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Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections
4

Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

(OP)
I have no experience with these companies. Could you share your opinions in terms of convenience of setting, software, maintenance, customer service, etc.
 

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Dave ( dpc), I know your answer smile.
Sorry Plamen for the offtop, I have no experience too.
Best Regards.
Slava

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections


From my little experience,

GE: really easy to set, with enervista software even more.  If you don't want to lose time, it works well.

SEL: very difficult to understand the first time, but once you get it, you can do everything you want with these relays.  You must work at least one time with a SEL relay to understand how they like to make things complicated, but there's no limit of what you can do with it.

SEL have a 10 years warranty too.

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

tem1234 is right on the Enervista software - I have used most of the major manufacturer's software and it is the best by far IMHO.

SEL does have the 10-yr warranty, but my understanding is that they have never charged to repair a relay, even ones >10-yrs old.

If you dig into the relays past the 51 element - check, 50 - check, etc. you will see that both use similar algorithms that sometimes have the same or different weak spots in the algorithm. This can be said for any protection relay.

From my personal experience, SEL has better tech support, but I might just have a good field guy.

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

(OP)
OK, it seems more or less clear for first impression.
SEL confused me a bit with their several software modules - some of them are free of charge, some are paid (actually not very expensive comparing with Siemens's DIGSI). Which modules are necessary for engineering activities, not just for changing of setting values?
Sorry for the stupid questions, I just started to look more deeply in their product line. SEL are not popular here in East Europe (GE also).
I don't afraid if the software seems difficult for the first time - if I got with Siemens, ABB and AREVA, I should work with SEL too smile

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

The learning curve for the SEL relays is more difficult than the GE relays, but for customer service SEL is far, far superior, at least in the US.

SEL relays are not drawout, if that is considered a requirement.  Test switches are recommended.  

Schweitzer's basic business is making relays.  GE's basic business these days is........ what exactly?  Probably buying up innovative companies like Multilin and slowly sucking the life force out of them.  

Everything else being equal, I would always recommend SEL relays to a client over GE mainly due to the better customer service.

Try this test:  Come up with a technical question regarding a relay.  Then call GE/Multilin customer service and SEL customer service.  

Of course, your mileage may vary...  

Cheers,

Dave

  



 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

(OP)
Thank you, guys!
 

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

I've actually had reasonably good luck with GE tech support, but most of their folks seem to be non-native English speakers so you have to listen carefully and ask questions. They seemed to know their stuff.

SEL is very good also and very willing to help with specific applications.

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Yes,I think GE is the best. Easy to use and set.
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

GE relays seem to have short availabilty, which makes a failure a relay replacment job.
SEL still sells there earler relay platforms, if you want them, so a relay failure is more of a replacment of like and kind.

One concern I've seen is buying relays outside of the country, which becomes a hassle for shipping and custom paper work. For me I look at where I have to send the relay if it needs to be repaired. It may not be a problem for one or two relays, but with the more relays you get closer to the magic normal failure rate.

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Cranky108!!!
I'm fully agree with you!!!!
This is a issue, not price of relay or easier setting.
And additionaly, good technical support near to you.
Best Regards.
Slava
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

(OP)
On first look I liked SEL-751 relay as distribution feeder protection. But after reading it's features I found that there is no internal autoreclose function. How do you realize this function, I see that other relays with AR are very expensive comparing with 751's and also with similar European relays?
It is also strange for me that a relay with voltage measurements hasn't directional functionality ?!

Well, it is a matter of manufacturer policy, but I am really surprized.

I played a bit with AcSELerator Quickset - some solutions seem unusual, but anyway it is possible to start without reading the Manual first winky smile

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

At end of the day all relays has a learning curve. I have not used SEL, but they are reputed. Utility companies love them in the USA. A leading swithgear/ gen controls manufacuturer prefers GE over SEL for simplicity.

GE relays are easy to use, we use them all the time.  Their tech support is very good as alehman said. Their manuals are useless however.

I also fear demise of GE relays someday as they may drop it just because some bin counter will decide it is a great idea! GE's core business appears changes by the week. But I think we are safe with multilin for now.

 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Quote:

On first look I liked SEL-751 relay as distribution feeder protection. But after reading it's features I found that there is no internal autoreclose function. How do you realize this function, I see that other relays with AR are very expensive comparing with 751's and also with similar European relays?
It is also strange for me that a relay with voltage measurements hasn't directional functionality ?!
It looks like the SEL-751 was designed mostly for industrial feeders or utility applications where space is at a premium or cost is a big factor.
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

For inexpensive relay with auto-reclosing, I'd look at the SEL-551 series - it's under $1000.  Also the SEL-351, 451, or 651 can all do reclosing.

  

  

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

I haven't used the SEL-751 myself, but in other SEL relays it is possible to set up logic to make new functions. However setting up reclosing in the SEL-321 relay wasen't that easy. The papers on the SEL web site helped a bunch.

 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Lz5pl, I don't understand something.
Maybe this depend on your project.
You have all range of ABB, Areva, Siemens relays.
very simple,cheaper and with AR functionality.
BTW, guys, don't forgot you have two GE Multilin
Canada and Spain, aren't same.

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Sorry forgot:
And you have Vamp.
Best Regards.
Slava

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

My experience with SEL & GE Mulitlin or GE relays applied for redundancy on the same generator, feeder or transformer.  SEL always tripped first on any fault.  

GE software is OK, not as easy as Beckwith.  SEL has good warranty.  GE is GE.  I  had 75% failure rates on a group of GE relays out of Spain and recieved little support from factory. Had to abandon that applicaiton.

We use a lot of GE Multilin in our power plant designs and get OK applications support.  Great local support from SEL. But I struggle with SEL's cumbersome control language.

(Disclaimer - SEL's founder & I had same advisor in grad school and they are very very big in our local area.)
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

The SEL-751 is due to have reclosing soon, if not already.  The target date, if I recall correctly, was this month.

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

(OP)
slavag, you are right about European manufacturers. The reason I look for alternatives is not technical winky smile

From most of the posts here I understand that I could rely more on SEL support and SEL guarantee is really impressive. Thank you for your advices, friends!

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

Iz5pl (6/19/08) - I was told we can order a SEL 751A with the reclose function after 7/25.

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

SEL gets my vote.  If you want SEL representation in Eastern Europe tell them so.

You can actually e-mail Ed Schweitzer and get a response...try that with GE.  

Also, the man has his name on his product--I assume that (partly) accounts for the outstanding customer service they provide.

I don't think setting up SEL's relays is easier, or harder than any other vendor--they are all just different.  

Besides, just how many relays are you installing at a time?  Seems to me there will always be a bit of a learning curve every time you talk to a digital relay....

 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

(OP)
PhilKu, thank you for the information. I will discuss it will SEL representative - up to now I looked only on catalogues.

tlrols, I am also impressed when I see a product linked with the name of company owner. And customer support is also very strong point on my decisions - that's why I prefer automatic voltage regulators from Eberle instead of MR, for example.

------------------------
It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
 

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

I have worked with both types of relays for many years.  I agree with all of the statements made above.  

I've come across exactily 1 SEL relay that failed (out of >1000 I've tested).  SEL had a replacement relay on site the very next day and shipping boxes, etc for EZ return.

I did a 1000MW GE Turbine project years ago and 75% of GE relays were defective.  It took a call from the plant owner to the Sr. VP of GE Power to get replacement relays in 10 days.  In all fairness, these were GE USA (Malvern, PA) relays, being supported by the GE Multilin people.

If you can find the right GE Application engineers, they are responsive and do get things done.  Calling the GE Multilin number, they are more interested in issuing a issue # rather than answering the question.

One aspect of the GE UR relays that has not been addressed (which I believe is a strong point) is the modular approach to the platform design.  The UR box is basically a backplane, which allows for simple repairs, upgrades.  The powersupply for one UR relay is universal for all UR relays UR=Universal Relay).

GE SW is very nice, however as in most, when complex logic schemes are implemented, the free SW is difficult.  GE does make the "Engineer" SW, but it is USD 3k.

I'll give Multilin credit for coming up with some very innovative applications with the UR series relays.  One word of caution.  We had an instance where the FW on a 87T application was changed.  The relay failed testing after the FW upgrade.  It was a painful process getting a straight answer on what changed and why.

The obvious benefits of SEL (great support, warranty, app notes, etc) are clear.  One other SEL benefit is that they can all communicate via simple hyperterminal connection.  Anything can be accomplished via this method.  In the past it has been a nightmare for a field person to have the correct comm SW matched with relay FW versions, etc.

Nearly all newer SEL relays utilize AcSElerator SW, which is not bad.  If I recally, GE you have to build phasors, SEL does it automatic.  GE has a nice (plug and play-quick and dirty) SCADA/HMI solution.  SEL requires a 3rd party application.

Both companies are active in IEC 61850.  SEL has mirrored bits, which can do quite a lot, with much less complexity.

If I remember correctly, GE manufacturing costs are very low, so if pushed they can drop the price significantly from list price.  SEL has very competitive list prices to begin with.

I've always liked the abilty to test SEL relays with mapping out the individual relay bits.  It is an invaluable troubleshooting tool.  When the issue of who was testing who (me or the relay), the relay generally won the battle..:)

RE: Comparison between SEL and GE relay protections

smallgreek,

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.

I agree that the ability to communicate with SEL using telnet protocol can be a lifesaver, since basically any computer will have Hyperterminal, or something similar.  Not exactly "user-friendly", but it definitely works.  

Cheers,

Dave

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