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Fuel going thru Air Eliminators
2

Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
Fuel leaking thru Air Eliminators at tank farm dispenser bldgs.
In several of our installations we have had problems with fuel leaking thru air eliminators. These are small scale dispensing facilities for diesel. We do not have this propblem in every facility, nor can we figure out why it occurs in some and not in others. We have Neptune compact meters with air eliminators located in the piping. We have looked at the PRVs in bypasses around all the valves on the lines and checked them for direction of flow and setting. Even when these are all OK we are still having troubles in one location with fuel blowing thru. Any thoughts?
thanks.

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Can they be removed and replaced by manually operated vents and backpressure regulators downstream of the meters?

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, its what we know for sure" - Mark Twain

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Do we presume you have examined the seals and vents for damage or wear, faulty components?
Are the operating conditions any different for this meter compared to the others?
Is the fuel more heavily air entrained than the others?
Is the float valve damaged in any way? The Neptune floats are supposed to be crush proof (they are foam filled) but is the pivot seized or is oit sticking in any way?

If the throughput is higher for this meter than the others then perhaps a different air release is necessary. The Neptune distributor in France produced their own high capacity air release units which may be more appropriate.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
Thanks for the suggestions. In a pinch I guess we could use manual vents and the backpressure regulators..but it is puzzling because these eliminators are part of our standard tank farm design and in most cases they work ..

We have indeed examined the components for wear (Note some cases these are new installations, entirely new tank farms..). Only the ball floats are damaged. The round floats from eliminator have been found squashed like a balloon folded over on itself..
We do not have huge volumes of fuel going thru-these are for small northern communities, mostly a few vehicle per day fueling up, snowmobiles, and of of course the local fuel truck..

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

I only suggested that because we used the backpressure regulators and didn't use air eliminators at all.

Did you discuss that problem with the manufacturer?
 

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, its what we know for sure" - Mark Twain

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
Oh you don't use the air eliminators at all? Hmm maybe we should consider altering our design. I'm trying to contact manufacturer. Have not had any luck yet.

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Do you have air in the meter stream?
IMO its much better to eliminate the source.
What's the source?
 

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, its what we know for sure" - Mark Twain

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

I'm with Biginch here. The usual need for air eliminators is where the fuel is being offloaded from tankers and can have become aerated during transit or when the tanks are pumped dry.
If the fuel is sourced from static storage tanks where is the air coming from?
That you have several squashed floats suggests these are not the foam filled floats and also that the pipeline pressure may be excessive, crush proof floats or not.
Do your pumps have pressure relief bypass? what happens when you finish delivering fuel? is the pump linked to the shut off valve or does it continue to run? I suggest either using automatic pump stop or checking the pump relief valve settings.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
WE have PRVs on the pumps and valves. Pump is linked to shut-off valve, so it does not run when not needed. Our fuel is delivered by barge or tanker to the fuel facility, stored in tanks, then dispensed (via Neptume meter) to vehicles..
These are definitely not foam-filled floats.I have one on my desk and it is half-filled with fuel.

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

I have looked to see who the French company is or was that were the Neptune distributors and who made their own eliminators but without success. They don't give distributor information on their website so I guess you need to call them and ask about it.... Neptune is now Actaris, formerly they were part of Schlumberger.

I know they did a crush proof float, whether this is a special option or a discontinued option I don't know.

Are these meters with mechanical registers? If so then it is worth checking that the pump shut off switch is properly adjusted, it should stop the pump before the valve completes its closure.
If electronic there ought to be some means to trip the pump moments before the valve closes.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
Meter are Neptune (Actaris) mechanical Compact Type 4,c/w strainer and air eliminator.I better check about opump conrol.  I am not entirely sure why we have teh air probleam at all. maybe we could just use air manual air vents

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Work in several large tankfarms with varying loading equipment.  Only instance where we use air eliminators is for truck off loading for biodiesel or ethanol -- maximize offload from the truck (as pump is designed to run as such) and avoid surge issues on next pump start ups.  We use Brodie equipment.

Delivery side (truck, barge and pipeline) outbounds have no eliminators.  Loading basics are pump, strainer, meter, control valve.  Plant operations dictate not to strip (run tank below regular suction) to loading rack.  This is both for the sake of the pump (NPSHr, flush plans not designed for it, etc), air introduction into the system (measurement nightmare) and product quality (liver bottoms, water, etc.).  Our pumps will push against closed valves for up to 90 seconds during operation.

Base question is where in your system, assuming is closed loop from AST/UST to loading point, are you introducing air?

As far as liquids passing through the eliminator to vent, what is the vent stack tied to?  Could backpressure from the stack be holding the float out?  Have also seen in steam traps where the hinge on the ball float (not sure if your equipment has this type) has softgoods in the hinge which swelled do to vapors and temperature and locked the float in single position.

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

You could try talking to the coriolis meter guys. They are desperately trying to solve the problem of entrained air and the results are pretty encouraging. You will be especially OK if air is only an intermittent transient condition as the smart electronics can detect the air and make some form of compensation.
The only results I have seen so far are for around 3% with full cappuccino effect (bubbles fully dispersed in the fuel possibly 5-10%) and pockets of air.

ALternatively, if your meters are not being damaged and you actually want mass use pulse output into a flow computer with a density input and use an EGA density meter. These will give 1% accuracy on density upto 100% air; (volume of liquid plus air)x(density of liquid plus air) = (mass of liquid plus air) and since the mass of the air is negligeable the mass is the mass of the liquid.

Now, as these are Neptunre meters, if they are not being damaged then you do not have too serious a problem (piston meters are usually more vulnerable to air due to shock loading when you get an air pocket followed by fuel.
SLiding vane meters are not too expensive but I am advised they are as vulnerable as piston meters. Best choice for entrained air and pockets of air is probably the PetrolInstrments bi-rotor meter which is fiscal standard but as a twin case meter a bit more expensive to buy but probably will give you a much higher on-stream factor due to its rugged design and geometry of the rotors which are well able to resist shock loading.

PS If you want an discussion doc on this, visit www.viscoanalyser.com and email asking for information.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
Thanks for all the suggestions. As far as we can tell the meters are not being damaged but the air eliminators are being broken (floats are deformed).

We barge or truck fuel to the tank farms. Sometimes we have to switch around fuel between tanks (say LSDL from one LSDL tank to another) to allow maintenace, etc, but generally once we refuel (which is only a few times per year, or only once in some communities) the fuel stays put.... Occasionally we will use one tank farm or tank as "staging" of fuel intended to go on to another area or tank at some later date..

The tank farms then dispense fuel to private vehicles and to the community fuel truck (heating fuel). (Some facilities also have  Jet A-1 fuel.)  Our inital fuel fillup of tanks may introduce air but that should sort out in a relatively short while, should it not? is it possible that the routine fuel dispensing is introducing air? We have nozzles for vehicle dispensing and kamlock fittings for fuel truck fill...  

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

It could be a very high possibility that air is being introduced during transfer.  Are you using bottom loading or top loading methods?

If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use? Two strong oxen or 1024 chickens?" - Seymour Cray (1925-1996), father of supercomputing
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
Transfer to tanks? we pump in fuel thru pipeline and in thru tank valve.
 Whe we load trucks from the tanks we had been using bottom loading but are now going to top loading.

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
When we load from tankers I am pretty sure we use bottom loading but will check

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

I'd suspect that the problem occurs at some point during the loading of road tankers or the unloading of them.

It might be worthwhile to check the operating procedures laid down and witness a couple of operations.

How are the connections made? Do the lines have self sealing (Hansen style) couplings or drain down flexible hoses?
What happens when he tanker runs dry during unloading or when filling a tanker is complete?
If it is usual to blow air through the lines to clear them, is this air also going through the meters and air release heads?

If I had to guess the problem occurs either when blowing down lines with air or when starting up with empty lines such that the air valve is full open and then slams shut when fuel enters the chamber at full pump rate.

The air releases are normally intended to vent small amounts of air dispersed as bubbles in the flow and hence the air release also often is combined with a filter where the filter element helps separate the air from the fuel.

Big pockets of air or air blowing may be outside of the design capability of these release units.

PS any problems with strainer screens?  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

(OP)
Thanks !

I had better investigate further. We are not usually there during loading and unloading but I should be able to find out.

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Dear Caluna hello,
If this is a long Pipeline having many higher elevation and lower elevation segments without proper design to arrest air pocketting,then there may be such occassional problems.
Such problems do get aggravated if some portion(s)of pipeline are bare aboveground exposed to solar radiant heat input,whereas part is underground.
Problem might be addressed upto a great extent through provision of TRV(thermal relief valve) upstream of air eliminator.

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

786392 There should be no air in the pipeline.  Theses are refined products.  Where is the air supposed to be coming from?  Presumedly, a thermal relief valve would only open if its temperature set point were exceeded, thus any air passing by at lower temperatures would not exit through a thermal relief valve.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Dear BigInch,
I do have highest degree of respects for your good self& an admirer, as I have been going through your posts in the past, made me learn a lot.
However here I will like to differ that if the system is completely "Closed" without any possibilities (normally) for air entry, then why the air eliminators provision existed?
Not clear to me. Please elaborate.
Moreover in case of long pipeline systems (if not properly designed and/or subsequently modified without adequate hazops) such problems may be faced and get aggravated as referred in my previous post.
We faced a similar problem on re-locating the Jet fuel Filter/Water separator and modifying the pipeline leading to this equipment; may had been an outcome of our poor designing/lay-out work.
 

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

OK.  Any significant amount of air like that shouldn't be there and would indicate other things need to be fixed before messing with the air valves.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Dear caluna,
I would suggest you to further explore on JMW's post, with specific reference that; if there is Batch/ parcel pigging taking place?
Normally for multi product pipeline's economical usage separator pigs are employed in many situations.
If so, then subject to the system involved at Pig Launcher/ Retriever air introduction possibility into the pipeline system can not be ruled-out especially if pigging was not initially practiced and to minimize contamination/ downgrading recently employed.
Please appreciate we have to look for a 'change' for problem identification/resolution.
Please review/confirm.
 

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Caluna here, my login as myself not working..
Thank you very much for all this.

Some info meantime while I get more on the loading ..
- No separator pigs are used- each pipeline is only used for one product.
-No special strainer problems noted.
-Pipeline lengths-in the installations in which we have been seeing problems, no length is longer than several hundred metres-some are shorter.
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators


Caluna/Daianto,
Then you have to check intermittent loading/ Decanting of Tank truck, Bowsers& small barges utilizing flexible or removable systems as this may be the possible source.
•    Otherwise problem of sucking-in air into your pumps suction pipelines either through vortex formation in storage tanks or
•    Reduced NPSHa against NPSHr
o    while pumps are tried for full throughput;
o    as sometimes suction bucket strainers get some obstructing foreign materials bulky enough to reduce NPSHa
o    thus inducing some air via suction pipeline gate valve seals/glands
•    Beyond the handling capability of air eliminators designed for.
•    Another possibility if Flow rate is somewhat reduced is screen out suction pipeline block valves open-ness
Hope this helps
 

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

I should add that if there is damage being done to the air eliminators then the meters themselves may also be suffering.

The next questions to ask are:
  • how old is the installation?
  • Is the problem recent or has it been inherently a problem since the begining?
  • If the latter, what changed and when?
  • What does the meter history tell you? - how often are the meters calibration checked, serviced or repaired? what parts need replacing, is there a change in the pattern? do rotors need replacing more often or about the same?
  • Is the current installation as per the drawings? (not all changes are necessarily well documented)
  • Perhaps most obviously, take a look at the pump history also. It might be that the pumps were uprated at some point simply to improve turnaround times, this is worth investigating, especially in older systems.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Pigging, shouldn't be the cause.  If done properly, no air is introduced into the lines.  Pig launchers should have small diameter fill line and vent lines to load the pig, fill with product and vent any air in the barrel before launching.  The high available pressures for loading should be enough to force almost all of any remaining air out, as well as the barrels should have an angle forcing air towards the vent.  No more than a couple of cubic feet of air at most should ever remain inside, even if done with the worst of operator skills.  Not very likely IMO.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
***************
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

By the way, when doing your witnessed loading, you might try using your ears as well as your eyes.

I went once with a flow meter engineer and he had a large old style screwdriver with a bulbous wooden handle that he used like a stethoscope to listen to what was happening in the flowmeter and fittings under normal conditions and as valves were opening and closing.... if you could get an explosion-proof microphone it would be nice to hear a recording.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Caluna, did you find the problem?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Sorry I have been away for 2 months. We are finding some interesting things- some pRvs were installed backwards, and relief valve settings were wrong.Some equipment only rated to minus 20 and we have design temps of 1% minus 45 or worse.Still investigating and talking with meter mfgr.
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Caluna, your question seems all to familiar to one I am presently working on.  Whwen I saw you were in NWT for the GNWT I was not suprpised at the nature of the question.  I am working for the GNWT as an outside consultant and am working on this very issue.  Gameti just had a ball float crush as you described.  Where elsewould you be referring to the probelm?  I am talking to the supplier ( whom you likley know as wel) as well as Actaris Neptune in US ( now Itron)  

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Hi Ken!

Yes Gameti is it! I started this thread before all our investogatins really started happening.

 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

OK all.  I am working along with Diaanto/Caluna on this same probelm up north.  The latest si another Actaris air eliminator ball float has been found collpased at the same facility as twice before.  It may be way out there, but does anyone think this may be attributable in any way to a sudden and raid cointraction of the warm air in the sealed hoolow stainless steel ball resulting in a poartial vacuum. The balls are installed from a box taken from a warm building then subject to -40deg C diesel liquid.  This may be a bigger pressure than we think if the ball is already submergred in 30 feet of diesel ( only about 8 psig though.  I am thinking about the Magdeburg Hemisphere experiments where two hemispheres took an extreme force to be pulled apart when in an internal vacuum.  With a 5 inch dia ball and a pressure differential of say 15 psi ( 14.7 psia atm + 10 psi from liquid - 10 psia in ball)acting on the crossection the force could be as high as 300 lbs or more. Any comments?   

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Crushing by pressure alone doesn't sound likely.  Crushing a sphere via hydrostatic pressure isn't easy.  A 5" diameter sphere made of 5 mill thick steel could be in 100 ft of diesel (w/ vacuum inside it) and still have a safety factor of 4.

Maybe its possible that rapid uneven cooling had something to do with it.  I think it would tend to create shrinking of the outside surface while the inside surface tended to retain its warmer dimension, possibly increasing compression stress on the inside wall.  Once losing its spherical shape, it could crush at a much lessened pressure, although 30 ft of diesel wouldn't seem like it could do it.  How thin is the wall?

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Not at line pressure, but if there is a fast closing batch valve might the hammer effects push the peak pressure up enough?
Are the pumps properly synchronised with the shut off valve?
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Also not likely to be that high.  50% increases in pressure are a typ max.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

THank you biginch and JMW for feedback.  Now my theory of inernal partial vacuum resulting from rapid cooling of a room temperature ball from the box imeediately put into service in -40 deg liquid diesel is valid from a perspective of physics I think.  HOwever it is a very long shot and not likley the cause, or perhaps only partly the cause.  The stop/preset auto valve is just downstream of the air eliminator ( with ball) and meter.  THis is the next piece of equipment I am going to check as it may slam closed thus the hammer we speak of.  I appreciate your comments on the pressure you observed with a gauge.  In ordet to properly identify this elusive probelm at the Gameti facility ( 350km north of Yellowknife, canada) we may need to intall test nipple and guage directly onto the drain plug fitting on the air eliminator, to observe what happens at start up of the pump.  This pump cannot put out pressure emore than about 25 psig., even when deadheaded.   

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Kenneth,

A 50% increase in hammer pressure is typical for a filled system (no air) and a fast valve closure.  It could be higher, if a high velocity liquid slugged into an air filled pipe.   

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Thanks biginch- The pump can only put out 25 psi total head when blocked in so I dont think the system mpressure is anywhere near the 150 psig the meter asembly, including the ait eliminator is rated for.  Still at a los to explain.  Will probably have to go back, install new ball and put a pressure gauge directly on the air eliminator drain plug to monitor any spikes in pressure at start up.

Ken

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

I do hope you can manage to contact Neptune, or whoever they are today.
The fact is they have experienced crushed floats previously and they did develop and produce a "crush-proof" foam filled float.
This suggests the problem has a relatively common cause (and possibly related to hammer or large amounts of entrained air - liquid following through after air can have a significant shock effect and is one of the major causes of damage to PD meters) and one that required a product design solution rather than an operational solution, at least, in many cases.

The point being that many installations and operations are not ideal but are reasonable and that if normal conditions creates situations where the standard float is vulnerable then the crush-proof float is a solution i.e. survivability was considered more practicable than remedial action to prevent what is probably an occasional transient condition (the floats don't crush on a daily basis).

However, from your investigations so far, there is a possibility that the cause is not an acceptable transient condition; you have reported that some PRVs were installed wrongly and this may indicate other problems that can and should be remedied.

I would hope that Neptune can give some greater insights based on their experience. Or, you could try one of the other manufacturers for their experience (they'd love the opportunity to be able to supply alternative equipment if they can show it is an equipment design fault and they'd need to be sure their own equipment doesn't suffer a similar fate). You might try some of the other manufacturers for their advice e.g. such as Liquid Controls, Smiths etc.

 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Thank you so much JMW for this. We are looking into the solid composite balls however it seems to be a quick fix not addressing the root cause.  We are all at a loss to understand where such a large liquid hammer effect could be coming from.  Possible the slamming of the preset auto stop valve bolted to the meter itself just downstream of the air eliminator ( with the ball inside ).  If a pressure spike as large as 500 psig was occurring I would venture to say that more than just a ball float would be failing as these devices ( Actaris type 4 MT petroleum meter 2 inch) would show other signs of failures at these pressures.  Not so -we have not seen anything other than clearly imploded/folded floats.  Actaris/Neptune ( now Itron out of Greenwood South carolina 1-800-833-3357_) are involved. THeye emaintain that these stainless steel ball floats are used in both LPG and pertoeluam fuel applicataions and are all tested to 500psig.  

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

It would be interesting to see if a fast application of -40 temp on one side and a relatively warm temp on the other side would fold it in.

I've always been told that you have to maintain a backpressure on meters, holding them full of liquid when they are shut down, so you don't get the slugging into air filled lines and impacts on the turbines when you restart flow.  If they were down for servicing, and drained, we fill them manually, venting all air out before restarting flow.  As I have always designed, operated and worked with metering systems that did have about a 25 psig minimum backpressure held against them, I can't really say if not having that backpressure could be responsible.   

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

kenneth2,
what do they say about the foam filled float?

Incidentally, I see something new to me on their website which is a differential valve installed downstream of the meter and connected to the air release;
http://www.neptuneflowmeter.com/literature/M-663(B).pdf

This is for use where there is more air than the air release can handle and which would therefore flow through the meter if flow were to continue.
I'm just trying to figure out if, where there is a situation of crushing floats, this would help or amplify the problem.

In the O&M Manual I find this:
[quote[Air Release Valve Troubles
Troubles with this unit may arise from:
a) Collapsed ball float allowing vent to remain open.[/quote]

http://www.neptuneflowmeter.com/literature/M-203(A).pdf

In other words, this happens and hopefully they should be able to diagnose the common causes.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Thank you JMW.. I have seen the literature you have mentioned and have read about this differential device.  What I am proposing to the GNWT is that I attend the site wih the operations supervisor  and do a thorough system check.. In ther words, we would install a pressure gauge on the drain plug port on the type 4 Mt petroleum meter.  We would re-establish the vent ( it was plugged on Dec 19/08 after these ball failures were allowing fuel to spill everywhere in the building  thru the vent)  and start the pump.  I would use a stethiscsope to listen while we start up, then watch the gauge and flow thru the vent while we load  a bulk truck at 130 LPM.  If this is  a hammer situatiion I strongly suspect one could hear this immediately on start up, which wopuld be oserved as well as  a large pressure spike on the gauge ( > 500psig) WE will then  observe if fuel flows up vent, and shut down, take apart and inspect the ball.  The solid composite balls are available according to  Acatris in Greenwood but were mainly designed and used in Europe.  The supplier Accuflo of these meters had not even heard of the composite solid flaots.  Anyways we plod on.

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

Nice suggestion, should provide way forward,
sorry for late comments

Best Regards
Qalander(Chem)

RE: Fuel going thru Air Eliminators

THank you all for the comments.  I will keep posting what happens.   

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