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just a small nonconstructive rant

just a small nonconstructive rant

just a small nonconstructive rant

(OP)
I would just like to say that if my employer thinks that I (or any of my colleagues) can be corrupted by a plastic envelope opener or squishy toy with a corporate logo on it, I (and likewise the colleagues) should not be on the payroll to begin with.

Much as I prefer to be the client rather than the seller, this public sector gig is getting old. The assumption from both within (internal "service" and audit functions) and without (taxpaying public, politicians) is that all public servants are inherently corrupt and looking for ways to commit wrongdoing, and I'm sick and tired of being treated that way. And it's only getting worse. And it is certainly not unique to my particular employer; in fact, I'm better off than many of my peers at other agencies.

Feh.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant


WHAT, you got a plastic letter opener AND a logo toy!  And to think I was all butt-sore over several of my co-workers getting company-purchased iPhones.

eff-it....spend all day cruisin' the net

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

You need to visit the exhibitions and conferences more. The exhibitors often even provide you with carrier bags to take all the crap away.

I've given up collecting pens.... I have some that must go all the way back to Ladilaz Biro) except BP gave away one at a conference with a nice blue light that shines down through the clear plastic barrel of the pen onto the paper  except my wife stole this as soon as I got it some, and a memory stick with a discreet BP logo, and a clock thing that is also a weather station. The bigger the exhibition and the further from home the better the odds and sods that can be collected.

(By the way, HgTx, you're not having a good day today, are you?)soapbox
  
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

At one of my public-sector clients the dividing line between corruptible and non-corruptible swag was "the approximate value of a wall calendar".

Then a VP got caught accepting a free round of golf at an expensive club, and tickets to some Vegas show.

He got a gentle slap on the wrist, and the new rule became "no gifts at all".

So the moral is, ask for something better than a crappy envelope opener, because the punishment is inverse to the value of the bribe.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

(OP)
I'm having a bad day for no good reason, but the above post has been coming for a while.

I go to conferences. I get the gimme bags. I have a nice collection of squishy toys and letter openers, and for any auditors who may be following me around the web, my retractable badge clip says "Lincoln Electric" on it. This is within the bounds of our official written policy.

Some other agencies' employees can get fired for accepting so much as a pencil. Mine is of late headed in a similar direction. The latest is that they just banned "corporate trinkets" from the hospitality rooms at an upcoming conference. I don't even plan to go to that conference, so it's not that I'm throwing a tantrum for lack of badge lanyards and stress balls. It's just that there's no reason to ban something that is not expected to have ill effect. Which means they expect our ethics to be challenged by keychains and ballpoints.

Which is pretty goddam insulting. It's insulting enough if they think I'll sell out for a nice steak, but when they lower my price to the cost of a memo pad, that's just sad.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Companies go through some of the same cycles.  When I left BP the rule was--accept nothing without a logo on it, and things with a logo worth over $25 need to be reported to the company so their value can be added to your W-2.  At one time it was perfectly OK to fly on a vendor's jet to their hunting camp for a week of phesant or duck hunting.  The pendulum just keeps swinging.  Sounds like the public sector is swinging from silly to plumb-dumb.

David

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

I feel you pain -- I think its something that politicans and gov't HR departments keep busy with, instead of tackling issues of real importance to emplyee moral.

 

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

(OP)
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

I serve on a committee hosted by an industry association. This is okay; we specify their specifications so my involvement is good.

Said association decided it would be of benefit to committee function for all the committee members to also be members of another association because the information in their newsletters and other resources would be of use to us in our committee roles. So they offered to pay for everyone's membership in this other association.

I'm not allowed to accept paid membership in this other association because there might be a benefit to *me* buried somewhere in there. As it happens, I don't really want this membership, and there's nothing of great personal benefit to me that wouldn't also be a benefit to my employer (discounts on publications that I just can't see keeping on my bedstand), but my employer is not willing to take my word for that. Since the second organization, like any organization, has a page describing how great it is to be a member, they have to point to that and show how I cannot be allowed to "profit" from the first organization buying me the membership.

It is seen, somehow, as no different from them buying me a country club membership.

Judgement is out the window.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Not necessarily in their defense, but it's not really a question of quid pro quo, but of name recognition and retention.  While the trinkets aren't worth much, you obviously remember that your lanyard came from Lincoln Electric, so to some degree, you potentially have a more positive attitude towards them than some other guy you never heard of before.

Giving trinkets WORKS!  That's why doctors prescribe the latest and greatest drugs, rather than the cheaper, tried and true ones, because they get samples.  They get SO MANY samples that each monthend, there's a massive cleanup to collect and dispose the soon-to-be-expired drugs.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Find out who makes those rules and offer them a free pencil to change the rule.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Quote:

Giving trinkets WORKS!

It's just advertising.  It's effective because your trinket is something like an ID lanyard, or a coffee mug that there is a good chance the recipient will use every day, or set on his desk - thus keeping the giving company's name always in mind.

But still, it's just advertising.

So what is the next level of absurdity?  Will public agencies declare that employees cannot read trade journals because a potential supplier might be an advertiser?

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

I have worked in the public sector and refused the squishy toys and in private handing out the squishy toys.  I would rather the world just get to work and stop playing with the toys.  I hated to be on both ends but giving them away was worse than refusing them.

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Quote:

It's just advertising
  Precisely!  That's why billions are spent each year on that.  And that's why lobbyists get to spend their millions, since name recognition is what it's all about.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

first rule of advertising, get something in the guys hand that he is going to use, then make sure your name is where he can see it.
 So what's wrong with that?
B.E.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

I think that your first rule was supposed to start with "if you can't find a way to link the use of your product to increased opportunities for sex, then..."

We've got some strict rules about ethics here, too, and we're tested on them every year.  After the test we have to answer a questionaire about our own activities during the year, and if we leave any interesting answers we get to talk to an attorney from corporate legal affairs.  

As an example, when my son was born a former coworker of mine sent a $25 babies-r-us gift card.  unfortunately, he now works for a competitor, and one of the survey questions was along the lines of "have you in the last year accepted anything of value from someone who works for a supplier or competitor?"  Obviously the right answer was yes, which is what I marked... so I got to spend about 20 minutes talking it over with an irritable attorney, who eventually chided me for not realizing that the question only applied if I was in a position to influence decisions which might affect our relationship with that competitor (it didn't say that anywhere on the survey).  The take-away was that I apparently don't have to interpret the questions so literally in the future, and should excercise judgement in which activities I report.  I'm sure that the people who are getting bribed by suppliers will be relieved to hear that.


 

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Since common sense and morals are in a great decline among the masses, well meaning but clueless people have decided that more rules are a good substitute and a good defense.  It's everything from mandatory sentencing guidelines for judges to mandatory rules for school principals.  A child was suspended from school in Virginia Beach for bring a replica gun to school under such a rule.  He bought the replica during a school field trip to Colonial Williamsburg and was apprehended when the bus returned to the school.    HgTX, if you do sell out for a good steak or a pencil, at least they can point to the rules/training and cover their butts.  It's stupid, but it is, so get used to it.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Got a letter from a customer stating they were adopting the no gift rule. I brought this matter up when it was suggested that we buy lunch one day. The customer employee in question had no problem with this. Conclusion: the no gift rule doesn't work.

I recently learned that as a public employee in my state, I am considered to be a "public official" and that state ethics rules covering public officials apply. $50 per year per gift giver, and no entertainment at all. Lunch is considered a gift, and not entertainment. I think accepting lunch is a gift, since I am dealing with business on my own time. As usual, they forgot to ask me.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

I all depends on your rank as a government official/public servant.

An engineer who receives a free lunch or logo trinket is defacto guilty of poor ethics based on some HR policy.

On the other hand, a politician who receives straight up cash $$$ for "campaign funding" from a special interest lobbiest is OK.

I would put my money on the engineer, not the lawyer (e.g. politician), as to which one is better able to discern true ethical behavior.   

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

(OP)
Lunch is another thing. Usually they're begging to take us to lunch because if they pay for us, they can put the lunch on their expense account, but if they just pay for themselves, it's on them. I figure we're doing them the favor, not the other way round. Not many people in charge see it that way, of course.

"the question only applied if I was in a position to influence decisions which might affect our relationship with that competitor"

Yeah, see, that's the aspect that they're starting to lose track of around here. They just tightened the rules on people in procurement positions, and most managers have decided to disregard the distinction and apply the new rules to all of us. Because they're afraid to exercise judgement. On anything. Ever. I could go on a "zero tolerance in schools" rant of my own. It's their perogative to tighten the rules, but it annoys me that they claim that the rules have been changed for us. They haven't (except for that one conference). It's just that the paranoia level has gone up. And the rules probably *will* continue to change in that direction.

Yeah, I know, suck it up.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Hg,

You sum up lunch correctly.  But even if the vendor appears to pay, the cost is eventually passed to the customer.  Funny stuff, internal politics/accounting.

- Steve

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

When I worked for a big company, I was really careful to pick up at least half the lunch tabs--kept me out of those uncomfortable meetings with lawyers.

Now I'm a contractor and am amazed at how many company employees would no more pick up a tab than fly.  And everyone I know has a corporate credit card.  One guy blatantly solicited a serious bribe (I had a talk with his boss when I stopped by to tell him that I was dropping them as a client).  I'm just not so very sure that Engineers can actually teach politicians about ethics.

David

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

I recall, once, being taken to lunch by a sales engineer who proceeded to park in a handicap slot, and then hung a handicap sign on his mirror.  Only thing I could see that was handicapped was his moral compass.  Never did any business with him thereafter.

As mentioned by others, Government employees are not supposed accept lunches provided by their suppliers.  So, when we cater meals, we put out a "Straight Arrow" box to collect what they are supposed to consider the value of the meal to be.  Usually, it's empty at the end of the meal.  One time, we saw one of the customers actually taking money out of the box.

Temptation is temptation, there's nothing that makes an engineer any more immune to temptation than anyone else.   

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Quote:

Usually they're begging to take us to lunch because if they pay for us, they can put the lunch on their expense account

Yes and no.

If you are fortunate enough to be able to foot the bill for client's lunches you get to fill out the "entertainment" version of the expense form rather than the standard version.

It has places for:

Who was present?  What was the purpose?

The purpose is usually something like "Emphasize the many advantages of doing business with us rather than one of our competitors."

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

At one of our user conferences I told the barman to stick the bar bill for the evening reception on my room.  A few weeks later I get a snotogram from one of our bean counters, demanding to know which clients were being entertained.  I replied:

"All of our attending clients were invited.  For a full list of attendees, please contact *******.  I cannot give an accurate list of who took up the offer or what they ate and drank."

I heard nothing more.

- Steve

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

In the USA, the costs incurred for a "business entertainment" expense are a tax deduction for the business spending the money.  The IRS has rules about what can and can't be deducted (food yes, booze no) and what records need to be kept.  There needs to be something defensible as a business purpose for the expense.

All of this is auditable - certainly by the IRS, and very possibly by clients.

All of this is discoverable.

Many low-level (and even high-level) people in public service do not seem to understand this.  There is a paper trail.  If your rules prohibit gifts, free lunch, or whatever, and you allow a vendor to buy lunch for you - your name is very clearly written on the expense report.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

God bless America's IRS.

See a penny, pick it up, all day long you'll have good luck.  But then the next day you'll be busted for not paying tax on that penny.

- Steve

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

My colleagye received a pubic b***ocking from the MD for putting a double Famous Grouse on his room bill while at a conference.

The MD then attended another conference in London himself.
The bean counters, unable to give him the B***ocking he deserved, "leaked" * details of his room bill.
He had stupidly used the hotel phone and run up a bill for £180 ($360 in todays money but more nearly $240 then).

*Leaks: Bernard Woolley suggests:

Quote:

It's another of those irregular verbs. I hold confidential briefings, you leak, he's been charged under section 2A of the Official Secrets Act.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Yes,_Prime_Minister

  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

(OP)
Whether the card-carrying employee in question actually *does* the sales-talking that they claim on their expense report is not auditable. That part is their problem, not mine.

I had a particularly convoluted situation in which the supplier was contractually responsible for my travel costs, including food. So if I went to lunch with them and paid my own way, they'd get the bill eventually regardless. If I went to lunch with them and let them pay, then their employees got to have a free lunch. My pocket was the same either way.

Nevertheless, in the interest of "perception", we had to sit them down and tell them that much as we enjoyed and appreciated their kind hospitality, we couldn't accept so much of it. I felt like a real party-pooper, because they had been using us as an excuse to round up lots of their people to come have lunch on the company card. Yes, that "free" lunch would eventually trickle over if not to us (our contract was already signed) then to some future customer of theirs. But all the low-level employees saw, of course, was that their free lunch was going away.

The reason we had to draw the line, though, wasn't the logical, financial explanation about trickle-down expenses. It really was nothing more than the perception that the supplier was omigawd buying us lunch!!1! on a contract in which the supplier had to pay for that lunch anyway. But they had to do that paying through less direct channels.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

Saddest of all is when the company bans you from receiving interstitial perks.... one company I worked for used to give everyone a Christmas bonus package of a Hamper, wines etc. When the taxman found out and tried to make it part of the taxable income they help a Christmas raffle where, funnily enough, everyone won one prize, a hamper with wine etc.
But where the taxman failed the bean counters succeeded.

Now whether bribing your own workers is also unethical or not I don't know. Obviously they did expect to gain from it. One thing is for sure, when they did away with the scheme, productivity and morale took a dive. The only area of increased productivity was around the coffee machine.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

The bigger the Corporation (Gov't or otherwise), the sillier it gets.  I once was employed by a large multi-national corporation who made all the employees read and sign a Ethics Book of Rules, and neatly printed on the back page was the Corporate Address which was a tax haven in the West Indies.  Nice.  A group of the CEO/CFO gang was subsequently in court and some are doing jail time now.  It's been said before, and will continue, the more paranoid society becomes:  "Process and Procedure is the hiding place for people without the wit and wisdom to do their job properly".

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

My employer puts on a panto trip for employees' kids each year.  I wonder how the tax man would see that.

- Steve

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

In college I was president of my school's ASCE chapter and we would always get the boxes of leftover gadgets and trinkets at the end of a career fair.  They usually just turned into projectiles slung into the hallway at any innocent passerby.

Maybe you should just build up an arsenal at work and let your agression out that way.  Its a better stress reliever than the foam hard hats anyways.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant


Two months after everyone signed the Ethics Rules Review, our CEO was given the golden parachute.

Found out that he was sleeping with a secretary.

She was also let go with a hefty sum.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

In my 2nd job, it was the Safety Affairs officer and the VP of Human Relations.  Both married, both in their late 40's to early 50's.  In the "board room" (large conference room on top floor of executive office bldg.)

RE: just a small nonconstructive rant

(OP)
That's just the thing.  The high-ups who make these policies base them on what nonsense *they* know *they* would get up to, not on what we in the trenches are actually likely to get up to.

We can hardly get away to go to conferences, because the legislators would treat such a conference as a big junket and so they assume we would too.  Never mind that we actually take technical conferences seriously.

Hg

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