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Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.
5

Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
Linked below is a spreadsheet I've set up for calculating positional tolerances.  

Typically I wouldn't expect to need to fill in the top portion but if copy is needed for records etc then I thought it may come in useful.

Please feel free to use it and/or to give constructive criticism.

If members think it would be worth it I'll put it as part of a FAQ.


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Kenat,

Im sure your intent is good.  However, I see no particular benefit in using the spreadsheet.  If the user does not how to apply the formula, there is a problem that I don't believe the spreadsheet will necessarily solve for him.  Perhaps add to the confusion.

FWIW

 

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

However, ringman, if the user knows how to apply the formula, then the spreadsheet becomes a welcome increase in efficiency.

Thanks, KENAT!

I'll let you know when I use it.

V

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

vc66,

If it increased efficiency, I say go for it.  However, it does not illustrate the need for projected height. Or am I missisng something.

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

4
(OP)
Ringman, see ASME Y14.5M-Appendix B4 as clearly referenced on the spreadsheet regarding projected tolerance.

As regards not seeing the benefit etc.  When I release this as a worksheet I'll add a worked example with some annotation/explanation etc.  One of my goals for the year is to try and teach people about matching hole patterns & doing the tolerance etc.  This only forms part of this effort.

As to all the pretty formatting, every now & then it's usefull/required to have a copy of a tolerance analysis for presentation/records, that's where it comes in.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Kenat,

The longer I look, the more questions that arise.  If this is a stud, which it appears to be, would you not tolerance the hole with the thread on the other end for starters?

And then apply a projection tolerance equivalent to the height of the stud which protrudes after assy?.

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
The image is based on an example from training material by Gary Whitmire, originally the sheet used the terminology from that training pack.  Perhaps a simpler/more classic threaded hole image would have been better.

I've already addressed the protrusion issue above.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Make a pie and people will complain about not having cake.  It is a useful spreadsheet for most applications.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the be

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Very nice.
I had a similar spreadsheet years ago at another company, but lost it. But never got around to recreating it.
It is also good to print out and send with the drawing to the checker.
Great job KENAT!

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
"It is also good to print out and send with the drawing to the checker."  That's kind of where I was heading.

(By the way, the colors are a compromise between looking OK on screen and printing out OK in B & W/Greyscale.)

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Thanks again, KENAT!  Something I've been procrastinating about.

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

You can also add the calendar option to Excel to add the date, if you don't want to type the date. I can send you the instructions if you need them.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
Doesn't the date auto update when you open the doc?  

Trouble with that is if someone just saves the excel then opens the excel at a later date the date changes.  Not a big deal for this but caused a pain when we had similar in one of our drawing formats.

A few things to think about:

Does it make sense to have 4 "clearance" or "interference" cells or would one be better.  Each does it's own check but it's the same equation re-aranged, if ones 'clearance' obviously so are the others.

Also, on the image that ringman brought up.  Just remembered the original had "MAJOR' under the FCF for the stud and I didn't copy it across.  Thinking about it that made sense for a stud & I probably should have left it in.  However I think what I'll actually do is create a new image with a classic threaded hole more like fig B-2 in Y14.5 and just add the annotation.

Any more constructive comments will be consideredwinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

There is no date with the file I downloaded...but is ok.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
Sorry, what I meant is that if you use the auto date from Excel you get the problem, so I didn't use it.

The field I put is blank but formatted for date.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
Chris, if you were talking about something other than the auto date then let me know, maybe I'm misunderstanding.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
OK, I know it's been a while and you've been overwrought with anticipation so without further ado or prevarication...

I've updated it with a more 'typical' figure closer to figure B2 in ASME Y14.5M-1994.

I've also given some examples showing how it can be used.

Please let me know what you think, if I've made any errors or it needs fine-tuning.

In return, I'll only charge you a nominal fee to use itwinky smile.
 

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Kenat, do you have a version of your spreadsheet that covers projected zone?  It wouldn't be a big deal to add it, but thought I would check if you'd already done it.

It's an awesome tool and has been very useful for me to double check my calcs (also much prettier :)

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
I haven't done that.  When we have interfaces of concern we tend to add an actual projected tolerance zone rather than oversize the hole per B5.

Feel free to plagerize, maybe post it back here for others.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

I feel that these tolerance calculations are so simple that a spreasheet only "muddies the waters."  Pencil and paper are the only way to completely document the calculation so that all the terms can be defined relative to the parts involved and that anyone with enough knowledge can follow the calculation and learn the problem immediately.

 

Tunalover

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
tunalover, the spreadsheet just uses the calculations from the standard.  If you think they are too simple then I suggest you contact the ASME 14.5 committee to ask for a change at the next revision.

Much of the time pencil & paper or maybe just mental arithmetic will be more than adequate.  I have a learning disability which makes mental arithmetic a bit more challenging for me so on a bad day this spreadsheet (not fully populated) helps me out.  Also sometimes I'm required to present my calculations in which case again this printout attached to the relevant drawing can be of use.

This spreadsheet was also developed to try and assist interns with Tolerancing.

It's not the be all and end all but just something I believe is useful in some situations.
 

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Pencil and paper, how quaint.  Do you scan it to save with all the other design data?

I don't do anything on paper anymore.  If it is not saved in the project files it doesn't exist.

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

dgallup-
Either the hole pattern is designed to fit or not is clear from the drawing and the calculation does not need saving once the drawing is released.  It sounds like you spend a lot of time with excessive documenting when designing is time better spent.

Tunalover

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Tunalover-

You don't document the calculations you use in your designs?

Scary.

V

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
tunalover, whether the hole pattern is designed to fit is not usually clear from one drawing, you have to look at both mating parts and do some simple math.  Something most people around here are incapable of.

Anyway, if you don't like it don't use it, it you have any ideas for improving it's usefulness I'm open to suggestions.  However, decrying it as useless, when I've already had people here use it and find it beneficial, doesn't do much for me.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

KENAT,

In the section where you have the X Tolerance Range, Y Tolerance Range and the Equivalent Positional Diameter, I noticed your equation doesn't multiply by 2.  In a book I have, it says to multiply by 2 to get the Equivalent Positional Diameter...

When I follow the equation in the book, I get exactly double what your spreadsheet gives me.

Books equation is SQRT(X^2 + Y^2)X2

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
I use the term 'tolerance range' meaning the value from max to min not the deviation from the 'nominal'.

So if the tolerance is +-.005, then tolerance range is .010.

See example 3 on the updated 4 September version.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

Ah, right, the book doesn't use the full range, just half. Thanks, the spreadsheet will come in handy.

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

tunalover,

I agree that hand calculations are necessary to any responsible engineering decision...but, I suck at penmanship...I do my hand calculations in excel.

In looking at Kenat's spreadsheet...I think it is a good double-check instrument...but to rely on it?...I see that as turning engineers who should be "chef's"...into short order cooks.

I think Kenat's spreadsheet is missing a few assumptions which should be documented to be complete...I can't speak for Kenat, but I bet he has those in his own project notes..and I bet he could explain them if challenged...I'll bet you a nickel he doesn't just hand off the sheet and run...and I'd bet you another nickel he has not included them in the spreadsheet so the spreadsheet could be readable.

The biggest problem I see...is in Kenat's later thought that many engineers do not understand how to use the mathematics to describe the system...and without such spreadsheets...are they seem very willing to guess.

I'm usually given only a stack of drawing to checks. So, I see Kenat's sheet as an improvement...Even if we assume no improvement to drawing quality...I think I would still be able to easier see where an engineer made an error...and save me time.

My thought is that a few simple notes on another worksheet in the same workbook could accompany Kenat's sheet.

That would be a drawing checker's utopia.

Didn't we learn in school..."Show your work?"

Michael
GDTP-S0470
"Drawing checker who ain't ever seen Utopia"
 

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
Michael854 please feel free to make any suggestions of what assumptions etc you believe should be noted.  The spreadsheet is intended to be used in companion with ASME Y14.5M-1994 Appendix B, not completely by itself.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

(OP)
No, go ahead.

Be aware there is a glitch in the conditional formatting, at least on the version I released at work.  One of the cells (can't remember which) indicated interferance if the result is actually a line fit.  I couldn't work out what was going on.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies recently, or taken a look at posting policies: http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?
What is Engineering anyway: FAQ1088-1484: In layman terms, what is "engineering"?

RE: Appendix B4 ASME Y14.5M-1994 Fixed Fastener Positional Tolerance Calc.

I'll be tacking this on to the first sheet:

"Warning: The information and formulae within the spreadsheet are based on tertiary sources, original research, particular assumptions and calculations.  Some information or results may be incorrect.  This spreadsheet, its information, and its calculations should only be used as a general reference.  Always verify results. Use at your own risk!"

Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group

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