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Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?
12

Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

(OP)
First, this is most likely going to relate to structural engineers since that is the field that I work.

As I am sure most of you know, when a project is completed and sent out to the city or client, there are always going to be mistakes, but the job is to minimize the amount and size of mistakes.

Last year I was the project engineer for a small 2 story wood framed residence. At the time I don't think that the PE who was stamping the plans thoroughly reviewed it but he did review it and stamp the plans.

Well, now they are building the house and the contractor called with a question and it turns out that I specified the wrong joist hangers on a detail.

So my boss tells me to fix the problem on my own time and not bill him, basically work for free. I realize that I made a mistake, but the contractor installed ALL the hangers and didn't even think about how he was going to secure them to the steel beam. The second that he installed the 1st hanger he should have called me and asked, but he didn't. I realize that I did make a mistake, but I also think that for me to spend my own time working on this for free is not right.
  

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I was always told that if there is a mistake made then the person who should be blamed is the one who checked the work. Your responsibility for the design should end when it is checked and approved by a certifying authority such as the PE, though if you're looking to blame and looking for people to do work for nothing then you're in the wrong place. Go tell your boss to stick his job up his back side and get someone else to do his donkey work.  

corus

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I can understand your boss not wanting to bill the client for the rework.  Surely your firm should be absorbing the cost, possibly reprimanding the PE who screwed up.

- Steve

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Of course the customer should not have to pay for the redesign.  

You, on the other hand, shouldn't have to do the redesign on your own time; allowance for mistakes is part of what any firm includes into its overhead.

Mistakes happen, and we all try to minimize them.  But they are a fact of life.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

4
Your boss is almost certainly breaking the law.  One can state with even greater certainty that he is a knob.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

agreed hes wrong to tell you to do it. If it was a reletive easy rework I probably offer to do it in my own time (couple of hours of calcs etc). Although it has been signed off its still a mistake of yours. Most mistakes are a failure of company procedure though. If someone has signed it off and missed it, he maybe can not be considered competent to do so and therefore the company is at fault fo r appointing him in that position. Personnally I feel he should carry the can in the main, but you made the initial mistake.    

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

i was basing the last post on you being an experienced competent engineer. A inexperienced graduate should not be liable for any mistakes.  

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Part of the risk of being an employer is that employees make mistakes.  In the end, it is the employer's risk and responsibility.  Apparently your boss doesn't realize this.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

3
Put this into perspective, it must be only 1 or 2 hours maximum to sort this out. This will put you out one evening as opposed to blowing the budget and possibly losing a client.

You need to take some personal responsibility for your actions, this attitude that it is no longer your responsibility after it has been checked is just plain wrong.

You should take pride in your work, strive for perfection, and feel bad for the company whenever you do make a big mistake. Yes, the PE should have checked it more thoroughly, but you spend 10 times as long as the checker on the project and you expect the checker to pick up everything?

I have made worst mistakes and I have worked in my own time to sort it out, not because it was demanded of me, but because it was the right thing to do.

On the flip side, I do understand your frustration with the guys on site. If you assume them to have no idea and to not care then you are often not far wrong.



 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

At the bare minimum, there should be a post mortem to dicover where the hole is in procedures and an action plan to fix that hole.

- Steve

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

In my opinion, you should do it, I know I would have probably offered to do it if I was in that situation. However, the issue I see is that your boss lacks a little on inter-personnal skills, I think. There are much better ways to prompt a good engineer to offer resolving a problem and 'taking one for the team'. Maybe his approach is wrong.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I disagree that donating one's own time to fix mistakes is "the right thing to do".  In most is pointless self-flagellation that sets a very bad precedent.  Where will it end?

Name one person who is reasonably competent and makes every effort to perform due diligence that does not make errors.  No one????  Thought so.  It is not reasonable for an employer to expect free fixes for legitimate errors.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

i pesonally would feel responsible for the error, whether the employer 'expects' errors to happen or not. As i feel responsible i wouldn't let other work slip putting my mistake right. There are obvious procedural things wrong here which should be addressed however. If errors are accepted as you suggest you may as well employ cheap incompetent designers and then pick everything up on checks.  

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

The issue seems a lot easier to comprehend in my domain.

I write engineering simulation and analysis software.  It is inevitable that some of my bugs will scrape through testing, no matter how thorough the testing is.  Some of those bugs get to and impact our customers.

Would I ever be expected to fix those bugs on my own time?  No.

- Steve

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I am not saying one should not take responsibility for one's mistakes.  Such an attitude should not be tolerated.

Errors do not occur in a vacuum.  It is exceptionally rare to find a mistake that is entirely the fault of one individual.

The fact remains that humans often incur what is termed in some circles as "human error".  Error is a an eventual certainty. When it occurs, it should be dealt with in a sane, professional manner.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

One more vote for doing it on company time, not your own.  The design is a product of the company, not an individual.  If you were no longer an employee when the mistake was found they wouldn't expect the new guy to fix the mistake for free.  

If it's a quick fix it may not be worth the fight, but it sets a poor precident for the future.  Sometimes the little things are worth fighting over.  

I'm really tired of the attitued that most companies take with employees about working extra hours, such as not paying overtime for salaried employees, but that's a topic for another thread.   

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I see an attitude on the OP that doen't sit right with me.

The OP admits he made an error, but in the same breath say's he does not think the PE was doing a thorough review at the time.  Then he says it is the contractor's fault for not calling him right away because he should have known the drawing was in error.

So, it is not the OP's fault that the PE did not review it enough to catch his error, and it's the contractor's fault for building to the stamped drawing.

Perhaps the Boss is seeing this same type of attitude, and is either trying to teach him a lesson, or get him to quit.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I don't see it quite that way.  The OP admits to his error.  I feel that he is correct in stating that the error should have been caught by the PE or the contractor.

"...he does not think the PE was doing a thorough review..."

- well DUH!  If he were, wouldn't he have caught it?  The contractor is different.  It would have been advantageous had he pointed it out before he did, but he was only bound by the drawing.
  Perhaps the OP should not have made the error in the first place, or at least found it earlier, but NOBODY IS PERFECT!!!  The blame SHOULD be spread around to those that should have caught it before it got as far as it did.  That's the whole purpose of teamwork.
I admire this type of attitude much more than a brown-nosing Uriah Heep only looking out for his own interests.

And what kind of lesson does ignoring labor laws teach?  

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

couple of points how i see it; some, most it seems would disagree.
1) when i design something i accept responsibilty for it. Errors included.
2) if errors are not picked up in checking/approving then this is partly a procedural thing (not being done properly) and partly the checkers fault.
3) blame should be shared around checker, approver and designer.
4)just cause your work gets checked DOES NOT abdicate responsibility.
5) There will always be things a checker can miss and may not agree with.
6) Your boss handled this badly it seems. You should not be overly critisized for a mistake. Maybe he was annoyed with upsetting a valuable client.
7) You are not obliged to repair in own time, however I would, depending on case probably do so. Not out of some kind of brown nosing or guilt towards the company, but because i take pride in what i do and will be annoyed with myself.
8) i have spotted mistakes in my work AFTER it has been checked. This is especially valid in modelling FEA etc. where checking is difficult.
9) Other than when i first started and could not be expected to have sufficient knowledge i would not attempt top hang out the checker in the wind due to my mistakes.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

If you made the mistake on company time, you should fix the mistake on company time....

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

"7) You are not obliged to repair in own time, however I would, depending on case probably do so. Not out of some kind of brown nosing or guilt towards the company, but because i take pride in what i do and will be annoyed with myself. "

That's me.  I think Tick et al are correct that your boss can't reasonably demand it.

However if it really is a clanger, where I should have known better and it wasn't just because I was getting rushed etc then I have put myself out to fix mistakes.  However, I wouldn't give them a full weekend or anything.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Flip the issue around.

If an employee does and exemplary job, is he deserving of raise or bonus at the end of the year?  Should he expect one?

Clearly "fix it on your own time" is not a prime example of leadership, but the OP made a boo-boo that cost his employer money.  The OP's employer is very likely being back-charged for the contractor's rework, and possibly for the delay as well.

It's not clear what the relationship between the OP, the responsible PE and OP's employer is.  Ultimately, the PE that places the stamp on the drawing is responsible for the error and its resolution.

Someone's errors and omissions insurance premium is going up next year - if the policy isn't canceled.

Certainly no one would expect the OP to earn a bonus this year, and a zero raise wouldn't be  out of the question, maybe even a demotion.



 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

ewh,

The OP said
"At the time I don't think that the PE who was stamping the plans thoroughly reviewed it but he did review it and stamp the plans."

He knew the PE was not doing a thorough job.  He accepted his shoddy review.  Are you saying the OP has no resposibility to the job (and by the way the OP was the Project Engineer)?

Yes, people make mistakes, but you own up to your mistakes.  Yes other people on the team made mistakes, but who was responsible for the job?

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

(OP)
Thanks to all that replied.

Since I posted the issue has been resolved. Yes I did provide a solution to the contractor on my own time, which was a very small amount of time, but now the contractor wants our company to pay for the extra hangers that they need to buy.

So today I talked to the contractor and told him that I would like to wait until the project is complete before we pay anything. This is because there have been instances that his framers asked me if they could substitute a connector that they had a lot of instead of the ones that I called out on the detail, which I checked and told them ok.

Basically saving them money.
Actually tonight I thought that I might tell the contractor that I will do the work myself, so that he doesn't have to pay his framers, therefore minimizing our cost.

Now some comments as to others comments:

Monkeydog. I do not have an attitude. I do not see how you can determine that from the facts that I told. Yes, I made a mistake, my boss did not catch it, and the framer did not catch it until they were ALL installed. I actually asked the contractor about that today and he said, "Ya I know where you are going with this, and I already talked with my guys, and told them to think more about what and why they are doing something in future."

CSD72:
I do take pride in my work and try and not make any mistakes, but I can guarantee that even you make mistakes that are not caught. I talk to a lot of contractors and they are always caught off guard by my attitude. I am not the typical engineer. Many of them tell me stories about working with engineers and how most engineers thought that they knew everything and whatever they said was the law, and thats that. I say BS. There is more than one correct way to build something. Also many tell me that they have built all kinds of structures, from highrises to large 30,000 sf custom homes and that there are always details on the structural plans that do not correctly portray the detail or situation. So maybe you may be making a mistake and not even know it.

Whatever. Thanks to all that responded, it was enlightening.
 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I definitely agree that one should own up to his own mistakes.  I would also go so far as to try to correct the problem on my own, provided it could be accomplished in short order, perhaps during breaks, lunch and a little time before/after hours.  I draw the line at being REQD to correct it on my own time, especially if it would take longer than a few hours to accomplish.

Where do you draw the line at taking on personal responsibility for such mistakes?  Financial repercussions can be very expensive, running more than some could hope to make in 10 years or more.  Should they be required to work gratis until those mistakes are paid for?

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

ewh,

This is part of the reason why I feel obliged to try and correct my mistakes in my own time (yes shacked I do do them and admit to them) the cost of redesign is only part of the potential cost of a situation like this so this is a way that you can do your share of the rectification at no monetary cost to you.

Offering to do the site work, or repay monetary damages is just crazy talk that is way way more than what is called for, we do not get paid enough to take that sort of responsibility.

 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I have worked at a couple of places where employees were directed to NEVER work "off the clock" on their own time.

Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

This is the reason for E&O insureance.

An error crept onto the plan and was missed. It cost the contractor time and materials (actual costs) to correct the error.

The company should cover this, it happens.

shacked,

I would say DO NOT go do the work yourself.

"but I can guarantee that even you make mistakes that are not caught"

"I am not the typical engineer."

"Whatever. Thanks to all that responded, it was enlightening."

These comments make it sound like you have an attitude. You don't know anything about us, please don't presume we all fit into one mold. Maybe we are all atypical.
 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

I am a little puzzled by the suggestions that these things should be fixed in your own time if it only takes a little effort.

Does this imply that you are only taking responsibility for small mistakes? How big a mistake would you have to make before you'd be prepared to let it slide?


 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

In previous jobs, I'd probably have been paid overtime to fix the mistake.  I had a boss who grumbled terribly about that racket... but he still payed OT to get mistakes fixed fast.  If you made a habit of making mistakes, you'd be replaced by someone who didn't.

In my current job, my time or their time is a hard distinction to make.  We're an international operation, and people call me with questions at pretty much any hour that seems convenient to them.  It makes it harder to distinguish between "my time" and "their time."  Seems like it can all be "our time."  I've told a couple of people that it was a bad time to talk and they could catch me in 6 hours after I'd had a chance to sleep (for calls at 2am).  Other times, if the problem was big enough, my response would be along the lines of "give me about 10mins to shower and wake up, then call me back."  Those calls are rare, thankfully.  Anyway, my point is just that if you're working more than 40 and getting paid the same regardless, then maybe you can fix the mistakes in some of your shared time.  

(ha- a great example of not sharing my time - I had a short-term supervisor who had me working over christmas break to help fix a problem.  Meanwhile, he went on vacation somewhere west of me.  He called one night at 3am my time to tell me nothing more than that our 9am teleconference was going to be delayed until noon.  I barely choked back some choice profanities, then asked him if it was really necessary to call at this time of night for something so trivial... the idea hadn't occurred to him.)
 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

ivymike,

I hope you get paid well. I know that no-one in my industry gets paid enough for that sort of nonsense.

My comments above are based on the fact that most structural engineers only work about 40 hours a week.  

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

2
Shacked,
The most important point of this whole exercise is what you should have learnt about your contractor.  He is clearly not your mate, but is sweet talking you.  Apparently he detected the mistake at the start but carried on in accordance with the drawings - this is common because his paid rework then includes removing the mistaken details.  Unfortunately, that is his right, as is to claim for the additional hangers.
Regards,
Bill

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

A star for you billbirch.

shacked, welcome to the construction industry where no-one lets morals get in the way of making money. Assume that all contractors are out to screw you and occasionally you will be pleasantly surprised.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

csd72,

That is not limited to just the construction industry.

I have been in the aerospace industry for over 20 years, like you said there are some contractors that are true team members, and some out waiting for your every mistake.

There are even techs within the company that will build it to the drawing knowing it is in error.  Just to say "I did exactly like the engineering tells me."

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

BillBirch is completely correct here, contractors bid projects knowing there will be rework from drawing errors or ommissions, that is where the lowest bidder makes his profit.

As for working on my own time to fix a mistake, I don't think so.  Does your boss also expect you to work on your own time to fix a mistake YOU picked up before the PE reviewed it?

 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Ask the company underwriting the "errors and omissions" insurance who is responsible and see what they say.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

"the construction industry where no-one lets morals get in the way of making money"

I've also found that sort of attitude in the consulting industry, where a less than detailed brief is welcomed because of the opportunities it presents to maximise variations and, therefore, profit.  

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

"the construction industry where no-one lets morals get in the way of making money"
And consultants don't let morals get in their way either.  I have seen drawings so bad that the contractor had to hire an engineer to intreprite them.
Construtability to some consultants means getting the address of the project correct on the cover sheet.  

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

The way I look at this (and it has been mentioned above) is-

There is a risk-reward scenario here.

The business takes on the risk of mistakes/quoting to low for the reward of the profit if they get it right. If your being asked to pick up the risk (of a mistake) then when it goes right- you should be sharing in the reward (profit).

Cheers,

Daniel

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

"I am a little puzzled by the suggestions that these things should be fixed in your own time if it only takes a little effort.

Does this imply that you are only taking responsibility for small mistakes? How big a mistake would you have to make before you'd be prepared to let it slide?"

If it takes a long time to fix it was probably a big mistake.  If so the checks and balances should probably have caught it so the system isn't working and/or they share some of the responsibility.  Or maybe I was being asked to do something I wasn't qualified/trained for etc.  Also if it is that big a mistake then I clearly need to be demoted/fired or something, working a bunch of extra hours wouldn't change that.

Honestly it doesn't make a whole lot of sense Greg.  Basically I take pride in my work but I'm not going to let my employer use that as an excuse to get a bunch of free work etc.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

That wasn't my tack. My employer hires me, warts and all. He hires my mistakes as well as my abilities.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Understood, I just hate making real clangers.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Man, based on some of the responses, I am surprised some of you guys didn't suggest puling the license of the OP (assuming he has one too).  Perhaps be put to death to be sure this doesn't happen again.

Standard of Care

It does allow for some mistakes.
 

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

TDAA,

A dead person cant fix their mistakes.  

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

Yep, death penalty has a zero re-offence rate.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Making mistakes & fixing them on your own time?

A couple months ago, the newspapers reported that one of the 787 Dreamliner fuselages had been damaged. A mechanic in South Carolina apparantly installed protruding head fasteners in holes that had been prepared for flush head fasteners. For non-fastener types out there, the flush head fastener holes are countersunk holes while the protruding head fastener holes are just straigth holes. This caused a 1 month delay on that particular fuselage while they did repairs.

What makes this interesting is the mechanic installed the fasteners in accordance with the drawing. The engineer who released the drawing specified the wrong kind of fastener.

Whose mistake was it? The mechanic or the engineer? Well, the company fired the mechanic. Company felt that the problem was obvious and the employee was negligent in not bringing it to managements attention. In any case, the engineer did not have to make the change on his/her own time.

My personal feel is the company doesn't have any say in what I do on my own time. Asking me to work off the clock is the same thing as telling me what to do in my free time. My free time is my free time.

Other thing to think about is you are getting paid as an employee rather than paid as a business partner. You take little risk as an employee and hence your pay is less than you'd make as a consulting engineer.
 

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