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I Hate Drawings!!!
12

I Hate Drawings!!!

I Hate Drawings!!!

(OP)
I need to rant.  Why do we have drawings in the 3-D world?  I am so tired of arguing about the line thickness/ the font size/ the angle of the leader line or all of the other BS that goes along with creating drawings.  Then you issue a fabrication to someone and they inevitably call me back asking how does this thing go together.  Then I send a packaged assembly to them and there is no more questions.  All they needed in the first place was the model with the associated material.  Weld callouts can be called out as annotations, for that matter they should just be physically modeled.  And when it comes to assembly, the model is the easiest way to show how things come together.  Today you can even create video clips that can be animated with notes to show how things come together.  I worked for a company once where I heard that an entire division was designed paperless.  In order to do this they made all of their suppliers run the same CAD package.  This allowed them to created annotations in the models along with associated views to make the parts.  Do places like this really exist?  If so dose anyone else see this becoming this way in the future.  Dose anyone else agree with me that drawings are a waste of time?  Does anyone think that their mechanical task is better served in a two dimensional world?  Am I doomed to suffer in a world of arbitrary existence??

One extremely frustrated engineer that is probably looking for a new career!!!


SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

2
Maybe your drawings lack content and/or clarity.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

It's taken ~20yrs for 2D CAD to displace drafting boards (not 100%).  It's taken ~10yrs for 3D CAD to displace 2D CAD (not 100%).  I think it will take longer than ~15yrs for 3D models to displace 2D drawings (not 100%).

It always comes back to QA/QC, "What do I inspect to?"

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the be

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

2
Yes, places like that DO exist, but are few.  Most still augment the models with paper for one reason or another.  Check out ASME Y14.41-2003.

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

2
Sorry, but my machinist doesn't have a CAD station beside the lathe, and my welders don't have a CAD station next to their welders.  They need drawings, thanks.  On paper.  Preferably with dimensions.  Hopefully with some tolerance information too.

Depending on the modelling software, cranking a few dimensioned views isn't all that tough.

What it sounds like you're dealing with is someone trying to enforce drafting standards on you, the engineer, rather than help you by doing the drafting for you once the design work is done.  I hear you on that one.  Learn to separate the valuable stuff in that criticism (ie. how to dimension so the person building the thing won't have to get out a calculator), from the nit-picky appearance- or preference-related stuff.  Not to disrespect the skill that a real, trained draftsman has in creating a drawing that is accurate, legible and understandable at a glance- that's a dying art.   

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

2
This has been discussed at length before.

There is still a place for drawings, although some places are strongly 3D/MBD/14.41 etc.  Even a lot of these though still have partial drawings or issues they haven't fully resolved.

For places that can't force suppliers to have a suitably compatible 3D Cad system/format they're still pretty much needed.

There's also configuration control issues that are slightly different from the 2D world with associated IT issues.

Most of the petty format issues can be established once and enforced by the CAD system settings at a firm, though there's always some room for debate if you really want to.

One of the issues I have with MBD is that for the most part when you come to use it you have to do some level of interrogation of the model, (be it panning, zooming in, opening prepared 'views', going into sketches, selecting a part to find its PN... and this all assumes you're in native or annotated generic format) on a good drawing it's all just laid out for you.  Sure you can throw the model straight into the CMM program but what about worrying about tolerances etc.

On assy models, a lot of things (like adhesives, paint, individual wires etc.) get left out for good reason and only annotated on the drawing (or some variation there on).  Many of these it is possible to include in the model somehow but in most cases you still have the interogation issue.

MadMango makes a real good point about inspection.

The drawing is prepared based on function first, support to inpsection second (though this should closely match function most of the time) and for ease of manufacture an important third.  (That'll probably upset someone but so be it.)

Also a lot of what you see as "other BS" is to do with clarity and avoiding ambiguity.  After all a drawing is a legal document if push comes to shove, it defines what you'll accept.

I find a lot of the most vocal people about this kind of thing at my place are the ones who can't/wont do it right/well and don't understand the whole concept of product documentation (be it MBD or drawings) properly.  There have been several rants lately about lack of good drawings etc so I suspect I'm not the only one that feels this way.

You could always go into an area of Engineering where you don't do your own drawings, I've heard they still exist.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

"What it sounds like you're dealing with is someone trying to enforce drafting standards on you, the engineer, rather than help you by doing the drafting for you once the design work is done."

Hmm, am I an idiot engineer for sucking it up and learning how to do it relatively properly rather than waiting for someone else to do it for me?  I know there are plenty who don't see drafting as integral to engineering so maybe I am the dumb a$$.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Nope KENAT- you're one of the good ones who learned it right!

I just didn't go to school as an engineer to spend substantial fractions of my time as a draftsman.  I believe in the division of labour.  I'll get coffee for customers, or sweep the floor when it's dirty, or get out the tools and tear something down when it isn't working, but you won't catch me spending hours neatening up drawings, or re-formatting Word documents etc.  Everybody's got to draw their own line in the sand SOMEWHERE!

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Most of our work is for the automotive industry, tooling and special purpose machinery and the paperless work place has been around for a good few years now, or if not totally paperless very minimal.

Of our current customer base I would say about 65% work paperless and that is growing all the time, those that do not take it on board fall by the wayside as simple as that.

Much of this is driven by the complexity of the modelling, you simple could not dimension many parts even if you wanted to, there is a great debate on the drawings standards site about how you dimension five holes, how on earth do you dimension something like a bonnet inner with over 25,000 surfaces on it? Why would you even bother to try when you can machine and inspect directly to a model?

This does not however take away things being done "right" line weights and arrowheads are replaced by the accuracy and controls on the model.

Hardly any companies that work in our sector are growing that still work predominantly with drawings and many have gone bust, once someone in the industry starts doing it and getting it right (which does take time and effort) they are at a huge advantage, I see this spilling over into other sectors sooner rather than later.
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I had a whole counter rant written up, but figured it wasn't worth it, and it'd probably get red-flagged anyway, so I'll just say this.

If you don't like to draft parts, you can go into the automotive industry. A lot of those companies use very little paper, simply because of the complexity of the parts.

V

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I just figure(d) if part of my job description is doing drafting I either learn to do it properly or find another position.

I get tired of people just complaining about it and doing a half a$$ed job of it.

MBD has advantages but as ajack points out

"This does not however take away things being done "right" line weights and arrowheads are replaced by the accuracy and controls on the model."

my perception is that the people that are lazy/poor at 2D will often/usually be poor at this in 3D.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

... or aerospace.
MBD is coming along.  With the right software and hardware, you can design, check, release, machine and inspect off the the same model.  The only annotation really needed in the model has to do with toleranceing, and that can be imbedded into the model to be passed on in downstream applications.
The biggest obstacle to all of this is of course $$$.  That was also the biggest obstacle to CAD just a few years back.

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

2
Like ajack1 said, even if you get into a paperless environment that doesn't mean that it is going to get easier or simpler to correctly document a part. It just means that you as the engineer need to spend more time building intelligence into the model and providing the extra tolerancing and dimensional information to the model that would normally be included in the print.

Line weights, font size, et al, are just ways of communicating effectively. My advice would be to learn to do it right or hire a trained draftsman to do the work for you. Would you give instructions in Japanese to a French speaking individual and expect them to understand all of the nuances of what you are saying. No, you would either find someone to translate or you would learn to speak their language. The same goes for engineering documentation, it is a language and you either need to learn to speak it properly or find someone that is willing to "translate" what you have into something intelligible. (shameless plug for all us draftsmen out there.)   

David

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I figured engineers would take pride in their drawings. I find, however, that some not only don't like to do drafting, but are terrible at it. Maybe that's why they don't like it? thumbsdown

V

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Well put, David.

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I figure who better to make the drawings then the engineer that designed it.  They know which dimensions are critical and which can slide a little, not just from an individual part standpoint but for assembly as well.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Bester2,

You may be from one of those few branches where your cad drawings can be manufactured straight from the cad file, but for most of us we are dictated by the lowest common denominator - the tradesman that has to interpret our drawings and build it.

It is also easy for us engineers to forget that we had to learn how to read drawings and that there are many people out there who do not understand 2D drawings let alone 3D. I have had this problem with intelligent people too such as lawyers.

I do feel your pain though, I do know from experience that some 3D things are very hard to represent in 2D.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Hendersdc,

I would agree IF the engineer that designed the part/assembly knew how to communicate that information. Don't get me wrong, I know many engineers that are great at putting their intentions on paper/into the model, but I also know/work with many that couldn't accurately detail a piece of 1/4dia. bar-stock.

David

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Hendersdc

Written from the perspective of a previous job, not my current one.

Well, to be honest my draftie knew a hell of a lot of stuff that I don't, and vice versa. So while I was happy to noodle away at the solid model until it (a) packaged (b) was strong enough and light enough and (c) looked right, there was still an awful lot left to do to the model before a machine shop could pick it up and use it. That's where the draftie came in, so I would throw my model over the wall and he turned it into a productionisable part that didn't kill the machinist.

I agree it might be slightly more efficient overall in man hours if I had done the whole thing, but my chargeout rate was > $150 ph, his was 70.
 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I see your point, and rant if you need to.
Some of us do work with 2D drawings for a reason. And if a reasonable substitute for paper were available we would use it.

At some point we must explain our drawings to someone.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Greg as usual has nailed this one.  He too believes in the division of labour.  No point in me trying to neaten up a drawing:  someone who is trained to, and cares to, do the drafting RIGHT will produce a superior result for 1/2 the time and 1/4 the money than if I did it.

By the way, if it's simple and needs no modelling, a pencil sketch gets the point across right quickly.  Lazy and unprofessional?  Hardly.  I'd call it being results-oriented.
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

(OP)
Well, I thank everyone for the comments.  Let me start to clarify things a little.  I started out in a company that did have an automotive division, that was the division that was rumored to be paperless.  I worked on the production side of the house and had to read and interpolate drawings on a daily basis.  I am very aware of problems that can effect form, fit, and function. Those issues need to be addresses thoroughly in the checking process.  This is not a form, fit, or function problem this is more "balloon 2's parallel leader should be the same length as balloon 1's parallel leader with the bend lines matching at a vertical point." Or the example that led me to rant was "dimension x should be 44" not 3' 8" and dimension 4' 8" should be 56". The current problem that I am running into is ambiguous checking.  For the dimension example it is totally arbitrary weather we should use inches or ft-inches.  No rule like under 3 feet use inches and over 3 ft use ft-inches.   Currently my company does not enforce any particular CAD standard.  They state that we are to follow some standard but if you do follow that standard the chances of the drawing being approved are slim to none.  I am a relative new engineer (3 years) but have a very seasoned draftsman that I work with (has over 25 years of experience).  He is also very frustrated with the policies.   The rant did make me feel better and that was the purpose.  Like I stated in my first post I am probably in the wrong profession.  I am still a military man at heart and this lack of standards that I can adhere to is driving me made, which is a short drive in a fast car.


SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Creating good drawings without a specific standard to follow would make anyone rant.hairpull3
"This is the third Tuesday in the month. Yoe can't show it that way, it must be this way."

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I pretty much live in a 2-D world.  HOWEVER - we get drawings from Architects/Engineers with virtually NO dimensions - just use the scale they say.

Right - after it has been PDF-ed and copied and then faxed - good LUCK!!

The drawing is now worthless.

On top of that - sometimes they send me a disk with maybe a thousand drawings (large building) and all of the files have names that are worthless - like 1 or 2 or 3.

It takes a day or two to find the three of four drawings I need.  BACK TO PAPER!!
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Ooh, worthless file names...

We have an online file system for plans.  Unfortunately, the people who develop it think of it merely as an archive, not something anyone would actually want to go into and find something in.

So those of us who actually USE the system have to put up with files in alphabetical month order (yup, all the Aprils first, ending with all the Septembers), and then within them are plan sets with thousands of pages.  Sometimes someone did their job and every page shows which structure it is within the project, and what kind of bit o' structure it is (say, abutments, bents, prestressed girders, plate girders)--and sometimes there are hundreds of pages labeled "bridge plans".  Nice.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but not sorry enough to refrain from proposing this...

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I personally prefer MBD style designs.  After using many Cad packages, I have found that in some cases things can be "faked in" on the drawing.  I hate when people do this.  It can foster errors on the drawing and will not update if a primary design change is made.  When I have used MBD in the past, there was usually a company standard that governed different types of MBD parts.  Anything that was different than the standard (tolerances, surface roughness, etc) was called out in a annotation view along with datums and other pertinant information.  IMO MBD cuts down on the number of possible errors by cutting out the drafting process entirely.  The only drawback as mentioned above by other posters is the cost.  The software required to view and read MBD models can be expensive and alot of small shops simply cannot afford it.   

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

A couple of jobs ago, I got an RFQ for an MBD part.  It was a boomerang- shaped thin wall stainless steel air duct of non- constant cross section, maybe half a meter long.  The tolerance was stated in a cover letter as "Within 2mm of True Position in any direction" or something like that.  I could figure out a couple of ways to make the part, but I couldn't figure out how to inspect it.



 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Use a CMM and the model as master.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

That still doesn't explain where to align the part.  To which datums?

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Yep, it needs to be positional relative to something.  Seems like profile would be a better control though.
But we're getting off topic here...

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

"I personally prefer MBD style designs.  After using many Cad packages, I have found that in some cases things can be "faked in" on the drawing."

I have had a lot of parts that I could describe, and show any particular view you wanted of, just fine on a 2D CAD package.  The particular one I'm familiar with today, is a dovetail O-ring groove that forms the seal for a plug valve; its front view is a circle (to seal a circular cross passage).

Until the most recent revision a year ago, the 3D CAD package I use could not create the part.  I would have had to "fake in" most of the detail views.

molten: "By the way, if it's simple and needs no modelling, a pencil sketch gets the point across right quickly.  Lazy and unprofessional?  Hardly.  I'd call it being results-oriented. "

Absolutely, but you'd better have the 2D skills to do it right, or the mechanic is gonna be confused as all get out.

Bester2, sometimes you are stuck with the librarian principle, your checker sounds like the librarian who always shushes you just so she can excersize her authority.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Quote:

"Within 2mm of True Position in any direction" or something like that.  I could figure out a couple of ways to make the part, but I couldn't figure out how to inspect it.

Simple.

Inspection Plan For
boomerang-shaped thin wall stainless steel air duct of non- constant cross section


"Here ya' go client, show me where it's wrong."

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I used to feel that way about a couple of checkers, but have come to appreciate what they ended up teaching me by their continued "shushing".  With other checkers, however, I'd end up making a deliberate mistake, just to ease their egos and get the drawings out.  Some of the wrist slapping is BS, but much of it is the process of drilling the right way to draft into your head.

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

(OP)
Btrueblood,

I never heard about the librarian before.  I like the analogy it seems to fit.  

MintJulep,

A star for you that was the perfect answer.


SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Bester2,

Quote:

I worked for a company once where I heard that an entire division was designed paperless.  In order to do this they made all of their suppliers run the same CAD package.

   This is really cool if you can get away with it.  GM and Boeing are big enough to impose this sort of thing on their vendors.  The rest of us are not.

   You need to communicate with vendors what you want, and what you are going to accept.  This requires accuracy, and clarity.  Whatever system you use will require some equivalent of grammar and syntax.  If it is not line thickness and arrow angles, it will be something else.  

   Also, your solution must work for your fabricator and inspector, even if they have crappy computers, and CAD software other than what you have.

   About thirty years ago, I worked as inspector for a car parts manufacturer.  I never saw a drawing.  We used inspection fixtures to check everything.  Everything was weirdly shaped, and manufactured in quantities of tens of thousands, so we had a problem and an opportunity.  A paperless operation is nothing new.

                      JHG

   

    

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

The structural steel fabrication "drawings" for the Experience Music Project in Seattle were never committed to paper as there was no meaningful plan view available, but I'll bet that all concerned were glad to get back to paper for the next project.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

If you hate 3D CAD for manufacturing, try dealing with all the ABS/Revit crap for architectural/MEP engineers.

cannonREVIT
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

desnov74,

   3D CAD can be made to work very well.  Is it the CAD, or is it the CAD operators?

                          JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

One thing I like about 2D drawings is that a 2D drawing forces one to define a frame of reference or common point of view for inspection, review, and discussion.  Whether 3D or 2D, a key step in documentation is to determine meaningful viewpoints to convey key design information.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Even converting a 2D into 3D if the person is not cognizant to all of the surrounding parts and design intent it's almost assured the original intent will be lost to future use.

Drawings will always have their place.  I'll agree complex surfaces ala automotive tooling is nigh impossible to detail so it's well worth it to call a blanket tolerancing and measure to the model.

For all the rest of us you still need to convey manufacturing info aside from dimensions. The dimensions need to be toleranced based on the design intent with accurate datums, etc.  If you're detailing with no thought to tolerancing you're going to get crap regardless.  I don't care what industry you work for.  Garbage in, garbage out.  I've only worked in industries so far where the engineer does the detailing and design, and I've seen some gem engineers who couldn't detail a simple block.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Depending on the software, all of that additional design info and intent that needs to be conveyed can be conveyed in the actual model.  All of it.
We will have drawings for quite awhile though, as many ancillary functions will be slow to adopt a "digital" mindset, and full integration is still quite expensive, but to deny the possibility is to stick your head in the sand.
 

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

"Depending on the software" and there in lies one of the major problems - at present.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I am with ewh on this one; the technology is there and has been in place for many years now.

As to how many companies take it on board, well I guess only time will tell. I am sure this debate has been discussed with regard to going from the drawing board to 2D CAD or from conventional machine to a CNC machine, how many companies are still in business with a draughtsman at a board and a machinist winding handles?

As with anything you need the other party to be able to "understand" what you are telling them, a phone or an email account are also useless if the person you are trying to contact does not have them or know how to use them, but I am sure most of us would be lost without them and would not use a company that did not have them.

In five or ten years time will saying sorry we need drawings be the same as saying sorry I don't have email can you post it to me please?
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ajack1,

   I do not see 2D drawings disappearing that fast.  For everyone to get onto 3D, we need the following...

  1. Everyone who requires the information has high speed computers with good video cards, capable of managing every bell and whistle that gets added to the 3D software. By everyone, I mean engineers, designers, drafters, technical writers, inspectors, fabricators, shipping clerks, etc.
  2. These machines are kept up to date, systematically.
  3. The aforesaid high-end CAD machines are portable to where people need to do design reviews, inspection, or whatever.  Any networking requirements are met somehow, without security problems.  We can drop these high end machines, and pour coffee and crankcase oil on them.  
  4. There is a standard 3D CAD format, supported by all CAD vendors, that provides full design capability.
  5. Blue highlighter capability, as well as redline capability.  This is the minimum required for design checking and inspection.  It is not obvious to me how you are going to do this in 3D.  I am not aware of any 2D programs that support highlighting.
  6. Probably, I have missed something.
   Mechanical 3D software runs at the limit of what most CAD stations are able to manage.  My experience is that mechanical CAD has always done this, and I do not think things will change in the near future.  When the machines get faster, everyone will use accurately modeled screws and springs, and we will systematically use photo-realistic surfaces.   

   You mention how email has taken over from snail mail.  There is not much downside to email.  It does not create anywhere near the logistical issue 3D CAD does.

                          JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

drawoh - you've covered many of the points I see as stumbling blocks for many places at the moment and for the foreseeable future.

We are starting to use the model as the primary part definition for some castings and moldings but, due to cad interoperability issues we still have a minimal 2D drawing with the notes and other pertinent information that can't be readily contained in the current dumb model formats that we & our vendors can work with.

It seems a lot of the 3D advocates/current users are sectors with companies that can effectively 'force' their supply train to use certain CAD formats, however for many small and medium players this isn't the case.

Once a true standard lightweight model format that can contain PMI is established a lot of these issues will be reduced but I'm not sure when that will be.  UGS had me convinced that JT might be the way forward at one point but now I'm not so sure.
 

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

drawoh,
I think you may be a little behind the times.

1.  Everyone who requires the information DOES NOT require high end computers capable of managing every bell and whistle that gets added to the 3D software.  All they need is a good connection with the company intranet and acess to a good PDM package.  They do not have to load the actual CAD model, only a light weight representation of it.

2.  Technology has less to do with this than company discipline, with which this should not present a great problem.

3. While still more expensive than the typical laptop, hardened laptops have been manufactured for field work for years now, and encrypted networks have also been around for awhile.

4.This is the one point where I tend agree with you, but it would not surprise me to see inter-CAD compatibility as to MBD before very long.  The PDM software will be more of a driver than the CAD software.

5. Already exists; has at least as long as electronic approval has.

"Mechanical 3D software runs at the limit of what most CAD stations are able to manage."

This is very true, but what you have overlooked is that the only person requiring such hardware is the one creating or editing the model file, not the end users, and that processing power is still ever increasing (I forget the name of that constant).

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

PDM package - that's one of the hurdles for many places.

While I'm convinced of the benefits of one some management aren't, and to do it well again you want interoperability with your vendors, as I understand it.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Your preachin' to the choir with me, KENAT.  While local management here is sold on the idea, corporate still needs some nudging.  As if countless duplicate files and repeatedly loosing primary released data wasn't enough.  Add to that the fact that several of our biggest customers use the software we are considering.  I think that corporate IT just doesn't want to be told what it needs to do unless it comes up with it first.

While interoperability with your vendors would definitely be a good thing, you can still use whatever model files they deliver to you.  Compatability is the biggest hurdle as I see it, and as drawoh mentions in his 4th point.

Again though, that does not negate the fact that a paperless system is possible to accomplish NOW.  You just have to overcome a couple of remaining high hurdles.  With time, I am convinced that it will also become practical, without having to be a GM or Boeing.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ewh,

   Your are refering to Moore's law.  Drawoh's law is that I want more stuff out of my CAD system.  I want to model screw threads, and I want to install my screws by screwing.  I want photorealistic surfaces that account for anodizing, chemical films, zinc plating, translucent materials, and fabrication process.  I want everything to work in real time.

   Once upon a time, I worked on complex assemblies on 2D AutoCAD on a Sparc LX I think.  Something like that.  I would turn off the autoupdate and mess with all sorts of blocks.   Then, I would force an update and go off for a coffee.  

   All of this would work instantly on the computer I have now, but I am not on 2D AutoCAD anymore.  I am on SolidWorks.  I spend a lot of time on Eng-tips because I am waiting for stuff to load or update.  

   You add power to my computer, and I will find a way to (ab)use it.  

                            JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

drawoh,

Moore's law... thanks!

I've been using UG for over 20 years, and Applicon and ComputerVision before that.  We are light years ahead of where we were way back when, and I can only think that such progress will continue.

I remember regenerating a shaded view, being able to take a 30 minute break and returning to my desk before it was finished.  It was handy when cpu usage was checked to see how hard you were working winky smile.  It was also easy to bring the mainframe down, bringing many others to a standstill.

We don't have those problems with UG today.  I now find myself getting frustrated if a command takes more than a couple of seconds to execute.  It runs well on high end laptop computers, and even runs well on Apple computers, using an emulator.  It can create lightweight models which can be fully interrogated and marked up to your hearts desire.  The software is becoming easier to use than ever.  Screw threads, though, still bring a lot of baggage, but it will automatically create them if you want them.
I'm not a salesman, just a user, and I look forward to the ever-increasing improvements that I am seeing.  pc3

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Moores law has hit a bit of a snag though, to get around this they introduced the multi core processors.

Trouble is many aspects of most CAD programs can't take advantage of multiple cores/parallel processing so this limits increases in performance at this time.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

KENAT,

   The problem is that Moore's law really ought to be called Moore's observation.  The technology has to plateau sometime.  At some point in time, you have processor tracks one atom wide, with electronics travelling on them at the speed of light.  

   I only hope this happens after they implement my wish list, above.  Also, I have to be able to play rock videos off the internet while my CAD software does everything at high speed.   

                         JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

You don't ask for much do youwinky smile

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Problem is you can't really "lock out" models in the same way you can encrypt PDF's.  That's why they're the prefered release file type.  Because anyone can view it with a free reader, and almost any computer under the sun can run the software.

Take a case like my current workplace.  We have a pretty decent sized machine shop.  For what you're saying, we'd have to get another 20 seats of SW, and train the machinists to fumble through the software, with computers that can handle them.  Now we aren't even on subscription with the 6 seats we actually use on a daily basis, how do you think we'd be able to afford setting up the whole plant with it?  Yes I know there's edrawings, but it doesn't have the same capabilities with measurements, etc.  Unless you're making an edrawing of the drawing.  Then you're still back at square 1 of having to make a drawing that depicts the correct design intent.

Or, we can keep making drawings, and having our CNC programmer take our models and drawings and create his programs.  This still seems like the most reasonable route to me.

It all sounds great in theory, but unless you're doing very complex surfaces it doesn't really pay dividends imo.  CAD has come a very very long way towards putting the design intent in the model and hitting a "draw it for me" button to basically copy all of the design intent from the model to the drawing so there's minimal detailing time.  I forsee this being more of the direction as machinists and QC will always need some form of drawings to check to.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

There's that word "always" again, and I must respectfully disagree.
soapbox
It is not the responsibility of departments other than engineering to make ANY model changes to released files, so it can not be justified to require the use of the software that created these files for them to complete their tasks.
Our machinists can take our released model and create the CNC program.  They can not change this model (it IS locked out as far as they are concerned), but their software does allow them to read all of the model based annotations and properties.  They do not need a full blown seat of the software, just the CNC software.  They will create a new CNC file which will contain and refer to the parent model file.
Our QA department can use that same model to create a file with the inspection annotations and criteria, again without being able to modify the actual model. Again, they do not need a full blown seat.  They only need to have the ability of annotation creation in a file which contains the parent file.
If and when they find problems with the parent file, it is the responsibility of engineering to rectify the situation, not their own.
This ability is not theory, but reality.  The largest problem, as has been noted before, is to have everyone using concurrent software.  If everything you need is made in-house (with the exception of raw materials), and you've got the $$, then this is very achievable today.

Those "draw it for me" commands are as dangerous as allowing release of unchecked (or peer checked) drawings made by untrained (in drawing creation) engineers.  They don't know what a technically correct drawing is much of the time, and automating the process is just going to exaberate the situation.  But that is a topic which has been well covered in these fora.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

(OP)
On the 45th anniversary I would like to pay homage to the late MLK.

I have a dream where computers talk to computers and all human error is taken out of the equation.

I have a dream where the geometrical electronic representation is beamed via wireless communication to an electronic computer controlled machine to make various machined parts.

I have a dream where computer controlled measuring machines can take the same geometrical electronic representation and created programs to check critical dimensions on the machined part that was just created by the computer controlled machine.  

Oh I have a crazy dream where the entire definition of a machined parts is defined by the creating engineering group and additional human errors are all but eliminated.  

45 years ago Dr MLK spoke of his dream and even though I believe that we have made strides towards his dream we are not 100 percent there yet.  I have a feeling I could reread this great work that I have just written and still see that while we may have made great strides towards seeing a world like this the reality is that this will probably be just what I have suggested it was, a dream.

Please no nasty responses this was all very tongue and cheek, it was written to make you laugh.


SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I've dealt with enough engineers who were terrible at drawing creation.  Typically their modeling practices were FAR worse then that.  At least if they're terrible modelers and decent at drawing layouts it's not SO bad.

Just doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings is all.  Depending on your industry and what you're making I don't think you'll ever get around it.

James Spisich
Design Engineer, CSWP

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

But, for any future editing and to implement MBD, terrible modeling IS bad, and not at all cost effective.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Bester2,

   In a world of 3D modeling, you do not eliminate human error.  You just change the human errors into different human errors.  2D drafting is a language, with definitions and syntax.  3D modeling will have to be a language with definitions and syntax, so that you can write purchase orders and tell people to fabricate widgets as per file 123456.sldprt.  The designers, fabricators and inspectors must be on the same page as it were.

   The 2D drawings generated from 3D models insulate us from some very bad modeling practise.

                         JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Another issue I see is with providing drawings to customers. Where I work, we typically provide only assembly drawings, without details of the parts. Basically, we include drawings to show how the machine works and dimensions/information needed to use and maintain the machine. Anything that would only be necessary to duplicate the machine is NOT given to the customer. One reason is that we do not want this information available outside the company, where it could be used by competitors to reverse engineer the project.

If the only information is 3D models, with measuring capability, then providing the model to the customer is giving EVERYTHING. Sure, people may be able to scale from a typical drawing (although typically the printer is set to "fit to page" so you end up with some weird scale), but it would be difficult and chances are that some details would not be available from just assembly drawings.

I suppose a "dummy" assembly could be created. I know that some manufacturers of engines and things provide a shell of the acual engine. The model doesn't have the pistons/bores or internal workings. However, creating a "dummy" assembly would cost some of the time saved by not creating drawings, and (at least for components without some form of housing) wouldn't be very successful.

I don't see overcoming this obstacle without drawings. And I think that would be a major issue for company presidents and corporate managers...


-- MechEng2005

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

MechEng2005, many CAD systems have some way of semi automatically creating a dumbed down or simplified assembly (although I haven't come across one that works really well yet) so I don't think it's as much of a concern as you do.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

(OP)
I can't believe that my rant has turned into such an interesting discussion.  I see everyone's point and I live in an ideal world where everyone is fair and cut throat corporations do not exist.  In the end that is not how the real world works.  Hence my dream speech ( I am surprised no one has given me an amen or at least a chuckle, I thought that it was pretty funny.  I guess I have an acquired sense of humor).   

Drawoh,

I also agree, you will never get rid of human error but at least only one human is involved and you know where the error is from.  How many times have you been given a part and QC inspects the part, then manufacturing gets the part and it does not fit.  Then you have to track all the parties involved to see where the error lies.  This can take FOREVER and some times it never gets resolved.  

MachineDesign2005,

I have been given such models from vendors of proprietary parts, and re engineered them ( I guess I am just part of the evil corporate empire after all) so I know what you mean.

Once again everyone thanks for contributing to the discussion.   


SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Bester, your dream didn't really adress tolerance definition or mention design documentation verification so no amen from mewinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Bester2,

   Here is an interesting case for you.

   Most of the stuff I design is machined, in small quantities.  I get some sheet metal, and I have done a few weldments.  

   Recently, I designed a casting, and I sent it out for rapid prototyping.  I have a couple of limit and fit issues.

   In 2D or 3D CAD, I model everything to the nominal size.  If I have a 50mm shaft and hole, I model both pieces at 50mm, and I apply tolerances.  For drafting in 2D, this allows me to rethink tolerances at the drawing level.  

   I doubt that the rapid prototype shop looked at my drawings.  They worked off the 3D model, modeled at nominal size.  The 50mm nominal dimension was outside the acceptable tolerance range, and the shop fabricated to the nominal.  

   Obviously, the next time I do rapid prototyping, I will have to rethink my modeling techniques.

   Rapid prototyping is relatively easy, as far as I can tell.  What happens when a machine shop uses your 3D model to generate a precision part?  CNC programs take into account the exact diameter of the cutter.  Someone has to load the correct tools into the machine.  

   One of my impressions of 3D parametric CAD is that, however capabable and productive it is, it is not idiot resistant.  There is a whole lot of stuff that does not work unless you follow good modeling techniques.

                         JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Amen!  But then again, there has yet to be a process that is idiot proof.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Drawoh, for modelling, especially if potentially used to directly programm CNC or create a mold/part from, best practice as I've been taught it is to normally model at mid tolerance range.  There are some exceptions but I do most of my modelling this way.  It makes it a bit more awkward to use the ISO style +.1/.2 on shaft -.1/.2 on holes from nominal dia type dimensioning but at least some CAD systems supposedly handle this OK.

As a general comment, ith true MBD (as I understand it) most of the thought & effort that used to go into drawings gets put into the model, including tolerancing etc.

IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT TOLERANCING OR SETTING DATUMS ETC.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

(OP)
Okay,

I was always told to model at max material conditions and apply the tolerance as annotations.  Obviously in order for this to work the programs would need to be able to interpret the annotations in the drawings and apply it to that feature.  Rapid prototyping machines are not that smart.  

As far as taking into consideration the exact diameter of the cutter, I imagine a digital scanner that scans the tool right before the cutting process is started.  (Hay if I want to think big I should go all the way).  

Design documentation is easy, you release the model inside some sort of web portal that locks your model.  That would give you document control because the web portal would keep a copy of the exact model that was downloaded (I used one of these while I was working for a defense contractor).  You would also have to define annotation views.      

There is not a huge technical hurdle to overcome for this to happen.  All of these programs are just that programs.  There just needs to be linking programs written that can make one CAD system talk to each type of CNC machine and each type of CMM.  This would amount to roughly 10 billion different linking programs (OK I may be slightly off but this is a hurdle, not technical just manpower).  Once again this is all just a dream, please don't take it to seriously.
  
Also about the seats of SW.  You would not have to buy full seats of the program.  I was in a shop that had this go between program that was unable to create features but had all other features of modeling, exploded views, measuring, annotation views, and so on.  I need to find the name of the program and I will post it.  


SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Bester, I can see modelling at max material being good for tolerance checks but based on what I've been told it would be a PITA for using the model data directly in CAM type applications, maybe I've been mis informed.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

thread732-222977: Tedium may be relevant.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I don't see how a software program could create a simplified assembly that would alleviate the concerns from my previous post. However, since my work uses 2D software, I am fairly ignorant when it comes to modeling (although I have used 3D parametric in previous jobs and college). A lot of what information to include is more of a personal judgement call. Unfortunately, (affordable) computers haven't been able to replicate judgement very well.

-- MechEng2005

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

KENAT,

   If it were me generating a model to be rapid prototyped by someone who did not bother reading drawings and other annotations, all my geometry would be at the median tolerance.  

   There are alternate solutions to this problem.  

   None of my part geometry is so complex that it cannot be modeled quickly from one of my drawings.  I have taken advantage of this for design checking purposes.

                    JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

MechEng, I've seen versions in both Solid Edge & Pro E and seen the results from Solid Works if I recall correctly.  None are perfect, especially if you throw in translating to generic format and then into another system but they do exist and work up to a point.

drawoh, loathed as I am to make concessions to manufacturing winky smile this is one case where I believe it may make sense to do so.  If they have to adjust every dimension in the CAM program to allow for tolerances it removes some of the benefit of being able to import the model in the first place.  

I'm not saying they shouldn't still be expected to look at the drawing to review tolerance, or that it's never appropriate to use min, max or uneven bilateral but modelling mid range seems to help them with inconveniencing me most of the time.

 

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

KENAT - I will yield to your superior knowledge.  =)

And I suppose that even if the software did not completely alleviate all the concern, 2D drawings could be made for the sole purpose of customer documentation. Typically, in my field, the customer assembly drawings don't take long to generate anyways, since they usually only include overall dimensions, structural mounting locations, and a BOM.

-- MechEng2005

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

It's just like everything else in every generation. As long as there are still some of us around doing 2D and making drawings, they will not go away.
Drawings and 2D drafting will have to be breed out of people to go away. The younger generations will rule with 3D models and no drawings. It's reality.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
ctopher's blog

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Industry-dependent.  And maybe dependent on develoments in display technology, too.  There's no way something on a small screen (and yes, 24" is small; laptops are even smaller) can compare to a large sheet that you can see your whole piece laid out on and still be able to read, and that you can carry around with you and scribble on.  (Carry and scribble are taken care of by a small tablet PC, but then you're looking at the thing through a tiny window.)

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ctopher,

Quote:

It's just like everything else in every generation. As long as there are still some of us around doing 2D and making drawings, they will not go away.
Drawings and 2D drafting will have to be breed out of people to go away. The younger generations will rule with 3D models and no drawings. It's reality.

   I design stuff that gets installed in aircraft.  The installers want templates for drilling holes.  A laptop with a 44"x32" screen that you can safely drill holes through is way more expensive than a sheet of paper.

   Here in Canada, architects work in metric, and construction people work in English units.  All drawings are converted.  There are an awful lot of people you are going to have to retrain before the future arrives.  :)

                      JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

drawoh,
I also work with aircraft. The future is slowly creeping up on us. These workers will eventually be retrained or replaced. It may take 20+ years, but it will happen.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
ctopher's blog

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I also work with aircraft, and any templates we use are considered manufacturing tools, not drawings.  They are plotted, used and disposed of.  They are not maintained in DDC as a drawing file, but as part of the model file.
Yes, there will need to be major retraining, but it was the same situation with the switch from the board to CAD.  The excuse "because that's the way we've always done it" doesn't fly.
Hg is correct, some industries cannot yet make the change because of their nature.  That doesn't mean it won't ever happen, just that it is still on the horizon.  I don't think it will be too long before you will be able to carry a hardened laptop and a thin sheet monitor of any size that you need, rolled up as if it were a blue print.  Then that excuse will go away.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I hate that comment..."because that's the way we've always done it" ! I have actually witnessed an engineer get fired for that comment by the VP of engineering.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)
ctopher's blog

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Well I've been trying to keep my hands off of this thread for sometime ...I've "preached" extensively on another thread, but my "better sense" is on vacation right now so I think I'll indulge!
  ...SO when did you ever see a welder or machinist with a computer screen so he could fabricate a part? They STILL use the old fashion 2D drafted drawings! Only the clients, designers and engineers get to see the 3D stuff. And surprise, the parts still get made! Engineers think they are selling a concept or idea only and in fact they are, something like a chief preparing a $200 a plate dinner. BUT the meal is carried by those 2D drawings and what would the client think if that meal was served on a "used paper plate"!?? ...No matter how good the meal was!
 Same thing with drawings! You may not like them but they carrying your idea to the client and then to the construction people. Decades of standards and procedure have been generated to insure there is a "proper" way to document drawings. And if you're the engineer then that's not your job! It belongs to the designer/draftsman ...and if they can't handle it, then you or your company needs to find Lead person that can! ..Not an easy find in alot of cases ...but that's another story. My $0.02!
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

11echo,
You shouldn't generalize.
For the past 15 years, every machine shop and weld shop that I have worked with has worked from 3D models. The paper drawings were only for reference and inspection. Ever heard of CAD/"CAM"?
If you work out in a field where there are no computers, paper drawings are a necessity.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

11echo, while I think drawings will be around for a long time you can't ignore the fact there are sectors, or at least sub-sectors, where they are rapidly becoming history, at least in the classic sense.

The model gets sent from the CAD software to CAM software which goes to the machine.  No the machinist doesn't get a drawing.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Try and get prototype weldments without a drawing.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Come on Tick, you know me better than that surely.  If we get rid of drawings I'm out of a job winky smile but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact MBD is increasing.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

The move may eventually happen.  I predict we will go from inept design documentation in 2D to inept design documentation in 3D.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Kenat ...I don't know of ANY sector that requires construction people to build/fabricate directly from a 3D model! In each and every case the 3D model is converted to 2D drawings to pass on to these people. YES there are some places where a 3D design is plugged into a computer and the computer makes the part. But even in these cases I'm guessing more then 75% time a tech is looking at a 2D drawing to make sure the part is being made correctly.
 ...Is 3D here to stay? Yes it is, but it's not the "fix-all" that the computer people claim ...it IS NOT! And you better hang on to those 2D drawing skills!!!
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I read an article in Mechanical Engineering awhile back about all these old solid models owned by, I believe, the DOD that were in danger of all the data being lost because of.....incompatible software. Interesting how the meaning of the word "legacy" has changed from "something of value preserved from the past" to "worthless crap nobody wants to support".

No compatibility issues with paper drawings.

Regards,

Mike

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

The DOD requires CAD models and paper drawings stored in a vault. CAD files are backed up from the local server AND onto an off-site server.
Any company that is not up to 3D models is behind the times. True paper drawings will be around for a little longer, but are fading fast.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

11echo, I'm lead to believe by some in the aerospace & automotive industries that they do have at least portions of products that are truely 3D with no 2D drawings.  As to your claims about assembly I have seen (and played with) software that creates 3D computarized assembly instructions and happen to know there are real world users of this software.

If you'd read my earlier posts you'd see that I don't claim MBD is a fix all.  I actually have significant concerns about aspects of it etc.  I also agree wholeheartedly with Tick that in many cases we'll go from crummy 2D documentation to crummy 3D documentation.  One of the things I haven't got my head round is how to effectively 'check' MBD, and I don't just mean running an interference check on the nominal size models at the assy level.

I certainly think industries with significant 'field' work, such as civil or your sector, will be 2D for a long long time to come.

As to the DODs concern, that's why IGES was created, limited though it may be.  One of the limits I see with MBD is we/they need to come up with a truely standard 'generic' format that keeps Model Based Dimensioning etc.

What is it with me getting caught in the middle ground all the time between opposing view points trying to find the middle road.  We've got those towting that drawings are all but dead on one side and those saying you can't do it by the model on the other.  I believe the truth is somewhere between these 2 extremes and varies a lot by industry/industry sector and even size of company/location in supply chain.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

"The paper drawings were only for reference and inspection."

*ONLY* for inspection??  Inspection is hardly insignificant.  Needing paper for inspection is not at all the same thing as not needing paper.

I think we're a ways away from the abovementioned rollup sheet monitor for situations where paper is still needed.  Especially one hardy enough to be dropped, one which stands up to repeated washings after being poked at with dirty fingers, and which can still be written on with stylus after being poked at with dirty fingers.  And cheap enough to be replaced when it gets stepped on or has something splattered on it.

In a CAM environment, I can see paper going away.  Anyplace where people are doing the work, it's gonna be quite a while.  And I don't see every single industry going entirely to CAM, either.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

In the Civil/Environmental discipline's, I don't see paper drawings going away either.
The aerospace, automotive and mechanical discipline's have already moved into the direction of going paperless.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

KENAT,

   I am not surprised about the automotive and aerospace industries not using drawings.  Much of their stuff is curvy, and hard to document in 2D.

   Most of my stuff is machined, sheet metal, or welded in small quantities.  The shapes are orthogonal, and 2D drawings are effective.  Right now, our machine shops ask for DXF copies of our drawings.  

   Sheet metal shops ask for our SolidWorks models, and they mess with the K factors and such.  Their is intelligence in the 3D model that makes their lives easier.  The 2D drawing still defines the part, and is used to direct the bending process.

   There is an area where 2D drawings work very well.  

                               JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Interestingly, the sample 3D work instructions I saw were actually prepared by an industrial valve manufacturer.  So it's not just automotive & aerospace though they certainly appear to be leading the charge.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

KENAT,
True. I used to design control valves for refineries, etc.
It was ALL 3D. The 2D drawings were only for customers that required them to do site work.
Today a lot of them use laptops to bring up the 2D and 3D files.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

...As I said, I've never seen a welder or backhoe operator working from a lap top! I concede that 3D may work very well in SOME disciplines, mine isn't one of them! I find 3 things wrong with 3D programs:
1. They are becoming a crutch, so that lesser qualified people can try to function (PLEASE ...I'm talking in general here, NOT pointing fingers!)
2. 3D suffers the same problem with ALL computer viewed "models" ...limited viewing capacity. Anybody dealing with computer regularly in their occupation KNOWS this limitation.
3. There are too many 3D programs! In the design world there are limited "qualified" people ...but it now becomes more important as to what computer program you know, as apposed to discipline knowledge! ...Pre-1990 I could get a job at ANY company that required piping designers ...now it's what program I know then my piping experience is looked at. Am I suppose to be proficient in 5 -8 3D programs? (FYI, I have 2 under my belt at present ...but interesting enough I'm not using them).

 There's alot of issues in the way of a 3D takeover. Will it come? Probably ...BUT I'll bet anyone here on this forum and in my discipline will not have to worry about in their occupational lifetime! AND in the mean time, as I suggested earlier, I'd keep up with your 2D drawing skills! ...My $0.02
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

11echo,

In the future, you probably will "never" see a welder or a backhoe operator using a laptop! lol

Do you know Jon Banquer?

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
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RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Gee, I go away for a day and all hell breaks loose.
I am in an industry where MBD is making inroads.  The intent in my previous points were NOT to say drawings are no longer necessary, but to emphasize that IT IS possible today to have a drawingless system in place, depending on the industry.
What fired me up are the posts that say that it is impossible, that drawings will always be necessary, that we need them because that is the way it has always been done.
Anytime you use an absolute, you open yourself to debate.

Technology is advancing at a tremendous rate, accelerating faster than at any other time in history.  We really shouldn't be too surprises at what we may see twenty years down the road.  Twenty years ago, who here would have imagined these fora?  To say it ain't gonna happen is just closing your mind to the possibilities.
idea

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Within 10 years, the majority of the A/E industry will be producing intelligent 3D building models with 2D generated more or less automatically.  The whole BIM ideology is the future.  To respond about employers looking at what programs you know.  It makes sense that an engineer should be proficient in any computer program they use as a design tool. This is incredibly important when you start using 3D models to help design.  If you understand both the discipline knowledge and the knowledge to produce a 3D model and interpret it then it opens up a lot of possibilities in the design process.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ewh, well said.

2D will be around for a long long time, even in some of the areas that are more suitable for MBD in its current form.  If nothing else all the legacy data that's in 2D or 3D/2D hybrid of some form will be around for a while.

11echo I think I agree, at least partially, with all 3 of your 11 Sep 08 18:10 points.  In fact to some extent they match arguments I've made before about issues with purely 3D.  However your earlier posts made claims about people not really using 3D that just aren't universally true.  Making those claims detracts from some otherwise very good points you make and may tend to make people that know less about it think your are some kind of Luddite.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ctopher  ...Jon Banquer? You know that name sounds familiar, but I don't know from where!??

KENAT  ...Well I had to look up "Luddite" ...checked to see if I should be offended! ...Turns out I'm not, nor do I think I match that accusation.
Am I touting destruction of all 3D programs? ...NO!
Do I think there is no place for 3D programs? ...NO!
Do I think 3D programs have hurt the industry? ...YES!
Do I think 3D programs have helped the industry more then it has hurt it? ...I don't know!
I do know that 3D programming have divided the already limited force of qualified people (as I stated earlier) this has caused a farther problem in quality by forcing companies to look overseas for cheaper (less skilled) labor force (again I'm talking in general here).
The other aspect I haven't touched on is what some computer programmer idea of good documentation is a far cry from what I've been taught years ago.
2D drawings are still used by MOST construction people work wide, be they directly generated or turned out by some 3D program. So at present you ARE going to need your 2D capabilities for sometime yet. And for 3D in general, I think it has a long way yet to go before it become mainstream in ALL disciplines!
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

OK, I must just have misunderstood your first 2 posts.  I'm sick of arguing with you over something that I think we agree 90+% on.  

Part of the apparant misunderstanding is probably due to the industry sectors we are in/have knowledge of.  Perhaps your comments were meant to be specific to the field you're in and similare 'construction' fields.

I'm not some MBD evangelist and strongly disagree/take issue with a lot of what the actual OP says, or at least what I perceive to be behind it.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

3D HAS become mainstream in ALL disciplines...except Civil/Environmental/and some Petroleum.
On-site construction people use paper drawings, but the architects and designers that supply the drawings use 3D.
If you want to continue with 2D because "That's how you've always done it", you are WAY behind the times.
Take a trip to most universities and look at what they are being taught. Basic engineering is sometimes taught AutoCAD 2D, but a lot of them are taught 3D, because that is where the world is now.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I totally agree with ewh on this one, it really gets my back up when people say it cannot be done and give a list of reasons.

 You might as well give a list of reasons why it is impossible to build a production car that is capable of travelling at 100 mph or a plane that can seat over 50 people. That does not mean everyone has the need or ability to do it, but it can be done now and is on a daily basis.

I also totally agree it is industry specific; yes a CD with a 3D model on it is as much use to a welder stuck in the wilderness without a laptop as a 2D drawing is to a robot on an automotive production line.

I am still yet to be convinced that everything has to be 3D, for example a wiring diagram, unless space is an issue is yards or even miles of cable better shown in 2D as a representation or as a real life size 3d model?

Yes the non-compatibility of CAD systems is a problem and I don't see that going away anytime soon, you only have to look as far as Solidworks and Catia to see that, but again it can be overcome. Is it really that different from two companies working on the same project where one is English speaking and the other German?

As with any "new" technology it does present challenges, but if we as engineers did not take them on we would still be living in caves and walking to the nearest river to get our water. Surely the whole joy of engineering is saying how can that be done and finding a way, not sitting back and saying that cannot be done, even if others are doing it?
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ctopher  ...You know I spent alot of years in school on how a drawing should look, that plus a fair amount of time on the board operation under that same rule. SO WHY should I accept 3D generated drawings that don't come near that goal! AND that's the problem; schools are teaching 3D drafting thinking this will make a good draftsman/designer! It does NOT! It makes a computer person that thinks the computer program is more important then the depiction of the design or engineering concept!

Can a 3D program be use to generate a piping drawing/  ...YES!

Why do they use 3D programs if documentation is NOT as clear as hand generated drawing? ...Because the powers that be don't have to think about what they are looking at. They don't have to be able to "read" a drawing; they can just look at a picture!

Who is most adversely affected by 3D programming?  ...Construction people, they don't get the luxury of building from 3D computer screens, they have to build from the 2D generated drawing from the 3D programs. These are the ultimate end-users of the 3D program ...does it make sense they should be getting the best product from a 3D program? ...I think so!

AGAIN ...my $0.02!
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I think that you're preaching to the choir about CAD drawings vs board drawings, 11echo.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

11echo,

I never questioned any person's ability to do drafting...different subject.
Anyone that has drafting training or experience should be able to create drawings, CAD or not. If you want to learn 3D CAD or stick to strictly board drafting or 2D CAD, it is up to you.

Board drafting is in the past for a lot of companies. 3D CAD is here now in will be in the future, like it or not.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I'm NOT advocating doing board drawings! I like the abilities a computer give a person ...MUCH better then on the board! My concern is the quality & composition of the drawing! The problem (as I see it) that in educational intuitions there is an easy short-cut in drafting ...why teach hand generated skills when you're not going to use it?! ...But that hand generate skill also leads to how drawing are put together ...or composition! The other item I point at (as I have already stated) is the graphic generation from 3D model to 2D drawings that construction people have to use.
I'm going to post 2 images here; the first is a 3D generated view.
 
[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b172/11echo/work/3Ddraft.jpg[/IMG]
 
This next image is a 2D generated view of the same thing (note there are some differences in the object)

 [IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b172/11echo/work/Handdraft.jpg[/IMG]

This is a good example of what I'm talking about, the 3D program takes longer to generate and the graphics are of a poorer quality. However the 2D generated view is faster and graphics is far better. So if you were a construction guy looking at 2D drawings, which would you like to build from?
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

You can create good & bad drawings with 2D or hybrid 2D/3D.  I've even seen some bad hand drawings.  I nearly said could create something that looks better then either of those using hybrid 2D/3D faster then I could in 2D but I've mostly done 2D/3D not pure 2D so that may not be a fair comparison.

I will agree that many universities and other training emphasize what the CAD can do not what you should do with it.  You learn all the buttons but get little instruction in how to lay our a clear, well defined drawing, dimension it properly ...

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Schools only teach the basics because every discipline uses it differently.
For mechanical engineering, I would never create a drawing per your pics. I do not work with civil or arch drawings.
Drawings as 2D or 3D are 100% up to the company and employee training. Good drawings can be created in both 2D and 3D.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Ctopher, trouble is no one these days seems to teach the basics.  I can appreciate not wanting to get caught up in details on an introductory course.  Also if it's just a CAD class on how to use a specific program fair enough.

Trouble is, most younger drafters & engineers doing drafting seem to have taken a CAD class (often not the same one we want them to use though) and maybe a very brief introduction to drawings course if we're really lucky.  However, few of them have been taught how to properly lay out a drawing, detail it, tolerance it...

So we effectively have to teach them how to draw, which would be fair enough if management would let us do this, but they think a few day CAD course or even just some online tutorials is all they need.

While 3D CAD may be part of the problem it's not all of it or even the root of it.

Anyway, rant over.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

My son is in college. Major- Aerospace Engineering, minor-Materials Engineering.
He will be taught AutoCAD and SolidWorks. Yes it is basics, but not drafting. I believe all engineers should have training in drafting. Most of the engineers I have worked with have no clue about drafting and standards, then parts are waisted because the part is wrong.
With 3D modeling, the part can be tested within CAD, sent to a 3D printer for tests, and sent directly to the CNC/NC machine. The drawings are used for reference and inspection. Every project I worked on for all of the aerospace companies, military, and NASA were all worked this way and were accepted by all.
I think it has been maybe 10 years since I created a 2D drawing for use in actual machining, although I have checked them.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ctopher, that still doesn't fix tolerance issues etc which is where I see a lot of the problems.  To do pure 3D properly you still need to spec tolerances one way or another.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Kenat,
Yes that is true. The tolerance can also be built into the 3D model.
Either way I see major tolerance issues all the time, especially after purchasing/marketing gets a hold of the drawings/models and change the tolerance to save cost!

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Here is a small example of how one of our customers handle.
I admit it looks messy, but everything is defined and downstream users can read it with the correct software.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Yeah I've seen what our software (the other Siemans software) can do with PMI.  I haven't got my head around it yet but doesn't mean it can't be done.

That's what leads you to one of the other issues mentioned above though, your vendor needs the correct software.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

KENAT,
Very good article!

Interesting thought...how many engineers, designers, or drafters can now do simple handwriting? Writing a letter, filling out a check, etc.
I have been so conditioned with printing hand drawings for approx 10 years, then working with CAD for almost 20 years.
Recently I needed to write something and forgot how to write certain words and letters!
I was trained a long time ago in ink printing then pencil until I got it perfect. But lost the touch of handwriting.

I will never return to hand drawings. Computers, along with CAD, has changed the world how we used to know it.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Interesting class.  Free hand drawing is not my strong suit, and I wish that there was a similar course nearby.

As for cursive handwriting, mine looks like a fourth graders, so I can relate with you there Chris.  While I can still remember most all of the letters, I am tediously slow. 99.9% of everything I write is in printed form.  The only real exception is my signature, and that is illegible (but unique).  

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

ewh,

   I used to draw a lot, and I took art in high school.  Being able to draw largely means knowing what stuff looks like.  

   Quite a few years ago, I was asked to design a poster for a friend who was involved with a Fringe theatre festival.  I needed to draw some forest animals sitting around a park sign.  I was okay with racoons, but I had no clue of how to draw a deer.  I know a deer when I see one, but I did not understand the little details of where the ears and antlers go, and how the head is shaped.  I wound up going to the library to look at pictures.  This was prior to the internet.

   Being able to free-hand draw has not helped me much as a designer because most of my design problems consist of fitting things into available space.  I need scale models, in 2D or 3D.

   I do not understand how someone, lacking 3D visualization skills, can do good mechanical design.  Building a 3D model is not a random process.  You have to have some vision of how you are going to solve the problem.

   My printing has gone way downhill since my drafting board days.  My cursive has never been very readable.  

                             JHG

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I agree that freehand drawing is not helpful in making a good engineering drawing, or model for that matter.  It is valuable in sharing concepts as they occur though.  At least that is how I would value it.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. - Thomas Jefferson
 

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

Most of the good ideas around our office start as white-board sketches, or pencil and paper sketches.  Sometimes napkin and paper sketches, at our sadly too-infrequent pub meetings.  Only later do they get refined as 3D models and 2D CAD drawings.

Most helpful to me over the years were the lessons on drawing projected views and iso sketching that were taught in an Engineering Drafting course (done with pencils and two triangles).  I still amaze junior CAD wizards with my ability to find the "true" view of complicated junctions, or generate a cut template for a pipe saddle from 2D drawings.  It can be handy, even with 3D modelling, to be able to figure out the right projection angle ("viewpoint") for certain details.

RE: I Hate Drawings!!!

I started with the same lessons, 9th thru 12th grades...then college and employers.
Three years after HS I started 3D modeling (computing, not GQ  lol).

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 08
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
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