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Question on Commutes and on Management
5

Question on Commutes and on Management

Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
How long of a commute do most people have to their office?  Is there anyone who's considered changing jobs (or has changed jobs) to get a shorter commute?

I have an hour commute one way into the office and it's becoming a bit burdensome on my home life.  I also have a 3rd child coming in about 2 months and the extra time away from home is going to be even more problematic.  On top of the quality of life issues, it is becoming very expensive (I spend almost $600/month on gas - not including my wife's vehicle).

If I didn't like my job or the people I work with I would have started looking already, but I love my job and I really enjoy the people I work with.  On top of that, I happen to be one of the lucky ones (from what I've read in other posts anyway) that has a very good manager on top of the other good things at work.  The prospect of changing companies and potentially having to work for one of these horrible managers is a bit scary.  This is really only my second job (first in engineering - I worked for manufacturing company for 9 years) and I've been lucky enough to not have a horrible manager yet.  I would appreciate if people give me an idea of how many of their managers have been hard to work for - either having unrealistic expectations for work output or just being an outright jerk or any other issues.  I would think that most managers would want to be liked by their employees since I don't think most people enjoy acting like jerks, but I could be wrong.

So the bottom line is that I would love to look for a new job closer to home with a more flexible schedule, but I am scared to death of ending up in a job I don't like or working for a manager who is difficult.  As much as I hate the extra drive time, I'd rather spend the extra 1-2 hours per day driving than hate the 8-9 hours in between the commutes to and from the office.

 

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

2
If you have a great situation in the work place then stay there.  Changing jobs is risky not only from the direct boss view but also his boss and on up the food chain.  There is also risk that the company itself may not please you.  I have changed jobs a few times changed boss more times and you really never know until you are working in the situation.  Even if someone seems good in an interview they may not be good to work for.  If you are miserable for 9 hours during the work day even a 15 minute commute home won't make it better.

If it is truly a problem get a house closer to work.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

StructuralEIT-

Would it be possible to approach your current company about working from home twice a week or so (as projects and time permit)?

They may be willing to accommodate such a request in order to retain a good engineer. I wouldn't approach it as an ultimatum. In fact you could spin it and say something to the effect of wanting the company to be "greener" and allowing employees to work from home a couple of days a week would help.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management



"So the bottom line is that I would love to look for a new job closer to home with a more flexible schedule, but I am scared to death of ending up in a job I don't like or working for a manager who is difficult.  As much as I hate the extra drive time, I'd rather spend the extra 1-2 hours per day driving than hate the 8-9 hours in between the commutes to and from the office."

I think you answered your own question. If you are that happy with what you are doing and where you work. I would talk to your current employer and see if something can be worked out to make it easier on your travel.  All I can say is be creative and make sure you do not come accross like your are giving an ultimatum. There are quite a few out there that wish they had your problem.  I would assume that you have looked at moving closer to your job.
 

Eddie

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Stay, it's all I can say

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
I have looked at moving closer to my office, but we live in a pretty expensive area right now and it only gets more expensive (and pretty quickly) as you get closer to where my office is located.
I would certainly not come across as giving an ultimatum - I am always very conscious of how I pose a question.  
A few things that makes me uncomfortable about asking for something like working from home a couple days a week are:
1.  My boss lives farther from the office than I do.  
2.  There are several other people in the office with commutes over 1/2 hour
3.  I've only been here for two years.

I know there are plenty of people who wish they had my "problem" and that I should be thanking my lucky stars, but as I said, it is taking a toll on my home/family life and a 3rd child coming soon is only going to make it worse.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Keep the job and move ---

Take the $600/month gas expense and put it into a new mortgage.

One of the many reasons I took this job 11 years ago was to be closer to home - now about 10 minutes - used to be 45 or so.  On the days my wife watches the g-kids - I go home for lunch - eat with them, gives her a few minutes off, etc, etc.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

An hour communte can be burdensome, specially if it is traffic related and not distance. And will probably only get worse. How about starting and finishing work earlier? Avoiding rush hours? I get in the office 7-7:30ish and leave just after four. My commute is then 20min. If I hit peak, then it is 45-75min long. But I do have a great manager that does not mind this

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I would also suggest moving.  If you find another job thats closer and you end up miserable for 8 hours thats gonna affect your home life.

I hate my job, hours and commute.  But they pay so well ;)
But having a family is difficult because I am not in the best of moods when I get home.  And because of my hours and the commute its another hour or two out of my day.  Doesn't sound like much until you have a family.

I will probably find another job soon that maybe pay's a little less but gives me more time at home.  

Plus gas prices are so crazy I could take a pay cut on top of what I would be willing to sacrifice in salary if I had a short commute.

I will probably hate my new job too but I have decided that I will never be happy with my job ;)  might as well try to enjoy the hours outside of work.
 

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

With gas prices going up as they are, maybe the mass transit options in your area will increase.  Taking mass transit can add some time to a commute, but you can spend the time sleeping or reading.  You are more refreshed when you get home.  I commuted 1:45 each way on mass transit for years.  It was not so bad and I became very well read.
When my kids hit high school, though, I switched to a job with 0:25 minute commute.  I just wanted to spend more time with them and, more importantly, avoid my house becoming the afternoon party spot.  I sure do miss my job in the big city and plan to return someday.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I use to commute 18 miles to work (1gal of gas one way), took about 35mins.  I moved closer to work in order to have a 15min commute at about 8 miles (different traffic patterns).  Six months later, I got a new job that was 16 miles away, with a 20min commute.  There is no winning for me.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the be

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I think unotec's suggestion is the best so far (if working from home is off limits).  And if the mother of your children doesn't mind you clearing off as the sun rises.  Time with the kids after school is nicer than time before.

The only worry is that getting into work early doesn't always guarantee getting away early.

- Steve

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

That's when I get the dreaded long drive and suffer watching my gasoline level indicator drop while I'm parked in the fast lane

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying " Damn that was fun!" - Unknown>>

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

keep the job and move - while the kids are young.  Moving older kids is difficult.  When I bought my home I took a map and drew a 10 mile radius around the office.  I only looked at homes within the circle.  When I moved a few years ago, I got 2 miles closer.  It really is convenient living just 7 1/2 miles from work.  And I only fill the tank every 8 or 9 days.  My wife lives 1 mile from work and so she is able to work through lunch and be home by 3:30 since her commute time is only 5 minutes.  this more than compensates for the higher cost of living in the city versus moving to the burbs.  I have passed up several good job offers because the commute would have been 3 - 4 times longer.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

This is my first job that I have been only 15 minutes away from home I can work and have a life!

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
I've been looking at homes closer to my office, but, like I said, they get very expensive very fast.  We are already around 75% of what I would feel comfortable with for a mortgage and to get within 20 minutes of my office it is going to almost double.   

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

If you take the money you save on gas, would you be able to buy closer?
Would moving closer to work make your spouse's drive longer?
What about changing your work hours, or is it all rush hour all the time?
It is quite a dilema that you are in, and from the changing jobs perspective, the grass is always looks greeener on the other side.  Have you talked about your commute with you manager to see if they have any thoughts?
 

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
I've talked briefly with my boss about it and have been able to leave a little early typically (around 5 insttead of 5:30), but I would need to be in by 6:30-7:00 and leave by 3:30 each day to miss rush hour.  It's also hard for me to complain too much when my boss has a longer drive than I do.  After him, though, I have the longest drive in the office.  
Moving closer to my office would be closer to my wife's job.  She isn't too far from her office right now (around 30 minutes), but I'm sure any time saved there would be fine with her.

It seems like the advice is definitely to not change jobs.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Have you looked at the option of coming in late and leaving late. This is less popular so I have found it is easier to avoid the traffic this way.

Coming in earlier just means that you are in traffic with tradesmen rather than office workers.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I definitely wouldn't change jobs if you like it as much as you say.  

I currently commute nearly 1.5 hours each way, but I do so because I love where I work.  The learning environment is outstanding and the type of jobs I get to work on vary quite a bit.  I feel the same as you in asking about working at home or getting a company vehicle since several of my coworkers drive 45 minutes to 1 hour each way also.  My situation is a little different than yours in that I don't have a mortgage (I inherited my home) and my wife's commute from her job is only 15 minutes.  I also don't have any children (yet).

Everything comes with a sacrifice.  The question is, what do you want to give up and what do you want to gain?  For me, the commute is worth the job.  

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Over the past 24 years, I have worked at the same company.

But within the company, my office location has moved 6 times.  

And I lived in 5 different locations, with a commute starting at 15 minutes, up to 45 minutes (25 miles) ending up in 5 minutes (3 miles).

I ended up going the early-in early-out method, developed during the 25 mile commute days.

I say keep the job you like, as life goes on, you will probably have some easy commutes and some tough commutes, but at least when you go home, you won't be taking garbage with you.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

As a side note (& something that irks me):
One benefit to the "late in/late out" is that for whatever reason, no one really notices that you come in late, and when you are consistently the last one to leave, everyone thinks you are working really hard -- people who are "early in/early out" are seen as leaving early, and not pulling their weight, since no one is at work to notice that they have been there for an hour before everyone else gets in.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Quote:

Take the $600/month gas expense and put it into a new mortgage.

This is a common mistake when comparing commuting costs, you need to consider the cost of the vehicle and maintenance as well and not just the out of pocket expenses.  (not picking on you Mike, just using your statement as an example)  With that much driving, you are probably buying a new car every few years or spending a lot on the maintenance.  AAA claims a rate of $0.71 a mile last time I looked for our area, so your actual savings per year are probably significantly more then $600/month.  I could certainly afford a more expensive house if I was saving $12-15k a year in commuting expenses and you might as well if you sit down and run the actual numbers.

I turned down a good job offer for the identical reasons you are stating here, the commute would be over an hour each way, the housing costs are substancially more expensive closer to this company and we just had our second child.  I place a high value on family life and could not justify the extra time away from the family in addition to the extra $15k in commuting costs.  The kids grow so fast and that is time you will never get back. I would recommend going in earlier to work like one poster mentioned and start looking to see if there is something you can afford closer to the company.  You are in an ideal position, you don't have to move and have time to find something that works for you.  

To answer your other question, it is risky finding a new company to work for, but you could do that as well.  Start a search to see if there is anything in your area that interests you and then before accepting anything, talk to as many people as you can to make sure it will be a good fit.  A good manager will understand you wanting to make sure the fit works, he wants the same thing, someone that gives you flak about it probably is not someone you want to work for.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
Well, I change my own fluids and drive my vehicles until they die (literally).  I had 240k miles on the last one when I got rid of it just a couple years ago.  I had that vehicle for almost 9 years.  
My work is only 30 miles from my house (not overly oppressive), but there are a million other people tgoing the same direction I need to.
I ran through that calc (assuming $0.71/mile and assuming that I would be 10 miles from work which is a reduction of 40 miles per day) and I come up with a savings of $611.
I can't eliminate gas or driving completely because I do have other things I need to drive for (e.g. sports practice, child care, grocery store, etc...).

I certainly appreciate all of the input.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

In my last comment I meant to say, the job is worth the commute.  I really, really, really don't enjoy driving that much.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

My commute is 2 1/2 - 3 hours each way. Northeast PA to NYC. When I lived and worked in the City commuting time varied from 15 minutes to 1 hour, depending on whether I was on a field job or in the office.

If you want to stay where you are - home and job - is there public transportation available? I recall you mentioned in a post that you're in the Philadelphia area, can you take Septa? A long commute stinks but it's a bit more tolerable when someone else is driving. When I lived in NY riding the subway for 45 minutes to an hour was nothing. 20 years ago, when I first married I commuted from NY to New Haven for a year - 78 miles each way - got old fast. Even a one hour commute - when you're doing the driving - stinks. Occasionally, I work on field assignments in the Philadelphia area so I know what the traffic is like.

Can you work a 4-day week (10 hours per day; work at home one or two days per week? I have a flexible arrangement where I am; sometimes it works; sometimes it's more trouble than it's worth. Working from home is fairly easy if you're working alone or  with only one or two people on a project.

With the difficulty in finding good people your boss might be open to some type of flexible schedule. My boss is usually OK with my coming & going but I work it out so that I'm in the office when I have to be here and can be easily reached when I'm not.

 

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
All but one of the SEPTA lines are north of me and that one is about 20 miles east of me.  It would take me 30 minutes to get to the nearest train station and then another 40 on the train.  
I'm considering asking about a flexible schedule.  I know I've sort of thrown the idea around to other people or just asked some probing questions and the theme is that our office NEEDS to be available when our clients need us to be (within reason, obviously - architects tend to keep odd hours).  A big part of this is because of the architects that we work with - most have won a considerable number of AIA awards and very often have projects that we work on with them written about in magazines and newspapers.

I don't even take the main roads into work.  If I did, it would be even worse.  If there is no traffic I can get to the office in about 35 minutes taking the main roads.  During the hours I travel, it takes 1 hour and 45 minutes on the main roads.  I take all back roads and it is between an hour, and an hour and 10 minutes pretty much regardless of when I travel.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I was working at a company for ~3yr when they decided to relocate approximately 10kms away.  Unfortunately, the new location meant a morning commute of approx 50min, and >1hr in the afternoon.  On bad days, I worked late instead of trying to go home, or took a toll road (costing a lot).

I started looking for a new job 3 months after the move.  The new job is now 10 mins each way.  Within the first week of the new job, my wife was commenting on how happier I was in the evenings, how much more energy I had etc. And as a bonus, I only fill up every 1.5-2weeks (as opposed to twice a week).

Personally, if I can make it happen, I'll never go to a job requiring more than 15-20mins each way.   

-
Syl.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

The thing to change for an onerous commute is your home address.  Jobs are too important to change for petty neighborhood concerns.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

structEIT.. I have seen most of your posts and to be honest with you I think you are one hell of an engineer for how much experience you have.  Dont worry about how much you like your job right now.  Take care of your self!  Usually the best way to increase your salary is by moving to a different company.  I am pretty sure you can find that one perfect job where you only have 15 min of commute plus it will pay much more.

OR,

Ask your boss if you can do 4 10hr schedule so you have 3 days weekends and only have to commute 4X a week.

AND

Get your self a hybrid or a SMART car  :)

 

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Your obviously unhappy with your current situation if your asking strangers for advice.  I'd look for another job and another house.  You might be surprised by what you find.  There might be a perfect job just around the corner from your house.  Once you've uncovered your options you can sit down with your wife and discuss the relative merits.  It might be that moving closer to work into a smaller home is a worthwhile trade if you can be more active in your children's lives.  It may not be.  You can only truly make the decision after you've got the facts.  Otherwise you might as well flip a coin.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

When I worked in San Francisco, I had a 1.5 hour commute each way. When I worked in San Jose, I had a 1.5 hour commute each way. When I worked in Manhattan, I had a 1.75 hour commute each way. Now I work in Honolulu, and have a 1.25 hour commute each way.

It seems like even the best paying structural jobs at the most prestigious engineering firms don't pay enough for younger guys to afford to live in the Big City (or even close within 30 minutes). I guess I could make it work, but I want to live in a nice house with 3 bedrooms and a big yard for the dog and toddlers -- not a dirty 900 square foot studio apartment with no grass.

I think unless you win the lottery, commuting (for guys who aren't successful doctors or lawyers) is just a way of life for the rest of eternity (if you want a safe, decent environment for your wife and kids). And it's only gonna get worse.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Your other question was about managers.

I haven't had that many I really work with well, most I have been able to ignore/work around. I've had say 4 good ones and 6 bad ones and a couple in the middle. I would leave a job if I couldn't work around a bad manager.

Some of those bad managers were good people in a bad situation.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

When our first child was on the way and my wife was making $10/hr with her Masters degree (Psychology), I took a job with another Company for a slight raise and an opportunity to broaden my experience.  I would be ashamed to mention how short both commutes were.  The new job was with a great engineer, I still measure myself against him, but the environment was substantially different and I eventually became miserable.  When I left for this job, I left on a good note with plenty of notice and was told that if I ever changed my mind I was welcome back.  I eventually took him up on his offer, pay cut and all...  I know that when I come in early I usually get more work done in two hours than most days.  This may be a selling point, your productivity could speak for itself.  One way to approach your boss may be with a trial proposal so you aren't asking them to commit to something that may not work out for them.  "I'll try it for one month over which you can measure my productivity and general impact to the office.  At the end of the month you can decide if we should try another month trial."  Perhaps giving them an out until you can prove if it works for the both of you will sell the idea.  That's all I've got...
   

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

StructuralEIT,

Are there others in the office who live close enough nearby to carpool with?  This is something I have been able to do on occasion (unfortunately not currently), and it can certainly help reduce your costs.  The downside is the occasions when schedule conflicts occur at the last minute.  You lose some flexibility.

You like the job (which can be a rarity in and of itself), so like the other respondents, I would recommend staying with it.

Regards

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

$600 a month in gas? For a 30 mile trip?  Assuming $4.00 per gallon, and making a few other assumptions, that is 6-7 gallons per day for 60 miles.  That's 10 mpg or less.  Get a much more efficient car before worrying about moving.  You ought to be able to at least double your mileage.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

the $600 includes more than just fuel - you have maintenance and depreciation also.  Besides for stop and go city driving, the cost might be more.  I believe the AAA rate of 71 cents per mile does not assume all "stop and go" city driving, but a mix of different types. It's hard to tell what kind of car StructuralEITdrives since he has not given that information...

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
I have an SUV that gets around 16 mpg, but I also have to drive other places beyond just work grocery stores, dr. appt's sports practices, child care, etc....).  While the $600/month in gas is a consideration, it is small in comparison to the extra 2 - 2.5 hours a day spent away from home (not to mention that moving even around the corner from my office will not do any better than cut my gas bill in half because of the driving requirements noted above).  The 2 - 2.5 hours per day on the road is my biggest concern.  It is valuable time away from my family.  I am gone between 11 hours (on a good day) and 12 hours on a not-so-good day.  By the time I get home, eat dinner with the kids, and check some homework I only have about 15-20 minutes with them before it's bed time.  
That really sucks.

The question regarding the manager was really to get an idea of whether a good manager is really difficult to come by.  That is just to gauge whether it is going to be really hard to find another one if I leave where I am.  I love my job a lot........ A LOT.
That being said, I don't want to miss out on too much with my kids.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

go all out man.  Find a job in different states also.  Find a good neighborhood.  I dont know which state you are in but in colorado you can find plety of houses for less than 300k with big yards and have 20 min commute to downtown Denver.  I think your kids are your no. 1 priority.  15-20 min with them at night is not acceptable I think.  Before you know it, they are 16 and have trouble at school.  But I cant say much since I dont have kids smile

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

2
" Jobs are too important to change for petty neighborhood concerns."

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there.  Family and home life come first, the job is simply a tool to look after the others.

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I live 6 minutes from work.

I would try to move or get a motocycle,moped, or something.
Good bosses are a hard find  

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

(OP)
gymmeh-

That's a riot!!  You did read above that I have to take kids to and from childcare, sports practices, etc....., right?

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Nope, hehe, I apologize, skimmed over that part...

Wouldn't it be romantic to moped with your wife/gf 60 minutes every day? winky smile

I am not sure how you would fit the little one(s) in there... do they still make those side carts like in Indiana Jones?
 

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

Didn't get a chance to read all the posts, any chance you can do some kind of car pool like PSE says?  Less gas $, when not driving you can snooze/read reports etc.

Oh, and do you really need/are you stick with the SUV?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I've always been curious about where AAA (or the government for that matter) gets these +/-$0.70/mile cost estimates from.

I bought a used (3 year old Cavilier in 1998) with 47,000 miles on it; pretty much brand new to me.  I've just recently gotten rid of it.  It had 223,000 miles on it.

I kept receipts for the original purchase, every oil change, repair, insurance, gas (adjusted for price changes over the years), etc.  I've calculated that the car has cost me about $0.15/mile to drive.  That's not even including the $200 I got out of it when I sold it either.  That's even including the computer, which had to be replaced in it around 150,000 miles.

I suppose if you buy a brand new $40,000 vehicle (something not fuel efficient at all) every few years, and need to replace the transmission within that time every year, it may be possible to get closer to that $0.70/mile figure we read about.

Unless you're independantly wealthy where it's simply not an issue, it's a good reminder of how poor an investment new vehicles really are!

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I think some may be missing the point. It's not the money for gas that he's referring to as troublesome, but the time spent away from home.

StructuralEIT there are three ways to deal with your situation.

1. Move to a different job, closer to home.
2. Move to a different house, closer to your job.
3. Suck it up.

Personally, I put my family first, as I believe you probably do too. That takes (3) out of the equation. Which would be an easier transition for you? Changing jobs, or changing houses? Take whichever one wins out, and compare it to how much more time you'd have with your family, how much more energy you'd have, etc. If it's worth it, do it.

You won't be happy having less time to watch your kids grow up. Great boss or not.

Good luck with your decision, it's definitely a tough one.

V

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

With regards to my last post I meant to say, "... it's not the money for gas that he's referring to as most troublesome..."

V

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

the original poster definitely expressed concern with the cost of commuting as well as the impact on home life.  and as we all know, money problems are one of the largest and most difficult issues many families face.  that said, moving or  changing jobs might increase the amount of family time but cannot do that at the expense of higher bills.   

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

I'm with COEngineer.  I had a 124 mile commute for 8 1/2 years.  4/10's is what to go for.  I only have a 44 mile commute now and I still do 4/10's if we're not seriously under the gun.

3-day weekends can do a lot for a man's family...



If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

RE: Question on Commutes and on Management

3 day weekends are good, I like them a lot, but I don't take them for granted either.

VC66, part of my point with carpooling is that the day you aren't driving you can snooze or whatever.  Hence freeing up a little time at home.

Sure an hour spent half dozing in a car either way isn't like 2 in bed but it helps a little.

I used the train for a short time and it was pretty nice being able to snooze or read a report or whatever.  Also allowed for wind down after work so by the time you get home you are in home mind set, not work or driving mind set.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

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