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Mediocre vs Top Notch university
8

Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Mediocre vs Top Notch university

(OP)
I am currently attending the University of Akron (Akron, OH) but although it's a stretch, I am considering trying to get in to Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland, OH).  

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

What's your opinion?  Do you agree/disagree with the quote?

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Hard to say.

I worked in Silicon Valley as a contract designer.  My contractor colleagues and I were Midwest imports, graduates of Big 10 universities.  Most of the engineers we worked with went to Stanford or MIT.  There wasn't a discernable IQ gap, but it was clear that the MIT and Stanford guys really did get a better education.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

(OP)
Currently I am taking one course a semester. At the mediocre university, my employer will pick up the tab for almost all of it ($5,250/year limit...anything above and the IRS taxes it). The top notch school would put me back around $25k. Is the difference in education worth the extra cash?

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

There are a couple of other threads regarding how closely someone will look at your GPA later in life; I can't remember if any of them factored in how "good" the school is.

If you're not concerned about differences in price, I personally believe there is a value in going to a "better" school.  I like it better when I am challenged not just by my professors but by those around me, and this is more likely at the "better" school (okay, I'm tired of typing scare quotes, so just assume them from here on out).

After some life detours, I ended up finishing my B.S. at a mediocre school, and though I have a nice 4.0 to show for it that I might not (but dammit I might) have gotten at a better school, I didn't like being top in the class; I felt like maybe I could be getting more somewhere else.  When I got to grad school (which was a top school), those of us from the lesser schools did indeed have more trouble than the people who had been in the top schools as undergrads.  I think the challenge level is very different.  Whether that matters to an employer is one question.  Whether it matters to you is another.

But that 4.0 comes back to the initial question about the relative value of different performances at different schools.  Once it looked like I *could* have a 4.0, it became very important to me to maintain it.  Someone could look at a 3.9 at my school and say, oh, that converts to a 3.2 (or whatever) at MIT.  But if I have a 4.0, max out the scale, they have no idea how well I could have done somewhere else.

Hg

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Is your major Engineering? As long as it's ABET accreditation, either school will be equal...IMO.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Equal for registering to take the PE exam?
Equal on a resume?
Equal for how much you will learn?

Three different considerations.

Two schools both meeting the same MINIMIUM set of standards for an accreditation does not mean the programs are identical.  That's all certification and accreditation mean, just meeting some minimum set of standards.  How far a program goes beyond the minimum requirements is up to them and won't be reflected in accreditation status.

Hg

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

After your first job - doesn't seem like anybody cares.

If you want a Masters or PHD - go to the best school you can find/afford.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

ABET accreditation is a good indicator that you will receive at least a solid education, however one thing to remember is that a bigger name school with bigger class sizes does not always mean you learn more.  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Quote:

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

Disagree.
The success of an Engineer is dependent on what passion you have within you for the profession, and how you interact with others, etc. Of course having been an Engineer for a number of years, I reflect back on the university I attended for BS and MS degrees, and I see no benefit to be gained by going to a top tier school for the sake of having graduated from that school especially with the cost of education. The foundation I received at the university was more than adequate to prepare me for the challenges of my various jobs. What you put into the school you will get out of it. There is nothing that beats OTJ expierence, if you are willing to learn.

After my first job, nobody cared about my GPA. All employers were interested in was past experience, expierence and expierence.

 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

2
At the core of the question is really, "nature vs. nurture?"  Does the school make the man?

Partly, yes, and partly no.  Some schools provide a better education and training, but, the old adage of, "lead a horse to water...," still applies.  And, there are plenty of examples of people who have succeeded despite enormous odds and disadvantages, so a large part of anyone's success is ultimately, their drive and their passion.

I think that if you are of high caliber, you can extract as much as you need or want from your current school.

As to some of the other issues raised, just bear in mind that the graduates of those "top-notch" schools needed to be "top-notch" applicants to have gotten accepted at those vaunted institutions.  Therefore, their performance, post-graduation, might have little to do with their actual education, and more to do with their actual abilities, again, nature vs. nurture.

TTFN

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I agree with metengr that your success will be dependent on what you put into it. As far as the top tier schools, I went to a top school in a large city in the south (check the screen name) for my BS and then a less prestigous school for my MS. As a TA for the second school, I could tell the quality of cirriculum was different, but there were still good engineers at both schools. I don't think you can discount someone because of the school they went to, but I think if you went to a top school there are certain things you will learn (beyond the book stuff) no matter what that you won't get at other schools (time management, etc.).

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

IRstuff pretty much summed it up in my opinion.  Star.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Here is the way I see it MUEagle:
The reasons to go to a top notch university:
1.  The quality of the instructors is more likely to be good.
2.  The class sizes are usually smaller, with more opportunities to learn beyond the curriculum.  
3.  The students you will be competing with will be among the best in the country.  You usually can't just show up and get a B.
4.  The students in your classes are more likely to be the future leaders and top notch engineers in their community.
5.  The quality of the connections you can make with Alumni and those affiliated with the college are a lot better.
6.  More likely the bosses and managers you will be interviewing in the future attended the top notch university you just graduated from.  
7.  How do you know how good you are until you test yourself.

Reasons to go to a mediocre college:
1.  Cheaper
2.  Can be closer to "home"
3.  Education & resources "could be" just as good as that of the top notch college.
4.  The course work is tougher and you might not achieve a passing rating at the top notch school.  Not as likely a "drop out".
5.  Did I say cheaper?

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I agree with Hg.  Always getting top marks through lack of competition does not stretch one.  Competition with ones peers is a good thing.  The sewer principle does apply (what you get out depends on what you put in), so the arguments about whether one school teaches better than another is a valid one.  But being surrounded by real competition is a good thing for students who want to succeed.

(My comments relate to my experiences of secondary rather than university education, but I think the same principles apply.)

- Steve

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

At the end of the day, it is only you and the textbook.  Better universities have smaller classes and more stimulating lectures but the material IS THE SAME.  Passing the PE exam shows that good students from all schools have the same passing rate and the poor students fail an equivalent number of times.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

you should probably try to go to the hardest school at which you can still finish in the top 15%.  Good luck finding it.
 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

dougantholz reasons #3 and #4 touch upon another good reason. Some of your fellow students are likely to be the future entrepreneurs and leaders. You may end up being a mediocre student at a top university, but the contacts you make may create opportunities you won't have elsewhere.

My son chose computer science at a top school, but made poor grades. However, a couple of his fellow students were selected for research positions, and when asked who they would pick as a third new-hire, they suggested him. He's now got the job situation I've always wished for.
 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Quote:

go to the hardest school at which you can still finish in the top 15%

oops, I graduated 50-percentile. cry   

TTFN

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

One thing I forgot to add to the list above.  3-5 for top notch schools is only really true if you go there full time.  Part time students don't tend to make the same connections.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

As a person who did their engineering undergrad at Akron and then did their graduate work at CWRU, I believe I am in a unique position to advise you.  If you can at all afford to attend Case, do it.  There is absolutely no comparison between the two schools.

It is difficult to explain the differences in the schools, but more the biggest difference comes down to one of attitude.  At Akron, I felt that there was a lot of political bs going on and that the objective wasn't to learn or to teach.  At case, I didn't get this impression.  At Akron you needed to go suck up to the teacher after hours to get taught the necessary material to do well on the tests.  At CWRU, the material was taught in class and if the class wasn't 'getting it' then the teacher stayed with the topic till they did.

There are also technical differences between the curriculum of the programs too, where at CWRU you will find that the work load, while more intense, is also a lot more up to date and applicable to the real world.  For example, in my digital logic class at Akron they skipped the tagged-tabulation method of minimizing logic circuits.  Of course this was a real eye opener when I got to Case.  Here is another example:  At Akron the undergrad microprocessor architecture class had us write some 8088 assembly to IO read a port of switches and write to a port of LEDs on a bread board.  At case, the undergrad microprocessor class (which I took as an added elective) had us analyzing the internal structure of the CPUs, computing resource utiliziation and instruction pipeline queueing.

Of course, getting into CWRU is a bit more challenging and they are a lot more restrictive of who they will let into the program.  If I last recall over 50% of the applicants are told thanks, but no thanks.  Like I said, if you can afford it and get accepted, go for it and don't look back.

As a final note.  When I got my second job out of school.  The VP of HR flat out told me that if I had only attended Akron and not CWRU that I would not have been hired because their experience with Akron graduates is that they aren't up to par.




 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"At Akron you needed to go suck up to the teacher after hours to get taught the necessary material to do well on the tests."

So, you sucked up to the teacher and they taught you outside of class?

Wow, in the UK we had to go to a really posh university to even see a 'teacher' outside of class.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

No actually, I wasn't one of the ones who did and as a result I got mediocre grades in those classes.  Fortunately in undergrad a 'C' is still passing. I generally tried to avoid those teachers as much as possible.  Overall, I did much better in graduate school.  I attribute that both to myself, but also to the difference in quality of the education of the different institutions.  I think the fact that a few months after I finally graduated from Akron that two of the 'worst' teachers finally got fired and another one wound up in prison for smearing blood on the walls in a girls dorm speaks volumes.

I still remember (13 years later) this scene from the control theory class at Akron: For the second 5 week period of the 15 week semester, you needed to know the trick of using a protractor (to get distance and angle) to aproximate a transfer function from a pole-zero plot in order to solve 4 out of the 5 test problems.  I clearly remember a student asking outright for a demonstation of how to do this (it wasn't in our text books) and the teacher drawing a diagram on the board in about 2 square inches while hiding it from view then grabbing the eraser, clearing it off the board, turning to the class with a big smile and saying, "isn't that easy?".  I don't know if the teacher is still there or not.

Now to be fair, there were some teachers at Akron that were quite good and really cared about whether or not the class came away with something of value.

In the end, though, if I had it to do over again I would choose to go to another school.  If I could have afforded CWRU at the outset, I would have as it rates as one of the better Engineering schools in the nation.  




 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Don't forget that 50% of the doctors finished in the lower half of their class.  But you will never see that on their diploma or resume..

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I've faced this question a lot during interviews and career nights.  The answer is always the same.

The fact you graduated is generally good enough, the actual school is less important.  Your completed degree, interview performance and personality will get you the job.  I assume any job a person gets based largely on the school they went to will probably end up being a lame job, exception for academic appointments.

But, over time, several caveats showed up, and Noway2's eloquent comments remind me.

Companies with strong HR departments enforced hiring policies often look very closely at school's and their various national rankings.  This HR process is brutal, spurious and unfair (lumping all people from a school together) and always disagreed with by the technical people (i.e. your prospective boss).

And, as Noway2 says, you learn some schools just don't measure up: I've seen repeated lame assignments, even the same assignment briefs, from certain schools over a 10 year period.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I did my undergrad at a top university.  I did my masters at a mediocre university (mostly because I was working and attending school part-time).  Unfortunately, from my experienced with the classes in the mediocre university, I'd have second thoughts hiring someone unless they really stood out.

It's a fact that you try harder when challenged more, and you get challenged more when surrounded by smarter people.  That's not to say that you don't get gems in other schools, but attending a school where you compete against the best forces you to go the extra mile.  That's a trait that stays with you throughout your career.

-
Syl.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I don't know, but I think in the percentage game.  There are the few who go to the top notch schools and then the rest of us go to other schools.  So the makeup of hiring mangers should be the same.  I would say that most of my engineering management came from decent colleges and some are from MIT or RPI.  I help out at new hire orientations and probably every 5th or 6th person I meet are from top notch schools.  I came from a middle ground college and here I am working along with MIT grads and in some cases I'm the Project Mechanical Engineer.  Not to knock the MITs of the world, I agree that they have some great classes, but once you get out into the real world, its your tenacity that matters.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

If you can only manage "mediocre" at a great university, you probably will not be admitted.  Very few of these students do mediocre and if they do they will be shown the door.  These universities do not tolerate slackers.  They have standards to maintain, and high gpa's for graduates is one of them.   

Is it worth it to spend $25k?  Maybe, maybe not - since you may also be required to go full time, you might have to quit your job or go part time.  That will set you back a whole lot more than $25k unless you can find free room and board.

Is it a good idea to stay at Akron?  Probably not based on the review by Noway2

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Mediocre is a relative term.  What does a "C" at MIT represent, since that's in the context of the top 1% of all high school graduates.

As for my school, we had a guy who was a senior my freshman year, and graduated the same year I did.  Supposedly, one class, "Introduction to Complex Variables," kept him from graduating.  I think that most highly ranked schools are not so draconian

TTFN

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I am thinking about this whole competition thing and I see it from a slightly different perspective.  Let me offer this opinion.  While stiff competition is always a good thing, I think it is more difficult to be a true standout (not just the best in the class, but a true standout - nearing 100's in all classes... especially difficult ones) with a lack of competition.  It's easy to be motivated with competition present, but those who can stay motivated without it have, IMO, greater control of themselves.  You won't always have that competition to drive you in the real world.  Playing pool is kind of my thing, so I like to analogize to it.  It's easy to play better against stiff competition, but the mark of a truly great player is to play great against even lame competition.
Additionally, being the class standout affords different opportunities.  I know when I was in undergrad, most people in my structural classes came to me with questions rather than the professors.  This provided two mechanisms by which to improve myself.  First, I realized that my classmates had rather high expectations of me (which I did not want to disappoint).  Second, I remember the saying that the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else.  It helps you think about things in a way that will enable you to answer questions (and think about what those questions might be), and truly make sense of something and truly understand it so that you don't spout your mouth off not knowing what you're talking about and look like a fool later.
Just my two cents.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Just for the record, I wasn't saying either is better than the other.......... just trying to shine a different light on it.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I had considered MIT until they sent an alumni to me to talk about the school.  He said that most of the undergraduate classes were taught by graduate assistants and that graduate students were the ones who actually spent any time with the professors.

So I went to the University of Oklahoma and got a great education instead.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

sideswiper,

sometimes grad students make good teachers.  i've had a couple of TA's that created a lot of "a-ha!! now i get it" moments for me...not just in EE either.

as far as i know, actually learning how to teach isn't a part of any PhD program.  i've known too many profs that couldn't survive without powerpoint (one of the reasons i hardly went to class).

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Funny I have one prof we wish would use powerpoint, that way when you leave befuddled you can at least review the material :)

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

calguy,

Sure, that's true.  But the only real difference between accredited schools is the professors and the amount of research they do.  Schools aren't judged by their prowess at educating young minds, they are judged on their professor's research output.

So a highly ranked school is ranked highly because of the professors, but the professors don't make much of an impact on undergraduate education.  So how highly a school is ranked is a poor indicator of the quality of undergraduate education available at the school.

I say that all accredited engineering schools offer about the same material, and that the student's attitude is much more important than what school they attend.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

sideswiper,

unfortunately that's true; they all do care more about research than teaching.  i went to a sub-par college (in my opinion) and had to make the best of it.  i think i did, given all the work i put in, but i don't think i know nearly as much as i should given my effort.

carnage1,

that's one benefit of powerpoint but in my experience in lectures where powerpoint is used, "teaching" usually is reduced to a prof simply reading off the slides.  reading and teaching are completely different things.  in lectures, there's not enough "explaining" of what is really happening.  i learned more in classes where profs went to the blackboards/whiteboards and actually drew circuits out and solved problems in a step by step manner instead of pre-made slides.  this way you understand the process.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Many "top ranked"  or well-known schools are not a good place to get an undergraduate degree.

Many of the schools that show high in the ratings are schools that are devoted to research. As a result, these schools may be exceptional for someone going to graduate school, but can be a living-hell for an undergraduate degree.

Research professors who are forced to teach many times just have a foreign grad student do the class, or worse, do it themselves. If the emphasis at the institution is research and publishing, the professor will do what he can to get out of teaching undergraduates - even if it means flunking the entire class.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

If they are hungry,  it doesn't matter where they went. School is 4 or 5 years and is like a sprint.  Your career is 30+ years long and more like marathon.   

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Mine was a research school, but all the professors taught their classes, live, and in person.  The TAs were only tasked to handle the homework and tests.  In some classes, they were responsible for secondary class sessions, but the main lecture was always by the professor.

TTFN

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Maybe there should be a distinction between state schools and private schools.  My good (top 20 overall, top 50 engineering) school had really good profs who taught their own classes.  We only had TA's for teaching homework work-outs for lower level coursework.  I can't imagine a top university where the professors don't teach, but hey that wasn't my experience.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

We no longer hire structural engineering graduates from the nearby "mediocre school".  Even the best student from that school doesn't match a mediocre student from the better schools we pull from.  

I guess take it for what it's worth, but we've been burned too many times from kids being passed through the mediocre schools.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"It's better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

I agree with this, but not for the reasons you might assume. The purpose of an engineering degree is not to train you to work as an engineer. How many of us perform hand calculations of highly idealized and largely impracticle problems for our jobs?

The real purpose of an engineering degree is to weed out people who are lazy and/or not particularly intelligent. In the US it is illegal for businesses to give job candidates IQ tests, but accepting only people from prestigious universities that require sky-high SAT scores (which are strongly correlated with IQ) is allowed. The better the university's reputation, the more sub-par candidates that get weeded out.

-Christine

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Well, if you limit yourself to only candidates from top tier schools such as MIT, you will end up missing out on some pretty good engineers.  I'm sure plenty of people overlooked me based on where I went to school and the fact that my degree is an ET degree and not an "engineering" degree.  I'm not saying that I'm a top notch engineer, but I'm certainly capable and willing and eager to learn. I also know that I'm a lot more technically competent than some of my colleagues who went to Virginia Tech or Cornell for grad school. You are going to seriously limit the talent pool from which you can draw.  I'm not advocating hiring someone who is not up to the job, but you WILL find people who ARE up to the job who do NOT come from top tier schools.  There are many people who don't go to college right after high school because of life circumstances or possibly didn't have the money to attend private colleges, but that doesn't mean they are less intelligent or less capable of learning.  While I will agree that on average, top tier school students may be smarter, that is just a general rule of thumb and every person should be evaluated based on their own merits.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"Illegal for businesses to give job candidates IQ tests"  

Really?  What's the rationale behind that?
 

- Steve

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

StructuralEIT: I agree with you whole-heartedly in that every person should be evaluated on their own merits.  Unfortunately, it's the evaluation period that can cost a company dearly if said individual does not meet expectations.  Not only have they lost resources in training that individual (and possibly correcting their mistakes), but they probably lost the opportunity to hire one of those prime candidates from a top notch school.

Do I agree with this method of thinking, no.  If I did, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now, as my school would hardly be considered top notch by any means.  But it doesn't take much to understand where these companies are coming from.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

SomptingGuy, in 1971 the US Supreme Court ruled that employer's use of cognitive tests was discriminatory against minorities:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=401&;invol=424

As I understand the ruling, you are permitted to quiz job candidates, but only if you can demonstrate that the questions asked are pertinant to the specific job requirements.

-Christine

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Well, I read a big chunk of that and all I can say is that the history of the USA is scarily scarily recent.

- Steve

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Good thing the number of graduates from top tier schools is finite :)
As for the testing, anything that cannot be proven to be a direct job requirement will get you in trouble.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"I agree with this, but not for the reasons you might assume. The purpose of an engineering degree is not to train you to work as an engineer. How many of us perform hand calculations of highly idealized and largely impracticle problems for our jobs?

I still do high level hand calcs.  How else would you know what is going on with your design?
 

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Mediocre unis rule!

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

StructuralEIT,  Sure there's always going to be individuals who are self motivated, but how's an employer to differentiate between students who apply themselves and professors who give out easy A's??  After a decade of sampling graduates, my company will not waste any more time and money trying to "give everyone a chance".  If that were the case then everyone should just go to community college.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I don't think community college offer ABET accredited programs.  As for the gen ed courses, I see nothing wrong with a community college.
I get your overall point, you're just REALLY limiting your talent pool.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Additionally, 10 years after graduation when the guy has a PE, do you really care where he went to school?  I can see your point more for a fresh grad, but I disagree almost 100% for someone with experience.  Especially because you can tell if someone knows what they're talking about during an interview.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

In another thread they/we are discussing why standards have fallen. If they have, and courses have got easier and more expensive, I suggested that it is us, the interviewers, who have cused that, by not rewarding those candidates who have completed harder courses with more/better job offers. If industry wants bums on seats then that's what the unis will provide. If industry wants better than that then it has to give a price signal to the market.



 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I don't mind limiting the talent pool when it eliminates a majority of people who can only doggy paddle.

A 10 yr engineer isn't really any different.  You just have to  factor in their work experience in addition to where they graduated.  A great mentor COULD erase some of the damage done by a mediocre program, but it's case by case and the employer is really taking a chance.  PE means nothing.  If you're in this profession, you should have your SE2 by year 7...maybe 8.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Its sorta like looking at an engineer with 5 years of experience.  If they worked at a place that has a reputation for less than state of the art work we see them differently then someone who may have worked at a more prestigious firm that pushes designs and isn't afraid to look deep into the fundamentals of engineering to do a good design.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I agree with GregLocock's last statement.

It is kinda industries fault, although not all jobs require the best engineers.  Where I work now, one of the other engineers was amazed that I could do beam calcs by hand...  partly because he had never been asked to do any calcs out of school. Many Companies either are to busy to "use" their engineers, or just use them for drafting or pointless work. Which results in schools saying "90% of or Grades are Engineers." Which continues them doing the same old...

MuEagle05

I have complained about something related to this...
 thread731-217096: GPA Vs. Experiance

I have found out that most Engineers at my job are from higher end Uni's, and I assume, with Higher GPA's.  And only one of them does anything that I could consider "challenging" engineering work. He and I have been used for all the more complex calculations... the other 4 only do drafting work.

Relating this back to the discussion.
They did get their jobs because they are from higher end Uni's, all are also really good guys.  However I made it in, going to a state school, and less than impressive grades, even before I knew I passed the FE.  

My best advice is that if your getting A-B's at your current school, start doing "Engineering" related activities, take more challenging classes, spend as much time as possible in the machine shop or a Lab, make Connections with as many engineering friends as possible. Also, unless you get scholarships, coming out of a state school with less debit will be nice.  

One of my best mentor always said "the cream rises to the top".  

PS I Highly recommend study abroad!

Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

B16a-

Do you work for Walter P. Moore or something?  I work for a pretty prestigious firm in our area.  We work with very prestigious architects on a lot projects that end up in magazines and newspapers.  I think I only ended up here because some people fro higher profile schools went somewhere for more money, but I have proven myself at least as valuable as my colleagues with graduate degrees from schools like VT, Cornell, and Berkeley.
They actually hired someone else from my program just because of my performance.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

2
StructuralEIT,

We have been talking about Top Notch vs Mediocre schools as if there was a list someone that divided them all up.  The truth is someone's opinion of a school is dependent on their own history and experiences.  And plenty of "Top schools" have bad programs and there are schools, unknown otherwise, with excellent programs in particular fields.  

To take StructuralEIT's last post as an example, it sounds like his employers orginally were hiring from only top schools.  They then hired StructuralEIT who (I'm guessing from his post) didn't go to a "top" school.  He did well, and they hired another graduate from the same school.  So whatever school he went to has gone up in their opinion.  It's not that they now think better of all schools because of StructuralEIT, but they now have experience that you can hire good employees from that school.

I'm also sure there are people out there that got burned by bad hires from MIT or someplace and have sworn off hiring from "those" schools.   

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Bruno, Well Put!

Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I really like this thread.  Being an entering grad student I was faced with this decision.  Ultimately I decided to go with a mediocre school because it was the only one that could offer me support.  It is also surrounded by top-notch industry which leads to a lot OTJ experience and knowledge.  I've often thought that it was better to go to top-notch school until I met some fellows co-workers/students from them.  Some were A-students that knew nothing about engineering, just whats in a text book.  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

There are people like that from crappy schools, too.

One of the best results from my having gone to a top grad program is that I still have easy access to the faculty.  It may not work this way for undergrad programs; probably depends on the size of the program.  In my case, though, my advisor is one of the top technical experts in a lot of matters that I deal with on a regular basis, and being able to just dash off a quick question to him is priceless.  I'm not saying that he *wouldn't* answer questions from outsiders, but I generally don't feel comfortable asking questions like that of faculty members at other insitutions where I don't have a personal connection.

Regarding the worth of the students themselves, though, I agree with some others that after a certain number of years of experience, it ought not to matter.  People who could have made it at the top programs but chose not to attend ought to be able to shine at work, and people who got through a top program by rote will be unremarkable at work.  On the other hand, it's hard to find out whether someone did poorly at their last job.

Hg

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

(OP)
Meh, those are overall rankings. US News & World Report ranks by discipline.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

The Forbes rankings are a joke.  Their criteria has nothing to do with a technical merit, and is based heavily on appearances in "Who's Who", debt after graduation, teachers as rated by students from a popular website, and awards.  They even noted that some schools were added to the list because of their "fine reputation", not based on statistical merit.  Yes, the numbers are adjusted based on enrollment, but it doesn't take a statistician to determine just how quickly those numbers become skewed.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

(OP)
Webometrics...

Bogus.

I am hoping this site is a joke. The rankings are based on:

1) who has the most hits in search engines (Google, Yahoo, etc.)

2)the number and  type and size of files you can find on their websites

3) the number of references in papers and publications in Google Scholar

4)The number of unique external links

I needed a good laugh, thanks.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I like Mr168's rankings because my school comes in 4th!

Actually, all joking aside, that list illustrates my point.

In my biased mind, Case Western Reserve is a better school than U of Cali San Diego.  Why is that?  If've never been to either.  (Please, no one take offence, I'm just trying to illustrate a point) But because I've lived much closer to CWRU, and knwon a few people that went there, I am much more aware of the school.  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

my school ranks 60th in the nation, or 100th in the world or 300th in the nation or 300th in the world or 80th in the nation... depending on which list you look at.  However, in water resource engineering / research it ranks in the top 10 in the world according to unnamed sources ...  which is correct?  for what it's worth, here's another site:

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

MuEagle -

I didn't notice your discipline was bio-engineering.  In that case I would definitely try to go to CWRU.  They have a very good program for bio-med (4th according to the US News rankings) and they have all the industry right in Cleveland.  I got my BS in aero-eng from CWRU in '05 and I liked the school and program.  I learned quite a bit and was challenged every step of the way.

--Jay  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

All of this proves what?

Its all relative unless you go to Harvard, Standford, MIT, Oxford, or Yale.

For example one listed the U of Washington at 300th and the other listed it at 93rd in the world?..... I just love statistics!

Hell according to one of those I went to the 68th highest ranked school in the world and got a 2.99 GPA!... hahaha find that hard to believe... I must to a genius?

Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

It proves nothing...just like surveys, polls, votes and lists. It's all how you perceive them.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

The Times list is almost correct, they just forgot a +25 bonus for punts.
 

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

(OP)
I just registered for a course through USC Viterbi via their distance learning program. $5600/4-credit course. My employee only pays $5,250 a year. The whole degree will set me back $25k.

That is hard to stomach.

The mediocre school (U. of Akron) would cost me almost nothing. It's only $1600/4-credit course

I already have $25k in undergrad loans. I get the jist of what people are saying, the top notch schools are better, but wow, there is a large price gap.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I think there is considerable debate about whether some of the top notch schools are better than middle of the road schools.  But regardless of opinions, you need to evaluate schools for your major and focus, your preferred method of teaching and learning, evaluate the professors if you can, evaluate the actual classes you would be required to take, factor in where you live, where you hope to be employed / potential employers and also consider the financial benefits / liabilities. this is your research project before you apply to another school.  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

MuEagle05,

You quoted: "Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

Curious who's quote is this? Citation?

Thanks.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

(OP)
Apologies,

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university." -dougantholz  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I think that your school is vastly important, just as your upbringing is vastly important in predicting your ability to produce (in addition to natural ability).  Look at the best schools, and that's why the blue chips and top organizations around recruit there - There success is a product of the people they bring on board.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Note  that this post has ben beaten to, death< I thought I would throw in my 2 cents.
1) As far as undergraduate engineering, goes what you achieve is probably more dependent on how motivated you are. You can get a good grounding in fundementals at a mediocre school and have known many good engineers who came 2nd tier ( sounds nicer than mediocre) schools. Also new some engineers from 1st tier who did not know much at all. However, you will probably be pushed harder, and have the oppertunity to see more in terms on research at a first tier school. You should look at work load if you are thinking about CWRU and working.
All things being equal, I would encourage you to go to the best school you can afford. Although your GPA is not issue after your first job, Your school is. People need standards to make complicated judgements, and for your abilities as an engineer, your school will be (for right or wrong) the standard by which you are evaluated not only for hiring but as to the quality of your opinion, or the competency of your presentation to clients. People will decide your engineering ability based on level of education and quality of institution. This will be especially true of people you interact with who are not engineers.
I am sure many of you will comment that this is not fair. I am not saying it is. I am just saying that has been my experience in the world.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I think that while most of your reputation will be based on your body of work, certain schools will still carry certain connotations well into the tail end of your career.  

Specifically, graduates of Caltech or MIT, because they were, and are, extremely selective, even 30 yrs after graduation, there's still an expectation of higher performance from you.  The plus side is that you get some level of authority not accorded to graduates of other schools.

TTFN

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I don't think the added expense of Case Western is worth the huge price difference.  Maybe if it was MIT.... maybe.  I lived in Cleveland and worked out of Akron for 3 years.  I worked with students from Case, OSA, University of Akron, and UCLA (UCLA - University on the Corner of Lincoln Ave. - aka. Youngstown :) ).  Their educations were very similar and the company we worked for didn't seem to make any distinction between them.  Now if it were MIT, Harvard, or some very top teir school, maybe it would be worth the price.

What school you went isn't as hard of a hurdle to jump as what GPA you earned.  I'd rather get a 3.1 GPA at Akron, than a 2.9 at MIT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is broken, fix it.  If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Okay, in my opinion, the problem statement lacks sufficient data.  While everyone has done a marvelous job of interpreting the question and proffering valid advice from that viewpoint, I would like further clarification.  Are you asking which rout is better for landing a good job, or for actually becoming a good engineer?  These are vastly different propositions.  
I can see both sides of the good job issue.  Everyone here has thoughtfully laid out their opinions both philosophically and empirically.  Some have approached the second question in evaluating the success of the student academically based on the level of competition and the quality of the curriculum.  However IMO, these considerations are most relevant to your career as a scholar and only obliquely related to actual excellence in the profession (assuming you succeed in either setting).  Granted, how fast you hit the ground running is of great importance to many of our fellow members who have climbed the heights and now sit in positions of responsibility for these types of concerns.  Therefore, their appreciation of your school's status will directly affect your initial acceptance into the field.  In the long run though, your professional excellence will be a direct function of your drive and ability.  When you, through your hard work, professional ethics, continual learning and good attitude, become a subject matter expert; you will be in high demand regardless of your beginnings. I promise that the real learning starts after you graduate and start facing real-world problems.  When you get there, listen to the old guys and learn what they can teach you.  Take lots of notes.  Learn the codes and company mechanisms.  And never be afraid to try innovative approaches to problems.  Whichever path you follow, apply yourself to the max.  Don't be satisfied with anything but excellence.  Never be too small to offer an opinion or too big to ask for help.  Learn from others, both from their successes and from their failures.  If you want to become a good engineer, don't get stymied by problems like this.  Choose a solution that solves the problem and apply it.  And remember, often times the best solution to a problem is the simplest one.

Go do it!

Tom     
 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Came to the US in 1983, when I sent my resume out, people could not even put the country I came from on the map, can you imagine what they thought of my degree or my school?
It was as tough as could be to land a job even though I had high grades, experience and all.

Once I landed the first job, no one ever cared of my schooling, employers cared about the projects I did, how well I did them, how fast I did them, how much unpaid overtime I was willing to put in, and how little I asked.
It was simply supply and demand.

Can you all name one Indian university or one Philipino University? No. Yet, we import a whole bunch of them every year.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

I was accepted to CalTech (with partial scholarship), MIT, U of Chicago, and really wanted to go to RPI for their RAMP program, but couldn't afford it and no co-signer (no loan officer in the trailer park). I ended up going to a prestigious school on scholarship/stipend for a dual philosophy/mathematics degee. The "prestige" was lost on me, being a gin-soaked boy with carnival desires and goat-like tendencies, and ended up transferring to a State school for engineering. Being charitable, it was a "third tier" school. The cream rises to the top, but so do floaters, and only one of the species gets flushed. Absolutely no regrets, especially for the goat-like tendencies. Could not perceive the difference in  quality of students and professors then, and 25 years later, the "prestige" means less than zero. If you cannot produce, or cannot be taught to produce quickly, no use. If you are looking for "prestige" to provide privileges, then I hope you have a relative's firm to work for, as it means nothing compared to a personal track record of success or admirable failures.
Odds are good that over a career what you end up doing has nothing to do with theory and lab from college, at least unitl you get to a comfortable position. For the short term, "sucking up" may be of benefit-the Neil & Bob School of Management would be recommended over Wharton, if you have a taste for that.
 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"carnival desires" ???  You wanted to be in the circus?  

No matter.  Knew someone who went to Caltech to major in physics.  After 2 quarters, he declared EngLit, and went into the Peace Corps after graduation.

TTFN

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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Pick the school that offers the best value for an education.  ABET accreditation with low in state tuition was enough for me.  I just wanted to learn.  I doubt that my school even made the top 100 engineering schools in the USA.  It didn't matter; I was offered a job by a Fortune Global 500 company while I was in my senior year.  The job started four weeks after graduation.  I was working with a wide range of starting engineers, three of them from the top 5 engineering universities in the USA.  The pay was substantially above the national average for starting engineers.  When you factor the cost of the educations, I was earning more than those guys from the top 5 engineering schools with the same salary.

I have moved on from that first job and I am confident that my income is greater than the most MIT guys; however the money is not the important thing.  The important thing is that I am having a lot more fun than most folks.  So this begs the question, does going to one of the 5 top USA engineering universities/colleges give you a better chance at being happy?
 

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

This is a very interesting thread, and I thought I'd throw in two thoughts:

1.  I went to Carleton University. It had long had a reputation as "last chance U" as it operated on an interesting principle that "Every student has the right to fail".  In the last couple of decades, however, we've become the top jounalism school, top architecture school, and (stream dependant) the top or near top engineering school.  We also have highly respected International Policy and Public Affairs, as well as Political Science departments.  BUT still the reputation can dog the graduates...

When I got my first job, at one of the longest established and best respected Structural firms in Canada, I was told flat out that they would never had hired a Carleton B.Eng. grad had I not come with personal recomendations from the President of Professional Engineers Ontario and carrying several Engineering competition wins under my arm.

After having worked at the job for six months I was personally thanked by the President for my work, and he (a graduate from a much more prestigious school, admitted that I was a better prepared and more practical graduate than any of the current graduates from his Alma Mater.

2.  I moved to a foreign country after two years of Professional Practice in Canada;  Just long enough to claim minimum two years Canadian experience appropriate for licensing.  My degree, and any degree for that matter, has only one bias towards it: "Canadian".  If you're willing and able to get overseas, your degree does not mean anything, only your abilities and the much mentioned experience, experience, experience, counts.  Leaving your own country is the Ultimate academic background equaliser.


All of that aside, I do wonder where all of the "connections" of a more well known University may have taken me.  I'll just have to be satisfied with knowing that I've received a top-notch education, and can certainly prove myself through my abilities and experiences.

Cheers,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

youngstructural,

You won a couple of engineering competitions, which ones? I've never personally been to CEC, but I ran part of WEC (the Western Canada regional).

I've never heard or gotten the impression that any engineering schools in Canada are particularly better or worse than others. Some have really strange systems and maybe lacking in the newest lab equipment, but overall in my regional and national experience... we all do nearly the same courses. Some schools however, like Waterloo, have a good reputation. I'm not sure why, but all I can figure out is that they just have a giant engineering program with a good selection of disciplines. However, they do have a mandatory co-op program  which creates a massive advantage post graduation, in my opinion (my school, UVic, is modeled on theirs and almost identical).

I'm not sure whether you are saying it is a negative or positive bias that you have a Canadian engineering degree. My experiences have told me that our engineering accreditation system (with all of its Canadian-known faults) is very highly respected world wide. I'm curious whether your personal experience says otherwise.  

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

go "mediocre" to "top notch."

generally speaking.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Truemenator:

First off, I won two different competitions, one locally with PEO (Professional Engineers Ontario), another within an inter-University competition between Ottawa U, Carleton, Queens and U of T.  To get to both competitions I had to compete at Carleton itself, placing first in the pre-PEO speaking competition and second in the inter-U primary.

I've also been a member of several teams that placed well (Great Norther Concrete Toboggan and Timber Bridge).

As for the bias towards Canadian Engineering Degrees, it is completely positive, when it exists.  Most of the time people don't know anything about it, but trust you automatically because you're Canadian.  The image we have, for the most part, is of clean-living, polite, nice people.  I've always thought that was a bit of a joke, but on average, from what I have experienced overseas, I have come to see that we actually deserve said reputation.

As for Universities in Canada, you're right about the consistency.  If a University doesn't toe the line, CEAB comes down on them like a ton of bricks.  I've heard of multiple loss of accreditations, and severe warnings, even from "reputed" universities.

Waterloo made their name by, as far as I have been told, INVENTING the Engineering Co-Op program in the early 1960s.

Other than all of that, I believe very strongly that it is the quality and motivation of person that makes the engineer, along with a good dose of oppotunity and POST graduation mentoring.  If you went to a Canadian school, you have the foundation needed to build a career.  I cannot comment on other countries except New Zealand, where I now assist with the teaching of 2nd year Structural Design as an Industry Mentor.  I believe Canterbury produces very high quality engineers, much more versed in Seismic design than any Canadian graduate, slightly less in depth on the regular stuff and some theory (read: fine details of theory and good detailing practice) than a Canadian graduate.  This is understandable as they concentrate so heavily on EQ.  It does annoy me though when I talk about welding details and get blank stairs.  They just don't learn much about it.

Sorry for yet another long post!

*smiles*

Regards,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

(OP)
I have to burst your Waterloo co-op bubble. Waterloo did not invent the engineering co-op.

The University of Cincinnati in Ohio did in 1906.

http://www.eng.uc.edu/prospectivestudents/coop/

Maybe they were the first to bring it to Canada?

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

there are "dumb" engineers at "great" universities and "great" engineers at "dumb" universities.

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Ah ha, well, I stand corrected.  Always happy to learn something new...  

Great to see good things coming out of the states (ie: co-op).  Being Canadian I'm supposed to have a "certain bias", but I really like the US engineering style; Lots of manuals, examples, explanations and procedures.  Makes the continual learning needed in our Profession that much easier.  I'm thoroughly convinced that if the US had actually gone metric codes like ACI 318 and AISC Steel Design would have been adopted by other countries outright.  And yes, I am aware the there are Metric editions, however nearly all the rest of the supporting material is imperial only.

Good codes, crappy units.

On the matter of quality of University, I think I'm done.  I'll probably keep reading, but suspect this thread has now truly been completely reviewed.

Cheers,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"when I talk about welding details and get blank stairs."

Presumably the stairs are blank because they're made of wood and don't take kindly oxy-acetylene torches?

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"As to some of the other issues raised, just bear in mind that the graduates of those "top-notch" schools needed to be "top-notch" applicants to have gotten accepted at those vaunted institutions.  Therefore, their performance, post-graduation, might have little to do with their actual education, and more to do with their actual abilities, again, nature vs. nurture."

Can't speak for the Colonies, but in the UK, the 'top' universities do tend to have teaching in line with the quality of the candidates that they get.

A few points to bear in mind (some re-iterating what's been said earlier):  

- Whilst any given individual *may* do very well and learn significant amounts at a Steerage rather than a 1st Class Stateroom institution, the chances are that they won't.

- The quality of the individuals you will interact with on the course is likely to be lower at No Hope U rather than Big Brains U.  As my wife has opined, a good horn player will get dragged down into the mud in a 4th section Brass Band, but will get pulled up in a Championship Band (or get sacked!).  The kind of people who make the better universities are more likely to be 'professional' in their attitudes, more interested in their subject and more demanding of the staff.

- The confidence of the individuals I've worked with from Oxbridge or Imperial (at least in Engineering) is usually higher and they have greater presence and impact - it rarely a surprise to me to find out that a good individual has gone to a good establishment.

- Never mind about your (potential) employers, how would *you* feel about it and how you think others would think about you?  Ask yourself the "I wish I'd ..." before you get near some important life milestone.  (exemplum: I'm glad I learned to fly when I did, late though it was, because I developed a medical problem a couple of years later that grounded me, but at least I'd done some flying and the number of people I meet who've always wanted to fly but not got round to it is saddening. OTOH, whilst I'm not unhappy with my education, good U with a quite specific course, I wish, in retrospect, that I'd taken a more general course at Oxbridge, both to get an improved education and to gain the general 'edge' that many of my Oxbridge (actually, mainly Cambridge) colleagues have compared to *most* individuals who seem equally intelligent and motivated but went elsewhere)

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

I would agree with the above quote.  A middle of the pack student from a tough curriculum is usually better than the upper tiers of a soft one.  Of course I always evaluate candidates as individuals, not as members of any "group".

I have a policy of quizzing applicants.  I've done this for decades with no trouble at all.  The questions consist of problems directly relevant to the job scope.  Also, they are *already solved* problems.  I never seek free advice through a quiz.  It works very well.  Students who bomb the quiz generally have little to show regarding academics, experience, oral interview skills, etc.  Those who ace it were candidates who already looked very promising.

You would be amazed at some of the basic questions a lot of applicants miss.  Not even in the ball park.

In summary, a tough curriculum, and being surrounded by the best of the best students forces a person to develop their full potential.  There may be some individuals who are self starters and could work hard without tough competition.  But, a class full of bright students provides diverse input.  The papers, presentations, lab work, and answers in class are better with a bright class.  Any individual is going to extract more in such a class.

To me, it isn't how big or expensive the university is, but rather, how tough.  It just happens that MIT, Caltech, Stanford, Case, etc. are both prestigious and tough.

For the record, I went to Youngstown State for BEEE/MSEE (aka UCLA) back in the '70's.  From 87-90 I taught at Univ of Akron.  In 07 I returned to grad school at Case to pursue the doctorate.  Case is very tough.  But the Ph.D. is always tougher than BS or MS.  YSU is tough as well.  U of A is one I never studied at, only taught there.  I was not tough, not easy.  Some of my former students love me, others hate me, and some are ambivalent.

A highly motivated individual will find a way to succeed.  A prestigious school gives a good head start, but after 5 to 10 yrs. in the field, the best individuals rise in spite of prior circumstances.  Does this help?

Claude

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

Lol... A star for you excognito;  A star for you!

I definately was not discussing foot-fall lifting runs...

;0)

Cheers,

YS

B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

How does one define a "top notch" university?  What most people go on are the surveys in magazines such as USN&WR.  Those surveys are taken from among academic peers who care (invariably) more about the faculty talent pool and the quantity and quality of research going on there.  Note that this has NOTHING to do with education the students get.

I went to a so-called "stellar" university back in the 80's where is appeared that the profs viewed teaching as more of a burden than a privilege.  For example, there were 50 or more guys in a senior level machine design course and the course was taught by a graduate student who know a lot about stress analysis but not so much practice and wisdom on the subject.  As another example, there were no teacher evaluations to fill out at the end of the courses.  It was obvious the faculty tried to weasel out of the teaching part of the job whenever possible by offloading the work to graduate students or junior faculty.  Things have maybe changed by now but I can only report on my own experiences and impressions.

 

Tunalover

RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university

"A highly motivated individual will find a way to succeed. A prestigious school gives a good start, but after 5 to 10 years in the field, the best individuals rise in spite of prior circumstances"... very well said CABRAHAM.

I am an Industrial Engineer here in the United States for almost 10 years  now but I didn't come from any of the  prestigious university in this country.  I got my education from my home country which is the Philippines. While I understand where the Companies are coming from, and why they wanna hire somebody from a prestigious university, I also agree with what StructuralEIT has stated "while I agree that on average, top tier school students may be smarter,that is just a general rule of thumb and every person should be evaluated based on their own merits."

Success cannot be determined by what school you have graduated from ,rather by how prepared you are when great opportunity comes your way.In my case, a great opportunity came and I was well prepared even though that preparation didn't come from one of the prestigious university here in the United States.

Kristine
Aquinas University Of Legazpi
Legazpi City,Philippines

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