I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
(OP)
I accepted a job offer not knowing a lot about the company I would be working for (secrecy of company), because the company of my choice didn't respond as soon as they said they would. Right before starting, the company of my choice called me for an in-person interview, but I had already accepted the alternative (they said to call back if anything came up). I was enthusiastic about the job though, being very closely related to my #1 choice.
I've been working there for a few months now, and it is my only experience in the field (though I have held several engineering internships before). It was soon that I realized many things were wrong with where I worked:
1- I was told that they hadn't fired anyone in the department. This is so untrue it's not funny.
2- There is NO QC on anything, even though we are designing and building things with the consequences of failure being death/serious injury. The only QC I have seen has been by drafters on drawings, but there is no process for checking design calcs, and things are frequently built before calculations or drawings are made.
3- No traceability on parts. There have been several instances of material being mislabeled as something else with different engineering qualities. Things are not built to drawing and nobody knows until the engineer that designed the product or some other engineer goes out and actually looks at the things and sees obvious mistakes.
4- Severe micromanagement by the boss's boss. One of them signs off on a drawing. Two weeks later after the part is built the other comes along and says that he wants a design change because of inadequacies of the design (even though no calculations were made by the criticizing management). An argument ensues that lasts hours with only guesswork and fumbling without numbers. In other cases, engineered parts are simply removed from designs because they look ugly, with no other justification or even asking the engineer if it will affect the intended use of the product, or its safety.
5- Severe apathy by everyone (this everyone is not an exaggeration for my department), even immediate managers. If you complain that some people are doing something excessively dangerous/stupid, they just comment on how they can't believe it and do absolutely nothing.
6- People with decades of experience in a specific area are treated as incompetent by managers, who believe they can design complex systems themselves without doing any engineering.
I could go on. The point is this place is as close to insane as I've experienced/heard of. I'd like to get back in touch with my #1 choice. My only concern is it will be damaging to my career, or it will somehow get out to my current employer that I am job hunting and I will get canned (they have fired for less). Most of the time I try to do damage control to make sure that nobody is going to get killed or hurt on designs that aren't mine (they were made by people who quit for some/all of the above reasons), without being seen as rocking the boat. In fact, management complained when it was pointed out that certain potentially dangerous things were wrong. They weren't complaining about the error, they complained that it was pointed out.
Is bailing ASAP the best option here?
I've been working there for a few months now, and it is my only experience in the field (though I have held several engineering internships before). It was soon that I realized many things were wrong with where I worked:
1- I was told that they hadn't fired anyone in the department. This is so untrue it's not funny.
2- There is NO QC on anything, even though we are designing and building things with the consequences of failure being death/serious injury. The only QC I have seen has been by drafters on drawings, but there is no process for checking design calcs, and things are frequently built before calculations or drawings are made.
3- No traceability on parts. There have been several instances of material being mislabeled as something else with different engineering qualities. Things are not built to drawing and nobody knows until the engineer that designed the product or some other engineer goes out and actually looks at the things and sees obvious mistakes.
4- Severe micromanagement by the boss's boss. One of them signs off on a drawing. Two weeks later after the part is built the other comes along and says that he wants a design change because of inadequacies of the design (even though no calculations were made by the criticizing management). An argument ensues that lasts hours with only guesswork and fumbling without numbers. In other cases, engineered parts are simply removed from designs because they look ugly, with no other justification or even asking the engineer if it will affect the intended use of the product, or its safety.
5- Severe apathy by everyone (this everyone is not an exaggeration for my department), even immediate managers. If you complain that some people are doing something excessively dangerous/stupid, they just comment on how they can't believe it and do absolutely nothing.
6- People with decades of experience in a specific area are treated as incompetent by managers, who believe they can design complex systems themselves without doing any engineering.
I could go on. The point is this place is as close to insane as I've experienced/heard of. I'd like to get back in touch with my #1 choice. My only concern is it will be damaging to my career, or it will somehow get out to my current employer that I am job hunting and I will get canned (they have fired for less). Most of the time I try to do damage control to make sure that nobody is going to get killed or hurt on designs that aren't mine (they were made by people who quit for some/all of the above reasons), without being seen as rocking the boat. In fact, management complained when it was pointed out that certain potentially dangerous things were wrong. They weren't complaining about the error, they complained that it was pointed out.
Is bailing ASAP the best option here?





RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
I don't think it'll damage your resume as much as staying and getting ground down would.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Just make sure that your complaints are valid and are not a collision with your idealistic view of what engineering and work should be.
Now that you have a better idea of the questions that are important to you, I'd suggest calling the other company and get answers. If it suits you and they're agreeable, then blow that joint and move on. Purge it from your resume and make up a good excuse for the gap in time when you have to explain it for your next job.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Your situation in that company, however, seems nearly hopeless. Unless there is a change in management on the horizon, I'd do as the others recommend, and contact the other company. Ask pertinent questions regarding issues that you have struggled with in your present position. If the opportunity is there, jump on it. If it isn't, quietly start your job search.
A few months there isn't going to hurt your resume much, especially if they have a reputation in the industry. Whatever you do, don't badmouth them to a potential employer. Find a diplomatic way of explaining your short employment there, and your eagerness to move on.
Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
"I realized that my goals differed from that of <former employer> and decided that it would benefit both <former employer> and me to obtain a new job that more closely aligned with those goals." Do NOT badmout your curren/former employer.
However, if you strongly feel that your current company is doing things that are going to cause serious death or injury you should consider making a complaint to OSHA or your state professional engineering organization. Be sure to document carefully, with specific examples. Instead of saying "In other cases, engineered parts are simply removed from designs because they look ugly, with no other justification or even asking the engineer if it will affect the intended use of the product, or its safety," you need to be able to say "On product xyz, part abc was removed without any calculations as to the final safety of the product." But be sure of what you're saying. Just because you don't know of the calculations, doesn't mean they weren't done.
Patricia Lougheed
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Look after yourself and go get the job you want before someone else does.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
And I definitely agree with previous posters about not bad mouthing your current employer.
You have only been there a few months. You are not huritng your career at all by leaving.
But it does sound like most of the companies I have worked for ;) I worked for places like that where they tried to get the PE to sign off on some design the owner had oversaw. And without the PE crunching any numbers! The PE said "No!" of course. The PE was not there much longer because he was "uncooperative."
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Just tell your next employer that you ended up working under some incompetent middle-level engineer and didn't think he was a good influence.
You'll find someone who is a better influence.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Don't, under any circumstances, say that.
Always try to find the good (albeit small) influence that managers have had on you. The best way to phrase it, is as vpl did. Your goals didn't align with those of that company. Simple, concise, and true. Believe me, you will come off sounding more professional.
Good luck, whatever your decision.
V
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
I guess vc66 is correct in that "incompetent" isn't a word that a junior should throw around vocally. If you can explain to him solid proof of incompetence than I'm sure the interviewer will come to his own conclusion.
But you have to be honest because you don't want to work for this new company and find that the CEO is golfing buddies with the other company CEO.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
If asked at your next interview give a canned response to a canned question.
"Why did you leave your last position"
"No room for advancement" Next question please.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
The point of the above story is that while interviewing for other jobs after that, the question of my short employment would be raised. My answer was straight forward and to the point: "I had personal and professional/ethical conflicts with the Manager." Each of those hiring personnel accepted my answer without further questioning, and in each case, I was offered a position with the company.
I believe that you should tell it like it is/was, but avoid making statements which cast judgement on others. That behaviour reflects poorly on you.
jetmaker
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Patricia Lougheed
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Here are some examples. Always make them diplomatic, never personal, and reference some abstract career notion, business condition, or higher purpose:
The business is in a downturn and the future looks grim.
They've gotten some new contracts, but I don't see where my skills fit. It makes me worry, so I'm exploring my options.
It's a great company, but I don't really see any opportunities for further development. I'm looking for a place where I can stretch and be challenged a bit.
I am trying to find work near here because of shorter commute / family issues / health issues.
TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering
www.bluetechnik.com
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Ok, this is a bit of a rant, bu...
What would you expect your prospective new employer to do with the information that your current company has a "serious problem with their safety and quality control?" Stop dealing with the company? Tell others? Call somebody they know at your current employer and say "Do you know what "Anonfrustrated" is saying about you (which is a good way to find yourself unemployed!)? Nothing?
There's an ugly word that applies to the spreading of malicious information about others (whether true or not). It's called gossip.
If you really have a "serious problem" with your current employer's safety and quality control, you shouldn't be telling other companies about it in interviews; you should be taking the steps to get it addressed. Even if you're working on a government contract, OSHA is a good place to start. FAA has a toll-free number on it's website to report, among other things, "suspected, unapproved parts" (although your working on an FAA contract is just supposition). You can write a letter to your congressmen.
If you don't feel you have enough information to do something about your allegation of a "serious problem," then why are you spreading rumor and gossip?
I do understand EddyC's comment about blackballing. However, spreading gossip is a good way to get yourself blackballed because of what it says about you.
Patricia Lougheed
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Thank you very much for your rant, you reinforce my gut feeling about the situation and the proper way to handle it.
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
Its best that you get out of this place ASAP. Good Engineers can't succeed at Bad Companies and Bad Engineers can't succeed in Good Companies. Prospective employers are not interested in hearing about unverifiable "dirty laundry". Some may not agree with me, but at this early phase of your career, its best to avoid any negative publicity about yourself. Let your current superiors worry about the fallout of their actions.
FYI: There is a large aircraft parts repair shop 1 mile from my house. They were considered a good firm. For some reason, they decided to do counterfeit repairs on the parts. They got away with it for awhile, but eventually were caught and lost their FAA Certificate. A whole bunch of guilty, as well as innocent, folks lost their jobs. Can you imagine getting a resume from one of the folks who worked there? Would anyone have a good feeling about that particular resume after knowing what went on at that place?
RE: I think I ended up in the wrong place, need help
I'd say a little too close to badmouthing, more along the lines of "I think that your company would be a better fit because talking to those who work here, you make sure engineering work is done correctly" (after talking to a few people... but even that to mymind is skirting
Basically you want to concentrate on the positives of the new company. "I believe this will be a better fit because XXX" rather than "That was a poor fit because of YYY"
SLH