Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
(OP)
A hospital I am doing has a new file storage room with rolling racks for storage of patient records.
Original ceiling height was to be 10'-0" but due to duct conflicts (hard to believe this would happen in a hospital) the ceiling had to be lowered to 9'4. Rack height is 8'-0". Clearance between sprinkler and top of rack is under 18"
Does anyone know of an alternative to having to lower the racks to maintain the required 18" clearance?
Original ceiling height was to be 10'-0" but due to duct conflicts (hard to believe this would happen in a hospital) the ceiling had to be lowered to 9'4. Rack height is 8'-0". Clearance between sprinkler and top of rack is under 18"
Does anyone know of an alternative to having to lower the racks to maintain the required 18" clearance?





RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
do you need 18 inches when using a sidewall???
add more heads???
raise the ceiling around the heads so you get the 18 as long as you to not obstruc the spray pattern??
There cannot be duct covering the entire room
raise the cieling as much as possible and lower wher there is duct, and add heads as needed??
you are only talking two inches
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
The only straw I can find is 8.5.6.4.
8.5.6* Clearance to Storage.
8.5.6.4 A minimum clearance to storage of less than 18 in. (457 mm) between the top of storage and ceiling sprinkler deflectors shall be permitted where proven by successful large-scale fire tests for the particular hazard.
which I doubt this has happened but you never know until you ask.
The area in question is not a large area it measures about 10'x20' and the problem really isn't mine because someone else lowered the ceiling.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
By the way.......I am a huge supporter of smoke detection for early notification even when adequate water based fire protection systems are provided. Some hazards warrant both sprinklers and smoke detection.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
NOW do not get me wrong, I am not saying you can eliminate the sprinklers, I am just saying in this case the fire detection played a large roll in the eventual extinguishment of the fire.
****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
You need an independent detection system tied to you water based protection. Can you say Pre-action?
There is always a cause/effect relationship to owner's decisions. This one seems simple to me, you did not choose to use the compact/track shelving, the owner did.
The next best option is likely pre-action or perhaps gaseous based protection in combination with pre-action. Why try to suggest other methods such as extended coverage heads, or sidewalls, when this would clearly be outside their product listing? Do you really want that liability?
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
Gaseous systems are also not a very wise approach because we are dealing with ordinary combustible materials (seated fires). Most gaseous systems are not designed or applicable for ordinary combustible materials; they are not considered an effective extinguishing agent for ordinary combustibles and the fire usually re-ignites after the concentration of the gaseous extinguishing agent dissipates.
As a FPE, we must understand that NFPA codes do not cover every possible scenario. In some instances we are required to use our experience and engineering judgement to develop designs which will be effective for the given occupancy/situation when the applicable codes/standards and product listings do not specifically fit a certain situation. Taking into acount the relatively small size (200 sq. ft.) of the room, understanding the reasoning behind the 18 in. clearance requirement and then doing a little research and math using the proven/tested umbrella pattern for a specific sprinkler head to confirm the water spray will not be obstructed is a solid engineering approach. I would also like to see smoke detection in this room for prompt manual response.
I would need to confirm several facts prior to writing a letter for this project, but I still maintain this approach is probably the best (and most economical) solution given the information included in the above posts by SD2.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
This may be a good time to ask the client how important are the records and can they be recreated with little or no $$ or loss of business. If the answer is NO, better have the client think again about this type of shelving system. Remember just because it is on site does not mean we can protect it.
****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
Just taking a wild guess but the files are manual??? no electic motors???
Than about all that is left is lights and the smoker some one will bring up.
So the possibility of a fire starting in here???
Add more sprinkers????
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
http
I'll sit back and await the results of the suppression theory equations and fire tests that are performed. For now, this paper offers some relatively good interim measures.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
I neglected to attach the test report. Tom was again correct in that smoke detection is important for these installations. I would also consider fire-resistive separation of storage rooms from the remainder of the tenant spaces or occupancy.
ht
I can see some real firefighter awareness issues that need to be communicated to responders - especially given the number of these systems installed in law offices, whom seem to always have the really nice offices on the top floors of high rise buildings.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
This a unique case where fire detection in combination with fire-resistive construction will work well. In a sprinklered building this storage configuration requires a high degree of respect.
I understand from the FPE supervising the tests that the test results will be reflected in NFPA 13. This is a problem because this style of storage needs NFPA 72 compliant detection.
Based on my discussions with the supervising FPE the problem needs more tests but it offers enough for lower-level archieve fire risks.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
Thanks for posting the links to the information, very interesting reading. This is yet another case where we think just put a sprinkler in place and everything will be OK. After all it works so well so many times before, why not here? Just think this all got started with the old 18" rule and how to make it fit. So perhaps in a few years we will have an answer, and a code section to reference for this hazard. But just think of all of these storage units that will be sold between now and then. I wonder if the manufactures are aware of the test results and the fire protection problem they are creating by installing the product??
Smoke detection, and a rated fire enclosure seem the way to go. Smoke is an easy fix, BUT the rated fire enclosure will be the challenge on retrofit applications. Yea I know you can not ask for this after the fact, put I sure can!
I believe CDA asked the question where is the source of the fire? Some of the larger units have electric motors to move the units. Also you can not forget our friendly arsonist. I recall a large record storage fire in NJ in the 1990's where an arsonist got to two 100K sq. ft. record storage warehouses to damage records.
****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters' Lives Too!
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
I am having a hard time figuring out why you guys are getting so concerned about this storage arrangement. The test results in each test show the fire was controlled in each instance with 0.10 density. The storage arrangement has a relatively slow fire propogation, the heat generation is slower than even most light hazard occupancies, room temperatures were not excessive and the number of operating sprinklers was acceptable. The tests were allow to burn free for 80-90 minutes with no manual fire fighting efforts. We are dealing with control mode sprinklers and each of these tests were a complete success during the early periods (you could even make a strong case they were a success for the entire 80-90 minute test period). In a real world fire incident, fire fighters would be able to extinguish the fire relatively quickly after arriving on the scene. Consider all of the above AND realize we are talking about a 0.10 density with no fire walls to hinder fire spread outside of the storage array!
In a 200 sq. ft. room with fire subdivision, sprinkler protection (maybe use a 0.25 gpm/sq. ft. density if you will sleep better), and smoke detection to ensure a prompt response, I would say we are golden.
What specifically am I missing??
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
Your post implies that you want sprinklers to protect your client from all hazards. Fire does not follow that model. These storage systems are based on multiple permutations and it really requires either:
A - Major and detailed engineering analysis
B - Survey of the hazards and the application of economical and reliable engineering controls.
FFP1 has the same logic as mine: LH1 sprinklers appears to work. My response to my clients is smoke detection and some fire-resistive separation. What these reports don't consider is the value of the contents. If its the Federalist Papers on how the US constitution was written, those are historically important. If its Enron's shareholder plans, well I currently use those as toilet paper.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
B - Survey of the hazards and the application of economical and reliable engineering controls.'
I am not a PE and therefore don't concider myself qualified to do either one of these. I need to see it in the standard for me to apply and it seems to date the committee has not done so.
I am sprinkler only guy. Reading the report, I have an idea of some of the conciderations that should be taken into account and advise the client of some of the issues involved and why this requires proper concideration by a PE.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
A suitable protection scheme for this exact situation is not currently provided by NFPA 13; therefore, it would be prudent to involve a qualified FPE.
RE: Rolling fire storage racks of the sort seen in hospitals
"A suitable protection scheme for this exact situation is not currently provided by NFPA 13; therefore, it would be prudent to involve a qualified FPE."
Absolutely.