I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
(OP)
Hello all,
Does anyone find there to be in general an increasing amount of ignorance in the engineering community?
I think that we may be suffering from over specialization and commercialization, in the sense that we depend too heavily on vendors, old designs,simulations, and codes rather than fundamental engineering judgement.
My question concern comes from asking engineers that I work with and others in the field questions, especially those that get to fundamental why's, and I often get confusing and conflicting answers. When I was in school, when I asked questions that we practical I rarely got answers.
I've met only a few engineers that had "it" (an intuitive understanding of the fundamentals). I feel most of us, present company included, depend to heavily on software, codes, and standard methods in a design. As the addage goes, when the only tool you know is a hammer everything looks like a nail.
Does anyone find there to be in general an increasing amount of ignorance in the engineering community?
I think that we may be suffering from over specialization and commercialization, in the sense that we depend too heavily on vendors, old designs,simulations, and codes rather than fundamental engineering judgement.
My question concern comes from asking engineers that I work with and others in the field questions, especially those that get to fundamental why's, and I often get confusing and conflicting answers. When I was in school, when I asked questions that we practical I rarely got answers.
I've met only a few engineers that had "it" (an intuitive understanding of the fundamentals). I feel most of us, present company included, depend to heavily on software, codes, and standard methods in a design. As the addage goes, when the only tool you know is a hammer everything looks like a nail.





RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I would say that any engineer that depends on simulations and codes, without using fundamental engineering judgement is a bad engineer.
A typical process where I work goes along the lines of:
- Engineering judgement decides the basic layout.
- Simulation (1) validates whether that first cut holds water.
- Design decides where best to cut the metal.
- Simulation (2) trims and tunes.
- Prototypes prove.
- Steve
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
You list your expertise as electrical. I'm sure there are things that you consider fundamental that I'm ignorant of and vice-versa.
I'm not saying that all engineers are equal. I've met good, bad and indifferent. But I recognize that those that I think "get it" are usually ones that share the same corner of the engineering world that I do.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
Never, but never question engineer's judgement
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
What you describe also happens in my industry, and it seems to be a global thing.
Increasing complexity of codes, the use of computer for everything, complex designs, all add up.
The amount of times I have been asked for a code reference regarding something that is obvious from engineering first principles...
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Apr 30, 2008)
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I don't think saying " I don't know" is a bad thing, it is better then someone feeding you horse puckey!!
However I prefer the answers, "I will look into it and let you know tomorrow."
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
Often, "I do not know." is an honest and profesional answer to a question.
JHG
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I agree that engineering is changing rapidly, and that admitting ignorance is often the correct answer. Still, I see these things in myself and others. My concern is for the overall state profession, and for developing myself into a better engineer.
1) Is that the current state of engineering education is way too simulation/software based. I think first principles need to be drilled into undergrad. I learned more in my 300 junior year level classes than at any other time. All the senior level work and graduate work was just an extension of this. I always had a real problem learning from professors who never did anything other than teach. They are a dangerous bunch as a whole. Professors who worked in industry, seem to have been more rooted, and understood the theory much better.
2) The second problem I believe is that we are way too "vendor driven". We are not examining things further than what the "experts" tell us at lunch and learns. They have a bias to sell, I think we can not accept what they say at face value. Thus seems to create an attitude to do the minimum, and avoid all liability. We need to assume responsibility for our designs.
3) The area of being code driven is related to #2. When we design, we almost never consider alternatives to code or to going above code for A or B reason. I believe we have to be more proactive and assertive.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
"engineers should be more than just technicians".
By that he meant that you should understand all the reasons why you do things and not just blindly follow regulations/rules of paractice/computer programs e.t.c. He also meant that technically you should be able to do what the computer does by hand, even if you never actually do it.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I've never stopped learning. When I did slow down in how much I was learning, I got bored, and changed jobs not too long afterwards. Multiple times. It's one of the reasons I like reading these forums, I usually learn quite a bit about aspects of engineering that I'm not currently directly involved in.
"I learned more in my 300 junior year level classes than at any other time. All the senior level work and graduate work was just an extension of this."
You had some lousy senior level prof's. then. My senior design prof. kicked my butt; I spent more time in the library learning new stuff in that class than for any other class (he just expected us to go find it out, no textbook, no lecture, if you didn't know then why aren't you down in the library finding it the #^#$ out?). I then became his TA for the course as a grad. student...and he again kicked my butt, expected me to work twice as hard on the design project as the BS students did.
I carried that lesson (learn it without being told, and do it quickly) to every job since then, and it has served me well.
"I always had a real problem learning from professors who never did anything other than teach. They are a dangerous bunch as a whole. Professors who worked in industry, seem to have been more rooted, and understood the theory much better."
Um, I learned more from professors who wanted to teach what they knew, and expected me to learn it. I learned little from professors who treated the teaching part of their jobs as a necessary evil, and put in their time until they could get back to whatever pet research project they were working on. Industry experience didn't matter much, one of the best teaching prof's I ever studied under had little job experience as a corporate engineer...but he had a lot of time in doing consulting work for a variety of corporations, they came and sought his help.
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Here here!
I gradually realised after 5 years in my first (real) job that my learning curve was starting to get a flat. Time to move on. If it ever gets flat again I'll do the same.
- Steve
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
Become a contractor, the issue of being at a company long enough for your learning curve to get flat never seems to rear its head.
Kevin
"It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown
"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
Kevin
"It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown
"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown
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Often it should be followed by "Should I be devoting time to find out?" Or "Should YOU be devoting time to find out?"
old field guy
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
Like the sciences in general, engineering is likely to "expand" with more and more specialty niches. It is a result of having to delve further and further into the details. The trick will be to retain a "common" language with which to communicate technical information rather than specialized jargon only few could understand.
Regards,
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RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I generally like this reply, however it only works if you are being asked questions that you don't know the answer too.
I find myself frequently in a mentoring role - either formally with junior employees within my company, or informally with both senior and junior engineers at clients.
I rarely have the opportunity to use OFG's reply. This is not reflective of the scope of my knowledge, but rather seems to be because I get get asked pretty basic questions most of the time.
I think this is indicative of the issue that desnov started this thread with. Too many engineers don't have a good understanding of some pretty fundamental stuff, nor do they have the skills or motivation to try working something out on their own.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
The really disappointing thing is the ease that is the ease that information can now be obtained. More than a few of our colleagues on the site have snappily (and rightly so) responded to posters with basic questions to try Google, or have even linked Google search result strings. Just laziness?
Regards,
Bill
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I dont have my PE, but most PEs I know dont like having it. They like the opportunities it opens, and the pay increase/recognition, but they really dislike the legally binding portion of it.
In fact they were telling me that if you put PE in a letter (such as in your name or title), that the document you send then becomes a legally binding technical opinion, despite not having a PE seal on it. Thus, you are legally liable if the advice you gave is wrong.
I understand why some engineers dont want a PE... because you become liable for everything. And while mistakes shouldnt be made, we see how often mistakes are made.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
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Maybe its just you getting older? As we get nearer the "top of the ladder" the days where we could look around ask question and expect the people around us to know the answers are gone?
Now its you who has to have the answers ready.
Best regards
Morten
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
In the intervening years I have either found the answer out myself, finally bumped into someone who knew, or forgotten the question.
The worst example in my notebook is 4 pages of maths that is in fact a 2 line problem, once I understood it.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
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Fortunately, my work never came under review in life threatening situations. Cadillac liked my elastic-plastic analysis of side impacted crash bars in stretch limos.
The essence of engineering is inventing new arrangements of existing elements, and providing analytical justification for your design. Prep for the PE gave me the confidence to do a better job of engineering design and analysis.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
The problem with this place is that we are too specialized. We don't cross train our engineers and we don't mentor. We have one expert on every component of the machine and when that one person leaves the job, that knowledge is lost. No one else knows that area of specialization and the company, for some reason, doesn't seem to want to make it a priority to train people. Even when people retire and the company has years to prepare a replacement, they just let the person leave and replace them with someone straight from school who has no idea why the machine is designed a certain way and no one to learn from. So you end up having a machine that is "designed" by copying the old designs without knowing any rhyme or reason to it.
Computers and simulations add to the problem too because you don't need to know how to calculate the stress of a complex part anymore, you just model it, run it, and compare the results to your allowables (from code) and you're done.
Of course, on the positive side, I have seen examples where hand calcs were used on difficult stress problems and considered gospel for decades only to be proven wrong by a simple FEA analysis. The simulation is a double edged sword in my opinion. The training, on the other hand, is just plain screwed up IMO.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I find myself having to give a lot more 'I don't know' answers because of the constraints put on investigating building system failures. My client base generally consists of defense attorneys. The cases usually involve class action lawsuits on housing developments built 7 to 8 years ago.
Over the last few years, the attorneys have restricted the number of homes I inspect to save money on expert fees. I have NEVER been allowed to do destructive testing if it was not already planned by the plaintiff. The last time I suggested a mock up and burn test on 'similar' construction, it resulted in a complaint call to my boss.
So when an attorney tells me only to spend half a day looking at 3-4 homes out of 75, allows no defense destructive testing, refuses to pay for my time to watch plaintiff testing, and then asks me, 'so why is the stucco cracked', I reply 'how should I know?'.
OK, I don't REALLY say that, but it's what I'm thinking.
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
i say "i don't know" all the time. but i usually say "i'll look into it."
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
The biggest issue is that we're in the age of specialization; we have an ME that does the design, another that runs the FEA, and another that runs the thermal FEA. In programming, if you graduate with a BSCS or BSCE, you'll get very little in the way of actual math and physics, so those that need to write code for processing coordinate transforms need someone to actually lay out the exact mathematical operations for the programmer to code up, again, the consequences of specialization.
TTFN
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RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
I see both your positions and I think you both have valid points. I guess what I see as the tragedy is that the highly educated and specialized individuals that IRstuff describes are going to end up working (in a sadly significant number of cases) for the "party" mentality, great self-esteem with no critical thinking skills crowd that ornerynorsk describes.
While I don't know if it is possible to survice the curricula that IRstuff describes without having critical thinking and reasoning skills, it is certainly possible to obtain a management degree and access to that "higher plane" of management without them.
debodine
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
But I have noticed a lot more I don't know people since entering automotive. My last job was really bad. If it wasn't an I don't know answer it was an answer that sounded as though they were unsure. And it didn't match the two other people that gave me an unsure answer. And it was something they should have known.
I always worry about my skills and knowledge becomming stale. But sometimes specialization is the only way to move up.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
"I don't know" could be a call for Help!
But on the flip side of it, You have to ask a particular question to get a particular answer. Asking broad overall questions usually will get you the "I don't know" pat answer.
So the conclusion to "I don't know" should fall on the asker of the question. If you get this answer ask another question or a more detailed question. If you keep getting the "I don't know" to a particular lasered question then the person you are talking to probably does not know much in his field. Maybe he needs help or ask someone who does know the answers.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
The personal gratification in helping out a colleague has been overshadowed by a desire to focus on my own responsibilities.
I know we are all supposed to be team players, but at the end of the day, I am responsible for me.
RE: I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME
haven't you noticed that this trend is in every single industry? i.e. doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers, people without university education included etc. seem to be getting way too comfortable with making money without having to work "hard". I suspect this is the reason for our economic troubles. As a matter of fact I knew a couple of people at school who mentioned they were becoming teachers because they could make enough money to survive and had three months of vacation. There is no ethical behavior out in the world any more, it takes too much time and work to do the right thing I guess.
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And now we are seeing questions that in the past were never a concern. We would just over size things to allow for unforseen factors.