotech investigation and testing and observation for grading and post grading depending on the subdivision size and grading complications. Sure would have saved them some headackes.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
More to the point, I wonder how many of you have actually read through the site, or bothered to look at the timeline? Reading your posts I doubt many have...
I had the examct same reactions: Shock, horror, sympathy, anger at the builder, etc, etc, etc. That is until I noticed the dates and read the Geotechnical report.
As far as I am concerned this woman has robbed herself of any recourse when she rejected the builder's repair proposal. From that point on, I would think, the continuing deterioration cannot be held to be 100% the builder's. Also, the house was not very damaged at this time.
SO, yes, if the damage up to this point had occured without the builder having tried to fix the problem, I too would be insistant upon buy-back. It would be, as many of you have said, a house not fit to be described as the new home the person purchased... But that is simply not the case.
JedClampett's point about two sides is the most measured responce yet... But I suppose I'll just have to live with having a difference of opinion from the rest of you.
Regards,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
And please don't misunderstand my personal position on the use of Geotechnical Engineers; I think that a Geotech should be involved in each and every project involving new or existing foundations, no exceptions. Unfortunately in a number of areas this just that isn't the reality for residential construction. Probably a case of irrational economics in play, but they're out there playing none the less.
Cheers,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
i think that large "neighborhood" developers should be required to have a geotech on board and provide the necessary documentation on the lots. unfortunately, there's always the dirt cheap geotech that will provide paper on anything for a buck...but that's a different discussion.
i do like the analogy with a car dealer...if you drive off the lot and the think clunks out, transmission falls out, wheels fall off, and radiator blows a gasket, it would not be acceptable for the dealer to say "well, let me put that stuff back on your car and we'll get you back on the road"...that would be absolutely unacceptable...they would be taking the car back and giving me a brand new one. a simple "fix" would not work for me.
pulte would be better off giving the lady her money back plus any legal/engineering fees she has incurred (plus maybe a cash settlement for her troubles) with terms that she must take down the website and keep her mouth shut. i just wonder how many potential homeowners have turned away from a pulte house due to this one single case. and perhaps this is a single unfortunate case and maybe pulte is getting a bad name for nothing...but i doubt it and everyone can rest assured that i'll never own a pulte house and i'll be sure to recommend to everyone i know that they not buy a pulte home due to this one case...at least at this point...if they took care of this woman and did the right thing, then maybe i'd reconsider my stance.
and ys, there's nothing wrong with having different opinions with anyone (or any group). if we all thought the same exact thing, we probably wouldn't be here talking to each other and the world would indeed be a bland place to live. i am often "in the minority" with my opinions and that's fine with me...sometimes it turns out that i'm 100% correct and sometimes maybe not. the toughest opinion to have is the "unpopular" one but it's almost always best to stick with what your gut tells you. and as noted, i can see your argument but i respectively disagree.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
On the subject of insurance, what insurable event should cover the damage? If the house is not being repaired, why shouldn't the insurance drop coverage since it wil be more likely to be damaged during an event and difficult to disprove damage was not caused by an insurable event.
When I was doing forensic work, many times the homowner made a stink about improper maintenance not being paid by the insurance company. A 20 year old asphalt roof will leak and will be damamged by a hail event but the roof was already shot and needed replaced anyway. Homeowner just does not understand why they get nothing. The visible damage had to be worth something.
A property owner has a duty to mititate damages and this homeowner is not mitigating but compounding. Your remedy for a contract disput is the damages. Fix it and sue for the cost of the fix, plus the perceived loss of value of a fixed house.
If houses were cars, they would be worthless after 10 years. Apples and oranges.
If you cannot understand your contract, pay someone to protect your interests or pay later when you get screwed.
I am neither pro-builder or pro-consumer. Both have their interests and everyone needs to be educated and enter into agreements with their eyes open and their trusting hearts left at home.
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
I've never seen the attraction of new houses myself, this story just confirms that opinion. I can't tell if the remediation will be effective, but if the builders extend the warranty then it sounds like they are trying to solve the problem.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
I know from other threads that areas across the south, extending to California, use post-tensioned slabs about 10" or 12" thick. That can work if properly designed. Other solutions are stiffened rafts or deep foundations with cardboard "crush boxes" under the slab.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
It's interesting you mention the crush boxes, as that is exactly the retrofit which was proposed and rejected by the home owner. But it is unfortunate that it wasn't the original foundation design!
Has anyone looked at the other house at that link?
Cheers,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.
Too bad the home owner didn't let the contractor try, since they may have then failed. Given access and subsequent failure, she probably would have gotten her buy-back wish!
As I've stated several times, and has now been echoed at least twice by others, not permitting access and insisting upon buy-back, buy-back, buy-back, has significantly weakened her position. Only the courts of public opinion can save her now...
Too bad; I really hate seeing the little guy loose!
Cheers,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Homeowners (and engineers) beware! it could happen to you.