Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Mediocre vs Top Notch university
(OP)
I am currently attending the University of Akron (Akron, OH) but although it's a stretch, I am considering trying to get in to Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland, OH).
"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."
What's your opinion? Do you agree/disagree with the quote?
"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."
What's your opinion? Do you agree/disagree with the quote?





RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I worked in Silicon Valley as a contract designer. My contractor colleagues and I were Midwest imports, graduates of Big 10 universities. Most of the engineers we worked with went to Stanford or MIT. There wasn't a discernable IQ gap, but it was clear that the MIT and Stanford guys really did get a better education.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
If you're not concerned about differences in price, I personally believe there is a value in going to a "better" school. I like it better when I am challenged not just by my professors but by those around me, and this is more likely at the "better" school (okay, I'm tired of typing scare quotes, so just assume them from here on out).
After some life detours, I ended up finishing my B.S. at a mediocre school, and though I have a nice 4.0 to show for it that I might not (but dammit I might) have gotten at a better school, I didn't like being top in the class; I felt like maybe I could be getting more somewhere else. When I got to grad school (which was a top school), those of us from the lesser schools did indeed have more trouble than the people who had been in the top schools as undergrads. I think the challenge level is very different. Whether that matters to an employer is one question. Whether it matters to you is another.
But that 4.0 comes back to the initial question about the relative value of different performances at different schools. Once it looked like I *could* have a 4.0, it became very important to me to maintain it. Someone could look at a 3.9 at my school and say, oh, that converts to a 3.2 (or whatever) at MIT. But if I have a 4.0, max out the scale, they have no idea how well I could have done somewhere else.
Hg
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Equal on a resume?
Equal for how much you will learn?
Three different considerations.
Two schools both meeting the same MINIMIUM set of standards for an accreditation does not mean the programs are identical. That's all certification and accreditation mean, just meeting some minimum set of standards. How far a program goes beyond the minimum requirements is up to them and won't be reflected in accreditation status.
Hg
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
If you want a Masters or PHD - go to the best school you can find/afford.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Disagree.
The success of an Engineer is dependent on what passion you have within you for the profession, and how you interact with others, etc. Of course having been an Engineer for a number of years, I reflect back on the university I attended for BS and MS degrees, and I see no benefit to be gained by going to a top tier school for the sake of having graduated from that school especially with the cost of education. The foundation I received at the university was more than adequate to prepare me for the challenges of my various jobs. What you put into the school you will get out of it. There is nothing that beats OTJ expierence, if you are willing to learn.
After my first job, nobody cared about my GPA. All employers were interested in was past experience, expierence and expierence.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Partly, yes, and partly no. Some schools provide a better education and training, but, the old adage of, "lead a horse to water...," still applies. And, there are plenty of examples of people who have succeeded despite enormous odds and disadvantages, so a large part of anyone's success is ultimately, their drive and their passion.
I think that if you are of high caliber, you can extract as much as you need or want from your current school.
As to some of the other issues raised, just bear in mind that the graduates of those "top-notch" schools needed to be "top-notch" applicants to have gotten accepted at those vaunted institutions. Therefore, their performance, post-graduation, might have little to do with their actual education, and more to do with their actual abilities, again, nature vs. nurture.
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
The reasons to go to a top notch university:
1. The quality of the instructors is more likely to be good.
2. The class sizes are usually smaller, with more opportunities to learn beyond the curriculum.
3. The students you will be competing with will be among the best in the country. You usually can't just show up and get a B.
4. The students in your classes are more likely to be the future leaders and top notch engineers in their community.
5. The quality of the connections you can make with Alumni and those affiliated with the college are a lot better.
6. More likely the bosses and managers you will be interviewing in the future attended the top notch university you just graduated from.
7. How do you know how good you are until you test yourself.
Reasons to go to a mediocre college:
1. Cheaper
2. Can be closer to "home"
3. Education & resources "could be" just as good as that of the top notch college.
4. The course work is tougher and you might not achieve a passing rating at the top notch school. Not as likely a "drop out".
5. Did I say cheaper?
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
(My comments relate to my experiences of secondary rather than university education, but I think the same principles apply.)
- Steve
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
My son chose computer science at a top school, but made poor grades. However, a couple of his fellow students were selected for research positions, and when asked who they would pick as a third new-hire, they suggested him. He's now got the job situation I've always wished for.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
oops, I graduated 50-percentile.
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
It is difficult to explain the differences in the schools, but more the biggest difference comes down to one of attitude. At Akron, I felt that there was a lot of political bs going on and that the objective wasn't to learn or to teach. At case, I didn't get this impression. At Akron you needed to go suck up to the teacher after hours to get taught the necessary material to do well on the tests. At CWRU, the material was taught in class and if the class wasn't 'getting it' then the teacher stayed with the topic till they did.
There are also technical differences between the curriculum of the programs too, where at CWRU you will find that the work load, while more intense, is also a lot more up to date and applicable to the real world. For example, in my digital logic class at Akron they skipped the tagged-tabulation method of minimizing logic circuits. Of course this was a real eye opener when I got to Case. Here is another example: At Akron the undergrad microprocessor architecture class had us write some 8088 assembly to IO read a port of switches and write to a port of LEDs on a bread board. At case, the undergrad microprocessor class (which I took as an added elective) had us analyzing the internal structure of the CPUs, computing resource utiliziation and instruction pipeline queueing.
Of course, getting into CWRU is a bit more challenging and they are a lot more restrictive of who they will let into the program. If I last recall over 50% of the applicants are told thanks, but no thanks. Like I said, if you can afford it and get accepted, go for it and don't look back.
As a final note. When I got my second job out of school. The VP of HR flat out told me that if I had only attended Akron and not CWRU that I would not have been hired because their experience with Akron graduates is that they aren't up to par.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
So, you sucked up to the teacher and they taught you outside of class?
Wow, in the UK we had to go to a really posh university to even see a 'teacher' outside of class.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I still remember (13 years later) this scene from the control theory class at Akron: For the second 5 week period of the 15 week semester, you needed to know the trick of using a protractor (to get distance and angle) to aproximate a transfer function from a pole-zero plot in order to solve 4 out of the 5 test problems. I clearly remember a student asking outright for a demonstation of how to do this (it wasn't in our text books) and the teacher drawing a diagram on the board in about 2 square inches while hiding it from view then grabbing the eraser, clearing it off the board, turning to the class with a big smile and saying, "isn't that easy?". I don't know if the teacher is still there or not.
Now to be fair, there were some teachers at Akron that were quite good and really cared about whether or not the class came away with something of value.
In the end, though, if I had it to do over again I would choose to go to another school. If I could have afforded CWRU at the outset, I would have as it rates as one of the better Engineering schools in the nation.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
The fact you graduated is generally good enough, the actual school is less important. Your completed degree, interview performance and personality will get you the job. I assume any job a person gets based largely on the school they went to will probably end up being a lame job, exception for academic appointments.
But, over time, several caveats showed up, and Noway2's eloquent comments remind me.
Companies with strong HR departments enforced hiring policies often look very closely at school's and their various national rankings. This HR process is brutal, spurious and unfair (lumping all people from a school together) and always disagreed with by the technical people (i.e. your prospective boss).
And, as Noway2 says, you learn some schools just don't measure up: I've seen repeated lame assignments, even the same assignment briefs, from certain schools over a 10 year period.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
It's a fact that you try harder when challenged more, and you get challenged more when surrounded by smarter people. That's not to say that you don't get gems in other schools, but attending a school where you compete against the best forces you to go the extra mile. That's a trait that stays with you throughout your career.
-
Syl.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
http://www
http://fin
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Is it worth it to spend $25k? Maybe, maybe not - since you may also be required to go full time, you might have to quit your job or go part time. That will set you back a whole lot more than $25k unless you can find free room and board.
Is it a good idea to stay at Akron? Probably not based on the review by Noway2
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
As for my school, we had a guy who was a senior my freshman year, and graduated the same year I did. Supposedly, one class, "Introduction to Complex Variables," kept him from graduating. I think that most highly ranked schools are not so draconian
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Additionally, being the class standout affords different opportunities. I know when I was in undergrad, most people in my structural classes came to me with questions rather than the professors. This provided two mechanisms by which to improve myself. First, I realized that my classmates had rather high expectations of me (which I did not want to disappoint). Second, I remember the saying that the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else. It helps you think about things in a way that will enable you to answer questions (and think about what those questions might be), and truly make sense of something and truly understand it so that you don't spout your mouth off not knowing what you're talking about and look like a fool later.
Just my two cents.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
So I went to the University of Oklahoma and got a great education instead.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
sometimes grad students make good teachers. i've had a couple of TA's that created a lot of "a-ha!! now i get it" moments for me...not just in EE either.
as far as i know, actually learning how to teach isn't a part of any PhD program. i've known too many profs that couldn't survive without powerpoint (one of the reasons i hardly went to class).
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Sure, that's true. But the only real difference between accredited schools is the professors and the amount of research they do. Schools aren't judged by their prowess at educating young minds, they are judged on their professor's research output.
So a highly ranked school is ranked highly because of the professors, but the professors don't make much of an impact on undergraduate education. So how highly a school is ranked is a poor indicator of the quality of undergraduate education available at the school.
I say that all accredited engineering schools offer about the same material, and that the student's attitude is much more important than what school they attend.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
unfortunately that's true; they all do care more about research than teaching. i went to a sub-par college (in my opinion) and had to make the best of it. i think i did, given all the work i put in, but i don't think i know nearly as much as i should given my effort.
carnage1,
that's one benefit of powerpoint but in my experience in lectures where powerpoint is used, "teaching" usually is reduced to a prof simply reading off the slides. reading and teaching are completely different things. in lectures, there's not enough "explaining" of what is really happening. i learned more in classes where profs went to the blackboards/whiteboards and actually drew circuits out and solved problems in a step by step manner instead of pre-made slides. this way you understand the process.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Many of the schools that show high in the ratings are schools that are devoted to research. As a result, these schools may be exceptional for someone going to graduate school, but can be a living-hell for an undergraduate degree.
Research professors who are forced to teach many times just have a foreign grad student do the class, or worse, do it themselves. If the emphasis at the institution is research and publishing, the professor will do what he can to get out of teaching undergraduates - even if it means flunking the entire class.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I guess take it for what it's worth, but we've been burned too many times from kids being passed through the mediocre schools.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I agree with this, but not for the reasons you might assume. The purpose of an engineering degree is not to train you to work as an engineer. How many of us perform hand calculations of highly idealized and largely impracticle problems for our jobs?
The real purpose of an engineering degree is to weed out people who are lazy and/or not particularly intelligent. In the US it is illegal for businesses to give job candidates IQ tests, but accepting only people from prestigious universities that require sky-high SAT scores (which are strongly correlated with IQ) is allowed. The better the university's reputation, the more sub-par candidates that get weeded out.
-Christine
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Really? What's the rationale behind that?
- Steve
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Do I agree with this method of thinking, no. If I did, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now, as my school would hardly be considered top notch by any means. But it doesn't take much to understand where these companies are coming from.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
htt
As I understand the ruling, you are permitted to quiz job candidates, but only if you can demonstrate that the questions asked are pertinant to the specific job requirements.
-Christine
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
- Steve
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
As for the testing, anything that cannot be proven to be a direct job requirement will get you in trouble.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I still do high level hand calcs. How else would you know what is going on with your design?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I get your overall point, you're just REALLY limiting your talent pool.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Hg
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
A 10 yr engineer isn't really any different. You just have to factor in their work experience in addition to where they graduated. A great mentor COULD erase some of the damage done by a mediocre program, but it's case by case and the employer is really taking a chance. PE means nothing. If you're in this profession, you should have your SE2 by year 7...maybe 8.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
It is kinda industries fault, although not all jobs require the best engineers. Where I work now, one of the other engineers was amazed that I could do beam calcs by hand... partly because he had never been asked to do any calcs out of school. Many Companies either are to busy to "use" their engineers, or just use them for drafting or pointless work. Which results in schools saying "90% of or Grades are Engineers." Which continues them doing the same old...
MuEagle05
I have complained about something related to this...
thread731-217096: GPA Vs. Experiance
I have found out that most Engineers at my job are from higher end Uni's, and I assume, with Higher GPA's. And only one of them does anything that I could consider "challenging" engineering work. He and I have been used for all the more complex calculations... the other 4 only do drafting work.
Relating this back to the discussion.
They did get their jobs because they are from higher end Uni's, all are also really good guys. However I made it in, going to a state school, and less than impressive grades, even before I knew I passed the FE.
My best advice is that if your getting A-B's at your current school, start doing "Engineering" related activities, take more challenging classes, spend as much time as possible in the machine shop or a Lab, make Connections with as many engineering friends as possible. Also, unless you get scholarships, coming out of a state school with less debit will be nice.
One of my best mentor always said "the cream rises to the top".
PS I Highly recommend study abroad!
Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Do you work for Walter P. Moore or something? I work for a pretty prestigious firm in our area. We work with very prestigious architects on a lot projects that end up in magazines and newspapers. I think I only ended up here because some people fro higher profile schools went somewhere for more money, but I have proven myself at least as valuable as my colleagues with graduate degrees from schools like VT, Cornell, and Berkeley.
They actually hired someone else from my program just because of my performance.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
We have been talking about Top Notch vs Mediocre schools as if there was a list someone that divided them all up. The truth is someone's opinion of a school is dependent on their own history and experiences. And plenty of "Top schools" have bad programs and there are schools, unknown otherwise, with excellent programs in particular fields.
To take StructuralEIT's last post as an example, it sounds like his employers orginally were hiring from only top schools. They then hired StructuralEIT who (I'm guessing from his post) didn't go to a "top" school. He did well, and they hired another graduate from the same school. So whatever school he went to has gone up in their opinion. It's not that they now think better of all schools because of StructuralEIT, but they now have experience that you can hire good employees from that school.
I'm also sure there are people out there that got burned by bad hires from MIT or someplace and have sworn off hiring from "those" schools.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
One of the best results from my having gone to a top grad program is that I still have easy access to the faculty. It may not work this way for undergrad programs; probably depends on the size of the program. In my case, though, my advisor is one of the top technical experts in a lot of matters that I deal with on a regular basis, and being able to just dash off a quick question to him is priceless. I'm not saying that he *wouldn't* answer questions from outsiders, but I generally don't feel comfortable asking questions like that of faculty members at other insitutions where I don't have a personal connection.
Regarding the worth of the students themselves, though, I agree with some others that after a certain number of years of experience, it ought not to matter. People who could have made it at the top programs but chose not to attend ought to be able to shine at work, and people who got through a top program by rote will be unremarkable at work. On the other hand, it's hard to find out whether someone did poorly at their last job.
Hg
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
http:
What do you think? Where was your school ranked. Mine was in the low 300's does that mean I went to a bad school? I also noticed some schools were rated very low but I would say most people would call them top tier (like Georgia Tech at 501).
SW 2007 SP 5.0
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
What about these rankings:
http://www.webometrics.info/top4000.asp
What do you say?
HTH
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
h
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Bogus.
I am hoping this site is a joke. The rankings are based on:
1) who has the most hits in search engines (Google, Yahoo, etc.)
2)the number and type and size of files you can find on their websites
3) the number of references in papers and publications in Google Scholar
4)The number of unique external links
I needed a good laugh, thanks.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Actually, all joking aside, that list illustrates my point.
In my biased mind, Case Western Reserve is a better school than U of Cali San Diego. Why is that? If've never been to either. (Please, no one take offence, I'm just trying to illustrate a point) But because I've lived much closer to CWRU, and knwon a few people that went there, I am much more aware of the school.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
http:
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I didn't notice your discipline was bio-engineering. In that case I would definitely try to go to CWRU. They have a very good program for bio-med (4th according to the US News rankings) and they have all the industry right in Cleveland. I got my BS in aero-eng from CWRU in '05 and I liked the school and program. I learned quite a bit and was challenged every step of the way.
--Jay
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Its all relative unless you go to Harvard, Standford, MIT, Oxford, or Yale.
For example one listed the U of Washington at 300th and the other listed it at 93rd in the world?..... I just love statistics!
Hell according to one of those I went to the 68th highest ranked school in the world and got a 2.99 GPA!... hahaha find that hard to believe... I must to a genius?
Official DIPPED Member -
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Money talks!! See:
h
HTH
Regards
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
That is hard to stomach.
The mediocre school (U. of Akron) would cost me almost nothing. It's only $1600/4-credit course
I already have $25k in undergrad loans. I get the jist of what people are saying, the top notch schools are better, but wow, there is a large price gap.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
You quoted: "Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."
Curious who's quote is this? Citation?
Thanks.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university." -dougantholz
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
That would be in thread731-222678: ME or BME masters.
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
1) As far as undergraduate engineering, goes what you achieve is probably more dependent on how motivated you are. You can get a good grounding in fundementals at a mediocre school and have known many good engineers who came 2nd tier ( sounds nicer than mediocre) schools. Also new some engineers from 1st tier who did not know much at all. However, you will probably be pushed harder, and have the oppertunity to see more in terms on research at a first tier school. You should look at work load if you are thinking about CWRU and working.
All things being equal, I would encourage you to go to the best school you can afford. Although your GPA is not issue after your first job, Your school is. People need standards to make complicated judgements, and for your abilities as an engineer, your school will be (for right or wrong) the standard by which you are evaluated not only for hiring but as to the quality of your opinion, or the competency of your presentation to clients. People will decide your engineering ability based on level of education and quality of institution. This will be especially true of people you interact with who are not engineers.
I am sure many of you will comment that this is not fair. I am not saying it is. I am just saying that has been my experience in the world.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Specifically, graduates of Caltech or MIT, because they were, and are, extremely selective, even 30 yrs after graduation, there's still an expectation of higher performance from you. The plus side is that you get some level of authority not accorded to graduates of other schools.
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
What school you went isn't as hard of a hurdle to jump as what GPA you earned. I'd rather get a 3.1 GPA at Akron, than a 2.9 at MIT.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is broken, fix it. If it isn't broken, I'll soon fix that.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I can see both sides of the good job issue. Everyone here has thoughtfully laid out their opinions both philosophically and empirically. Some have approached the second question in evaluating the success of the student academically based on the level of competition and the quality of the curriculum. However IMO, these considerations are most relevant to your career as a scholar and only obliquely related to actual excellence in the profession (assuming you succeed in either setting). Granted, how fast you hit the ground running is of great importance to many of our fellow members who have climbed the heights and now sit in positions of responsibility for these types of concerns. Therefore, their appreciation of your school's status will directly affect your initial acceptance into the field. In the long run though, your professional excellence will be a direct function of your drive and ability. When you, through your hard work, professional ethics, continual learning and good attitude, become a subject matter expert; you will be in high demand regardless of your beginnings. I promise that the real learning starts after you graduate and start facing real-world problems. When you get there, listen to the old guys and learn what they can teach you. Take lots of notes. Learn the codes and company mechanisms. And never be afraid to try innovative approaches to problems. Whichever path you follow, apply yourself to the max. Don't be satisfied with anything but excellence. Never be too small to offer an opinion or too big to ask for help. Learn from others, both from their successes and from their failures. If you want to become a good engineer, don't get stymied by problems like this. Choose a solution that solves the problem and apply it. And remember, often times the best solution to a problem is the simplest one.
Go do it!
Tom
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
It was as tough as could be to land a job even though I had high grades, experience and all.
Once I landed the first job, no one ever cared of my schooling, employers cared about the projects I did, how well I did them, how fast I did them, how much unpaid overtime I was willing to put in, and how little I asked.
It was simply supply and demand.
Can you all name one Indian university or one Philipino University? No. Yet, we import a whole bunch of them every year.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Odds are good that over a career what you end up doing has nothing to do with theory and lab from college, at least unitl you get to a comfortable position. For the short term, "sucking up" may be of benefit-the Neil & Bob School of Management would be recommended over Wharton, if you have a taste for that.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
No matter. Knew someone who went to Caltech to major in physics. After 2 quarters, he declared EngLit, and went into the Peace Corps after graduation.
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RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I have moved on from that first job and I am confident that my income is greater than the most MIT guys; however the money is not the important thing. The important thing is that I am having a lot more fun than most folks. So this begs the question, does going to one of the 5 top USA engineering universities/colleges give you a better chance at being happy?
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
1. I went to Carleton University. It had long had a reputation as "last chance U" as it operated on an interesting principle that "Every student has the right to fail". In the last couple of decades, however, we've become the top jounalism school, top architecture school, and (stream dependant) the top or near top engineering school. We also have highly respected International Policy and Public Affairs, as well as Political Science departments. BUT still the reputation can dog the graduates...
When I got my first job, at one of the longest established and best respected Structural firms in Canada, I was told flat out that they would never had hired a Carleton B.Eng. grad had I not come with personal recomendations from the President of Professional Engineers Ontario and carrying several Engineering competition wins under my arm.
After having worked at the job for six months I was personally thanked by the President for my work, and he (a graduate from a much more prestigious school, admitted that I was a better prepared and more practical graduate than any of the current graduates from his Alma Mater.
2. I moved to a foreign country after two years of Professional Practice in Canada; Just long enough to claim minimum two years Canadian experience appropriate for licensing. My degree, and any degree for that matter, has only one bias towards it: "Canadian". If you're willing and able to get overseas, your degree does not mean anything, only your abilities and the much mentioned experience, experience, experience, counts. Leaving your own country is the Ultimate academic background equaliser.
All of that aside, I do wonder where all of the "connections" of a more well known University may have taken me. I'll just have to be satisfied with knowing that I've received a top-notch education, and can certainly prove myself through my abilities and experiences.
Cheers,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
You won a couple of engineering competitions, which ones? I've never personally been to CEC, but I ran part of WEC (the Western Canada regional).
I've never heard or gotten the impression that any engineering schools in Canada are particularly better or worse than others. Some have really strange systems and maybe lacking in the newest lab equipment, but overall in my regional and national experience... we all do nearly the same courses. Some schools however, like Waterloo, have a good reputation. I'm not sure why, but all I can figure out is that they just have a giant engineering program with a good selection of disciplines. However, they do have a mandatory co-op program which creates a massive advantage post graduation, in my opinion (my school, UVic, is modeled on theirs and almost identical).
I'm not sure whether you are saying it is a negative or positive bias that you have a Canadian engineering degree. My experiences have told me that our engineering accreditation system (with all of its Canadian-known faults) is very highly respected world wide. I'm curious whether your personal experience says otherwise.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
generally speaking.
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
First off, I won two different competitions, one locally with PEO (Professional Engineers Ontario), another within an inter-University competition between Ottawa U, Carleton, Queens and U of T. To get to both competitions I had to compete at Carleton itself, placing first in the pre-PEO speaking competition and second in the inter-U primary.
I've also been a member of several teams that placed well (Great Norther Concrete Toboggan and Timber Bridge).
As for the bias towards Canadian Engineering Degrees, it is completely positive, when it exists. Most of the time people don't know anything about it, but trust you automatically because you're Canadian. The image we have, for the most part, is of clean-living, polite, nice people. I've always thought that was a bit of a joke, but on average, from what I have experienced overseas, I have come to see that we actually deserve said reputation.
As for Universities in Canada, you're right about the consistency. If a University doesn't toe the line, CEAB comes down on them like a ton of bricks. I've heard of multiple loss of accreditations, and severe warnings, even from "reputed" universities.
Waterloo made their name by, as far as I have been told, INVENTING the Engineering Co-Op program in the early 1960s.
Other than all of that, I believe very strongly that it is the quality and motivation of person that makes the engineer, along with a good dose of oppotunity and POST graduation mentoring. If you went to a Canadian school, you have the foundation needed to build a career. I cannot comment on other countries except New Zealand, where I now assist with the teaching of 2nd year Structural Design as an Industry Mentor. I believe Canterbury produces very high quality engineers, much more versed in Seismic design than any Canadian graduate, slightly less in depth on the regular stuff and some theory (read: fine details of theory and good detailing practice) than a Canadian graduate. This is understandable as they concentrate so heavily on EQ. It does annoy me though when I talk about welding details and get blank stairs. They just don't learn much about it.
Sorry for yet another long post!
*smiles*
Regards,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
The University of Cincinnati in Ohio did in 1906.
http://www.eng.uc.edu/prospectivestudents/coop/
Maybe they were the first to bring it to Canada?
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Great to see good things coming out of the states (ie: co-op). Being Canadian I'm supposed to have a "certain bias", but I really like the US engineering style; Lots of manuals, examples, explanations and procedures. Makes the continual learning needed in our Profession that much easier. I'm thoroughly convinced that if the US had actually gone metric codes like ACI 318 and AISC Steel Design would have been adopted by other countries outright. And yes, I am aware the there are Metric editions, however nearly all the rest of the supporting material is imperial only.
Good codes, crappy units.
On the matter of quality of University, I think I'm done. I'll probably keep reading, but suspect this thread has now truly been completely reviewed.
Cheers,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Presumably the stairs are blank because they're made of wood and don't take kindly oxy-acetylene torches?
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
Can't speak for the Colonies, but in the UK, the 'top' universities do tend to have teaching in line with the quality of the candidates that they get.
A few points to bear in mind (some re-iterating what's been said earlier):
- Whilst any given individual *may* do very well and learn significant amounts at a Steerage rather than a 1st Class Stateroom institution, the chances are that they won't.
- The quality of the individuals you will interact with on the course is likely to be lower at No Hope U rather than Big Brains U. As my wife has opined, a good horn player will get dragged down into the mud in a 4th section Brass Band, but will get pulled up in a Championship Band (or get sacked!). The kind of people who make the better universities are more likely to be 'professional' in their attitudes, more interested in their subject and more demanding of the staff.
- The confidence of the individuals I've worked with from Oxbridge or Imperial (at least in Engineering) is usually higher and they have greater presence and impact - it rarely a surprise to me to find out that a good individual has gone to a good establishment.
- Never mind about your (potential) employers, how would *you* feel about it and how you think others would think about you? Ask yourself the "I wish I'd ..." before you get near some important life milestone. (exemplum: I'm glad I learned to fly when I did, late though it was, because I developed a medical problem a couple of years later that grounded me, but at least I'd done some flying and the number of people I meet who've always wanted to fly but not got round to it is saddening. OTOH, whilst I'm not unhappy with my education, good U with a quite specific course, I wish, in retrospect, that I'd taken a more general course at Oxbridge, both to get an improved education and to gain the general 'edge' that many of my Oxbridge (actually, mainly Cambridge) colleagues have compared to *most* individuals who seem equally intelligent and motivated but went elsewhere)
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I would agree with the above quote. A middle of the pack student from a tough curriculum is usually better than the upper tiers of a soft one. Of course I always evaluate candidates as individuals, not as members of any "group".
I have a policy of quizzing applicants. I've done this for decades with no trouble at all. The questions consist of problems directly relevant to the job scope. Also, they are *already solved* problems. I never seek free advice through a quiz. It works very well. Students who bomb the quiz generally have little to show regarding academics, experience, oral interview skills, etc. Those who ace it were candidates who already looked very promising.
You would be amazed at some of the basic questions a lot of applicants miss. Not even in the ball park.
In summary, a tough curriculum, and being surrounded by the best of the best students forces a person to develop their full potential. There may be some individuals who are self starters and could work hard without tough competition. But, a class full of bright students provides diverse input. The papers, presentations, lab work, and answers in class are better with a bright class. Any individual is going to extract more in such a class.
To me, it isn't how big or expensive the university is, but rather, how tough. It just happens that MIT, Caltech, Stanford, Case, etc. are both prestigious and tough.
For the record, I went to Youngstown State for BEEE/MSEE (aka UCLA) back in the '70's. From 87-90 I taught at Univ of Akron. In 07 I returned to grad school at Case to pursue the doctorate. Case is very tough. But the Ph.D. is always tougher than BS or MS. YSU is tough as well. U of A is one I never studied at, only taught there. I was not tough, not easy. Some of my former students love me, others hate me, and some are ambivalent.
A highly motivated individual will find a way to succeed. A prestigious school gives a good head start, but after 5 to 10 yrs. in the field, the best individuals rise in spite of prior circumstances. Does this help?
Claude
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I definately was not discussing foot-fall lifting runs...
;0)
Cheers,
YS
B.Eng (Carleton)
Working in New Zealand, thinking of my snow covered home...
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I went to a so-called "stellar" university back in the 80's where is appeared that the profs viewed teaching as more of a burden than a privilege. For example, there were 50 or more guys in a senior level machine design course and the course was taught by a graduate student who know a lot about stress analysis but not so much practice and wisdom on the subject. As another example, there were no teacher evaluations to fill out at the end of the courses. It was obvious the faculty tried to weasel out of the teaching part of the job whenever possible by offloading the work to graduate students or junior faculty. Things have maybe changed by now but I can only report on my own experiences and impressions.
Tunalover
RE: Mediocre vs Top Notch university
I am an Industrial Engineer here in the United States for almost 10 years now but I didn't come from any of the prestigious university in this country. I got my education from my home country which is the Philippines. While I understand where the Companies are coming from, and why they wanna hire somebody from a prestigious university, I also agree with what StructuralEIT has stated "while I agree that on average, top tier school students may be smarter,that is just a general rule of thumb and every person should be evaluated based on their own merits."
Success cannot be determined by what school you have graduated from ,rather by how prepared you are when great opportunity comes your way.In my case, a great opportunity came and I was well prepared even though that preparation didn't come from one of the prestigious university here in the United States.
Kristine
Aquinas University Of Legazpi
Legazpi City,Philippines