×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

hard time understanding management
11

hard time understanding management

hard time understanding management

(OP)
I'm a civil engineer with about 4.5 years experience having a hard time at work that's causing emotional stress and need to seek some advice.

I work in a small civil engineering/landscape architecture firm.  The two owners of the company are both seniors and do most of the work.  They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory.  The problem that I am having is that my work ethic is constantly being question by them in the form of rude remarks.  I am upset with this because I don't have a lot of work because they don't ever delegate work for me to do.  They have a crappy way of management where they walk around and say "what are you working on?"  I find this to be very arrogant such that I want to blurt out "you tell me, you're supposed to be my manager".  I've had this problem with another engineering firm I worked for.  There is a complete lack of management.

I'm so upset I'm thinking of changing careers and I'm thinking that NO WONDER engineers are the lowest on the totum pole as far as pay scale profession-wide.  In my opinion they shouldn't have to ask me if i'm busy or when I'll be done.  If they really were half-decent managers they would pile stuff on me instead.  I asked my boss once why he didn't just pile stuff on my desk and his response was:  "because we're trying to gauge your progress".  

I've gotten to the point where I really don't care about this job or this profession.   

RE: hard time understanding management

The skills required to be a good manager are not the same skills required to be a good engineer.

Some people have both sets of skills, many have one or the other (and many neither).

It certainly sounds like your bosses now and in the past haven't been good managers.

Don't condemn the entire industry or profession for the incompetence of a few individuals.

Start looking for a new job.

RE: hard time understanding management

I would second mintjulep's comments.  Don't lump all managers  or all firms in the profession together.  I had a horrible experience at my first job out of school - so bad that I only stayed there two weeks.  I landed where I am now and I love it.  The management is great, the office environment is great.... it really is a great place to learn and grow professionally.
That being said, you are right; engineers are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to pay scales for professionals.  I made more (about 25% more) when I was building storm doors 5 years ago than I am as an engineer with 2 years of experience right now.  I wasn't insinuating that was a professional position, only trying to show how underpaid engineers are.

RE: hard time understanding management

Agreed. If they are truely making rude remarks it may be time to move on.

To speak to the "what are you working on" question. I am one of two senior engineers in a small civil/structral office with two principals. The junior staff often works on projects for both the senior engineers and the principals. So when I come in and ask what one of the junior staff is working on, it is really to discuss their workload with them as I really may not know all the tasks they have on their list. I need to be able to delegate work to the person most able to complete it.

This is different from larger offices I worked in where work only comes from one person (more like each manager has a team). In that situation the manager knows what each person is doing and can delegate work appropriately.

A good manager does not just "pile stuff" on junior staffs desks. Work needs to allocated to the proper person with the required skills to meet budget and schedule.

It sounds like you may simply be more comfortable in a larger office setting where a single manager exercises more control over your workload. Different strokes.

RE: hard time understanding management

Could it not also be seen as arrogant to think that you know more about management than your current managers and your previous one with only 4 and a half years experience?

Why is it "crappy management" to ask what you are working on? If they own the company and do most of the work as you say then they will also be trying to keep track of work load, cash flow, setting up meeting with clients for future work, ensuring all current work is on time and to standard, dealing with accountants the list goes on and on, why would they know better than you what you are doing?

Try turning it around with a positive answer something like, I am working on project X, I am waiting on some figures from Joe but I will have my presentation ready for Tuesdays meeting, would you like me to leave a copy on your desk Monday evening? I will be free to pick up more work next Thursday, would you like me to look at project Y or do you have something else you would sooner I did?
 

RE: hard time understanding management

agree with all responses so far and also communication works both ways.  If you are looking for work, ask for it.  If you are unsure what to do, go give your supervisor a status report of your work and then ask "what should I do next?"  Or, say something like - "can I go home now, I have nothing to work on?" I guarantee that either they will give you more work or find someone who can.

RE: hard time understanding management

Once you are done a task that they assigned to you, ASK for another one.  If you're waiting to receive something that's holding you up on current project, and you're not doing anything at the moment - GO ask for something else to do in the mean time.  Don't just wait for them to come around asking what you're doing.  And if they do come around asking what you're doing, tell them about all the balls you're juggling; "I'm waiting for this, I got that done, I'm still working on this, but this is bugging me...."

Impress them...show some initiative!!!

RE: hard time understanding management

(OP)
The "what are you working on" thing is not the question itself but the way it's asked.  The way I perceive it to be asked is "you damn better be working on something right now" because when I respond with "nothing" or "i'm free" they seem to get upset and play it like I'm a bad employee with no work ethic.

My opinion is that's micro-management.  They want to control everything.. they want to know exactly what I'm working on and don't want me to think freely and they don't seem to appreciate it when I choose to self-manage myself during free hours and spend a little extra time on a task because either

A)  it's hard to define "done".  nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better.

B)  There is nothing else on my desk and so I can only believe there's no work to be done.

I have managed small projects in another firm.  When doing so, I felt that it was my responsibility to properly delegate work, and I would never get upset at a subordinate especially since I know that it's my job to keep people working and efficient.  And if I called someone out in the office for not working because they weren't delegated I would know that I am only hurting the project because employees aren't very efficient at all when they are pissed off all the time.  

I think these guys are trying to run the company out of fear to make up for their lack of management ability.  Just because I'm young doesn't mean I have to let anyone destroy my self confidence.  I can easily find another job, get a raise doing so, and they can have fun re-training a new employee while I take my newly learned skills elsewhere.  Their loss.

RE: hard time understanding management

Clearly you are not happy, and I don't think will ever be happy with your managers.

Why did they hire you if they don't have a lot of work for you to do?  
 

RE: hard time understanding management

At 4.5 years, you should have the confidence to tell them you don't have anything to work on.  Apologize in advance if this sounds harsh, but if one of my guys with that much experience didn't communicate their workload back to me, I would not be happy with him either.  

Pick out a project you want to work on and tell them you want to work on it.  If they dont let you, ask them why.  If you don't think their reasoning benefits your career, then look elsewhere or discuss here with us.  Maybe you have some qualities they dont like....but you'll never know unless you assert yourself.  Yea, a better manager would sit you down in a yearly review and discuss such things, but in a small office it doesn't always happen.

There are plenty of good firms out there who pay good money.  I wouldn't give up just yet...

RE: hard time understanding management

It sounds like you've already made up your mind....

RE: hard time understanding management

3
I manage staff in addition to my own duties and its easy to fly under the radar when your boss is busy. "what are you working on?" is a common phrase for me because in my position I often am the first to be notified of time-sensitive higher priority work that needs to be done. Dumping it on someones desk does not mean that it gets done and that staff member might already be working on something time sensitive that I'm not aware of (there is some measure of autonomy for my staff members in service delivery). As a manager I have to prioritize work that gets done in the office and to do that I need to ask what tasks are currently being done.

You sound offended and perhaps its all in the delivery. A clean desk means your neat, not that you have nothing to do. Show initiative and ask for work. If I ask a staff member what they're doing and the reply is "nothing, I finished the last thing you gave me days ago" I'd be pretty disappointed as it was the staff members responsibility to notify me of project/task status and that includes "complete".

If your managers are so busy, perhaps you should learn what they are working on and see if you can learn those skills too. If the relationship isn't too damaged already, perhaps you can ask to sit in and assist your boss(es) in their current project. If they would rather you sit in front of an empty desk all day than learn to help with work that they're so busy with, you should dust off the resume.

RE: hard time understanding management

I like Krautso's view.

FWIW I'm in the middle of a crunch that will last about two months. At the start of each week (or more often) I issue a schedule for the next two months showing what I will be doing /each day/. Yet when a new request comes in I still get asked what I'm working on. That doesn't bug me particularly, at least if something is falling off the table it gives me a chance to flag problems to a nominally interested party.

So, the question itself seems innocent enough, but maybe you should be a bit more of a self starter. Certainly 4 years after graduating you should have enough experience to do that.





 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: hard time understanding management

I agree with Krautso as well. Even in the small office I work in the boss often won't know what I'm working on. He's too busy on his own projects to constantly keep tabs on me.

I have never sat around without work on my desk. I honestly could not bring myself to do so. The first time my desk was empty was maybe six months into my first (and current) job. I went looking for work to do, and found piles of it.

It's really in everyone's benifit that you look for projects when you don't have one. I'm pretty sure my actions were part of why my pay and seniority proceeded faster than others and I'm certain it's why others in the office have no problem taking projects of my desk when I'm swamped.

If you find yourself at a loss for work, just ask for more.

RE: hard time understanding management

Sometimes what people say isn't what they mean. "What are you working on now?" may simply be a conversational gambit and they are trying simply to keep in touch; appear to be open etc. (Of course, you do say it is the way they ask but that may be because they are frustrated by the failure of this gambit with you..!)

For example it is quite common for people when they meet to say "Hello, how are you?" You reply "Hello, I'm fine thanks, how about you?"
You are not expected to reply with "Well, I have  slight temperature, my feet hurt, I have a hangover and I'm having a real problem with my prostrate."

In Chinese the greeting is "Ni Hao" which means "How are you?" but if they really want to know about your medical condition that will say "Ni Hao ma" where ma is an interrogative.... much easier when there is a clear distinction between a polite opening gambit and a genuine health enquiry.

Try a different answer next time.... treat it as a conversational gambit. You never know, they may actually not want to be blinded with engineering, they just want to know that you are doing something and are happy working for them...

I could be wrong, I often am but if you've about made up your mind to move on, what have you to lose?

How about "Oh this and that, the X project for so and so and   the Y project for that another so and so. Its all going pretty smoothly and I'm looking forward to the next set of projects. Hey, great game last night, wasn't it?" (end with a question they have to answer... but if your boss is a golf fan, choose a golf game to ask about. He will want to answer that. If they really want to know about work, then they should be reading the reports you submit.  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: hard time understanding management

A manager's objective is to get the work completed. It is not to watch after employees. The employee's job is to do whatever needs to be done to meet the manager's objective. They are not there for you; you are there for them. To me it sounds like you are criticizing them for giving you too much leash and for micromanaging all in the same breath.

RE: hard time understanding management

Either you're REALLY bad at picking companies and bosses, or you've got an attitude problem.  Bad bosses are nothing new, and it's troubling that you can't distinguish between a profession and personality problems.  Do you really think that some other profession is immune from having bad bosses?  If so, you're going to be sadly disappointed.  
  

Where's your responsibility in all of this? If you're underutilized, what have YOU done about it?  In our company, the functional manager manages over 50 engineers.  He barely has time to talk to most of them, much less, keep track of whether they're 100% utilized.  

 

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: hard time understanding management

Based on your OP, would it be safe to say: you managers are technically proficient, but have no good managerial skills, and likely poor customer relation skills, hence the reason why their company is small.  Do your best to learn from this experience, and look for another job -- Remember that dealing with people of all different personality types is something that is inevitable.  When you do move on, chalk this one up to experience, and don't look back.

RE: hard time understanding management

Playing good cop and bad cop.  In twenty-five years I have had two occasions when I asked for more work and it was not appreciated.  The first was with a boss in a large company who initially took the request as personal, that others might say he could not keep his people occupied.  The second the managers deliberately slowed and avoided giving  me work in order that their departmental backlog looked bigger on paper than it actually was.  My present job is great, if I ask the boss for more he will try his best to find additional work for me.  

However, just getting upset because your bosses ask what you are working on is not the right attitude.  As many others pointed out managing people is tough and most managers cannot know everything their folks are working on. If you are done with your assigned projects or in waiting mode you need to offer to help on other projects.  If they still refuse to give you anything to do, then unless you like sitting around all day, you may want to find another job.  However, your post comes across as awfully judgemental of your bosses.  It is probably a differnt view from their shoes.    

RE: hard time understanding management

(OP)
I think that the census is that the boss has every right to be angry because I'm underutilized.  However it's also their fault because instead of confronting me in a respectful manner about it they choose to yell at me and embarrass me in front of my colleagues which both angers me and reduces my productivity by about 50%.  

Thanks for the advice I will work on that, but for now I'm angered at the rude remarks so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day.  

In the end everybody loses in an office that is unfriendly.

RE: hard time understanding management

If you are going to spend the rest of the day surfing the net, surf for jobs & dust off your resume, you might need it soon!

RE: hard time understanding management

I pretty much agree with everyone. I'd suggest using a response like "I'm just about done with X, do you have something available for me to work on?".

RE: hard time understanding management

Do the bosses just yell at you?
If they yell a everyone, then they are the problem, move on.
If they only yell at you then you have a problem and I'm not suggesting it is your fault but that since your bosses can't solve the problem between you and them you will have to. Moving on without finding the solution may mean it will crop up wherever you go and whatever discipline you follow.
Try a different approach.
Try and project yourself as keen and happy and efficient. You don't have to ask for more work directly just show you are ready to take on more work through enthusiasm.
Of course, if his is a problem between you and your bosses and no one else and your bosses and this is the same that you experienced elsewhere then you really do have a problem that you need to solve.
I suspect from what you have said about asking "why they don't just pile the work up on your desk" that maybe you need to look to your communications skills and be objective in asking if it isn't you who is a bit confrontational or abrupt.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: hard time understanding management

If you have had the same problem in 2 separate firms then I would suggest that the problem probably lies with yourself.

Mind reading is not something they teach at business school (even at Harvard) so expecting any manager to do this is unreasonable.

Every person takes different times to do different tasks so there is no way they can judge exactly when you will finish a job. They are probably worried about overloading you, so they dont want to give you a new job until you have finished the old one.

You will need to develop the people skills to work with people that you dont like, even those you hate, so this is a good time to practice it.

If I am expecting to run out of work soon I will talk to my manager and say that I am still busy, but I expect to be running out of work soon. If I am waiting on information to finish my jobs I will also explain this when I talk to my boss about fill-in work.

It is called communication.

RE: hard time understanding management

OK here is my experience and this may sound like blasphemy but I think that there should be a separation between management and engineering.  I do not believe that active engineers should be given the responsibility with managing engineer's tasks.  I believe this should be handled by a person who is solely responsible for the project/product.  Senior engineers should be responsible for working on the more difficult aspects of a project and should also be available to answer questions that junior engineers may have.  Senior engineers should also work with the management personal to quantify the tasks that need to be accomplished for a project into parts that can be given out to employees and tracked.  This project flow sheet should be available to all personal on each project to see what needs to be done and what they are currently working on.  This freedom of information will eliminate the problems that you are having.  If all of the information is published you can go to your boss and say "I have completed step 6, I see no one is working on step seven I will start on step seven, please place my name as currently working on step seven."  When you are looking for your next job make sure you ask some of these questions.  Ask the company how they track what projects you are working on.  Make sure that a project/product manager is the final authority when it comes to assigning your tasks.  This project/product manager will never be upset if you say that you are finished with a project and need more work because you will know exactly what work is available. This system may not work for everyone but you sound a lot like myself and I truly enjoy working for someone outside the engineer loop.  WARNING:  The most common problem when working for someone outside the engineer loop is that this person may have unrealistic expectation when it come to how fast you can get your assigned work completed.  If you think this is more annoying than your current problem just suck it up and deal with what you got.

Good Luck
      

Brian
SW 2007 SP 5.0

RE: hard time understanding management

I agree with Brian's comments about separation of technical and management staff, and generally believe in the model of having functional managers for technical guidance and project managers for managing workload.

I really suspect in this case, the problem is with management (despite jeffcivil2's track record of having the same problem twice).  Small consulting firms are generally run by technical experts, who usually make bad managers -- if they were good at management & dealing with people, they'd have more clients & be a bigger firm.  My experience is that smaller consulting firms almost inevitably have owners/senior staff that are very hard to work with/for (note: I've never worked for a smaller consulting firm, only worked with them on projects).

RE: hard time understanding management

I've met some (not all) senior Engs. often showing a too conservative frame of mind, and even some territorial attitudes very harmful for project advance.
They might regard the junior Eng. as a threat for the procedures they're accustomed to, or reputation. Even worse if you seem too ambitious, that's plain war.
Try offering help or asking for advice often, so they'll see you're acknowledging their experience and competencies. If it won't work, bail out.
 

RE: hard time understanding management

Management is almost certainly part of the problem.  I've never met a perfect manager though some are better than others.  Certainly yelling, teasing, demeaning etc not generally good management tools in typical engineering environment.  As for age discrimination, those of us that are on the young side tend to be a touch arrogant/overconfident, even if we don't' see it, and some older engineers react to this so make sure & take a good look at yourself before you go to far with that line of thought.

However, apart obviously from myself winky smile I've never met a perfect employee either, some very good but I don't think any perfect.  Frankly just from your posts it sounds like you're part of the problem:

Quote:

The problem that I am having is that my work ethic is constantly being question by them

Quote:

...so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day

Do I need to spell that one out?  Unless of course you have a real sense of humor and it was intentional.

Quote:

The "what are you working on" thing is not the question itself but the way it's asked.  The way I perceive it to be asked is "you damn better be working on something right now" because when I respond with "nothing" or "i'm free" they seem to get upset and play it like I'm a bad employee with no work ethic. "

They are paying you correct?  So isn't it reasonable for them to expect you to be working on something?  If one of the people I help supervise said this I wouldn't' be pleased.  As others have said, why wouldn't they ask you what you're working on so they can prioritize, plan ahead etc, are they meant to be mind readers?

Twice a week or so I get together with my direct manager and the others in my department working on a major project and we tell him what we're working on, report progress, check we have the right priorities etc.  I don't get offended by this (although sometimes the meetings drag on a lot longer than need be which is annoying).  Then once a week I have to update my overall work log & once a month I also have to do a brief status report for my managers boss.  Now this is verging on overkill but the principle like Greg put of having something like this is sound.

Maybe at the beginning of each week you could send a message saying what you worked on last week, what you finished, what you plan to work on this week and expected completion dates.

"A)  it's hard to define "done".  nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better."  Let them define done.  Take it to what you consider a reasonable level of completion and tell them you think you're done, is there anything else on the project they think you need to do, or something like this.  However after 4.5 years you should be getting at least a feel for what constitutes done, our interns only work with us 6 months and those that are any good usually can do this before they leave.

"B)  There is nothing else on my desk and so I can only believe there's no work to be done."  Seriously, you wait until they hand you something, do you expect them to wrap it for you and say pretty please too?  Be proactive, when you're getting near the end of something let them know so they can start getting you your next job.  Again, our interns usually learn this long before the 6 months is up.  

There was a similar post a while back, take a look.

Sorry if some of my and others advice sounds harsh, I know I've been on the receiving end a couple of times however, while to this day I think some of the posters were over the top there were grains of truth in there which made me take a look at myself.

It doesn't sound like your problems will be switched simply by changing employers or careers.  If you want a job where you're explicitly handed work all gift wrapped etc then don't expect to get paid as much.

If you have that much free time do you want some of my excess work to dowinky smile.
 

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: hard time understanding management

I worked in a place that acted similarly. I would run out of work, I would tell them about it, they would try to give me something eventually, they would have me charge my downtime to some active job, then come timesheet time they would be angry at me for charging the active job that I didn't work on (that they told me to charge). I never could understand why they were angry at me for not being busy, when it was their responsibility to keep the firm busy. Some folks are not only poor engineers, poor managers, but just plain old bad human beings.

RE: hard time understanding management

(OP)

I may not deserve the recognition of a more experienced person, but I do feel like I deserve respect for what I have accomplished, especially in a country lacking these skills.  And especially given that I could have instead coasted through adolescence like everyone else instead of studying.  It's just very disheartening to choose one of the hardest paths in life and my reward is a couple of A holes who are bent out to "put me in my place."

Their attitude tells me that they are simply trying to get as much possible out of me as they can.  From a business standpoint, that's fair because I'm paid quite well.  However I feel like I don't really need that type of influence to be a productive employee.  If I am not trusted to handle multiple projects at once which require my own judgment without having to constantly ask for work, then It should be obvious to you that the bosses want to control every aspect of every single project, and they want it done their way.  

This is a very controlled environment... I'm not allowed to go to meetings or participate in any of the big thinking (nor is anyone else in the company besides them).  My only conclusion is that when they were my age maybe they didn't know as much?  Or maybe they want to give the client the best service they can.  I just think it's a bad way of running a company.  P.S., they don't disclose company profits or anything.. they keep that a secret.

It's easy to say I need to be more communicative, but you have to understand how unapproachable these people are and how difficult it would be for them they are so OLD and think they know everything and for a youngin like myself to ask them to change way would be a bad scene.

I'm thinking i'm in a sweat job... Seriously.  This is a high-paying firm, but you really have to suffer.

RE: hard time understanding management

I still think you need to saddle up and assert yourself.  At least make an honest effort to create an environment that lets you grow.  If not, then you have a legit reason to leave.

These guys are NOT going to give responsibility to anyone who appears non-confident, so if you do nothing its not going to improve.

Try to not let yourself quit just to get back at these guys.  Do what's right for your career.

 

RE: hard time understanding management

Do you have any culpability in the situation or are you just a poor victim of "the man"?

RE: hard time understanding management

5
Experience and maturity and the issues here.
Here are a few hard facts.
1.  It is their company.  There are not just bosses, they are the owners.  With that comes the luxury of picking the best jobs.  You are only there to help them.

2.  The owners have a right to know what you are doing - it is their money.

3.  With four years experience, any grading system in the world would require you to work under close supervision - look up your government's definition of engineering grades.  More autonomy only kicks in after around seven.

4.   "And especially given that I could have instead coasted through adolescence like everyone else instead of study..."  Everone else?  Spare me!  Sorry, mate you're talking to the wrong crowd here.  We've all gone down that path.  Your degree is only an admission ticket - respect in an organisation has to be earned after that.

5.  "They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory..." and "It's easy to say I need to be more communicative, but you have to understand how unapproachable these people are and how difficult it would be for them they are so OLD ..."  Sounds to me that you have the age discrimation problem.

6.  "It's hard to define "done".  nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better".  This is a very telling comment that demonstrates your immaturity.  Engineering is a business.  Your bosses set it up to make money doing what they like or are capable of doing.  At some point you must stop dicking around with a project and decide to call it finished because any further effort will not appreciably affect the product - diminishing returns.  To continue tweaking, on a lump sum job would jeopardise your bosses profits; on a reimbursible project, your clients will be annoyed.

7  "P.S., they don't disclose company profits or anything.. they keep that a secret."  How dare you!  I presume that it is a private company, so it is none of your business.  Unless, of course you need to know about the company's financial situation to make sure that you are getting paid enough.

8.  "Thanks for the advice I will work on that, but for now I'm angered at the rude remarks so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day".  This forum is entitled "How to Improve Myself to Get Ahead in My Work Forum".  That attitude does not suggest self-improvement.  It is also theft.  If you felt that strongly about it you should have taken the afternoon off rather than drawing your salary for nothing.



 

RE: hard time understanding management

Quote:

...........to choose one of the hardest paths in life .......

Compared to what?

Quote:

I'm a civil engineer with about 4.5 years experience.....

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: hard time understanding management

BillBirch said it well.

If your employers are a couple of obnoxious p---ks - QUIT.

Perhaps you're member of Generation Something that thinks you're entitled to whatever you want. In that case why don't you QUIT and do some other employer a favor by gracing them with your presence?

RE: hard time understanding management

When you work in a small company or team then sometimes it's expected that you'll find work and not just sit there waiting to be given work. It's being more of a team player rather than taking the role of a 'dog's body' and doing as you're told. Take a more active interest in the work that's being carried out around you and then choose or suggest work you can do. I think that's what they're expecting when they ask 'what are you working on'.  

corus

RE: hard time understanding management

Hello all, this is my first post here, but I have been lurking for quite awhile.

Perhaps I should have started a new thread, but I think this relates enough.  I have found myself is a similar situation to jeffcivil2 in the fact that they dont keep me busy here.  On the flip side, I have asked multiple times for more projects. I have stated repeatedly to my managers and peers that things are slow and I can take on new tasks to help out, etc.  My managers have never been condescending in any way.  It even came up in my review (that overall went pretty well) that I didnt do enough projects, but I had a good work attitude.  It's been two months since my review and my workload has seemed to decrease!  I even told them in the review that I could use more stuff to do.

I find myself spending too much time surfing the web (i.e. here) and otherwise wasting both my employer's and my own valuable time.  I graduated a year ago and have been at this job almost a year exactly. Do I wait it out and see if things start coming to me? On the projects I have worked on I think I have proven myself at least enough to get more work.  I dont want to be an entry level engineer my whole life and I know can't get promoted if I dont get any work. Heck, I had three times the work load and responsiblity on my co-ops.

Outside of this thread it seems like everyone says that telling your boss that you're bored is a first class ticket to no job.  

I dont like to have nothing to do and it makes the day drag on forever.  My attitude is incredibly down and I'm frustrated to say the least. I'm not sure how much longer I can put on the "I'm happy to be here" face.  Thoughts? (Sorry for my rambling.)

RE: hard time understanding management

jeff & jut take a look at thread731-217601: Spare Time at Work it's more or less relevant.

Jut maybe a different thread would be best though it sounds like these 2 threads might be of interest to you.  There's a difference between asking for more work and saying you're bored/not challenged.  If one of our interns asks for more work we're delighted and get them more, hopefully at least some of it a bit more interesting.  When our interns say they are bored/not challenged then we'll try and challenge them often they aren't actually ready for more challenging work and so we break them (figuratively not literally).  Also usually saying they aren't challenged actually means they're bored of doing the fairly menial stuff that junior staff typically get given and think they should be the lead designer on the next project or something - not gonna happen, and who do they propose the more menial stuff get's given to, senior staff being paid twice as much?  Proove your self on the basic stuff and in all but the most dysfunctional places you'll get your chance.

BillBirch, some good points thougth I'm not sure how correct your #3 is for all situations.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: hard time understanding management

I agree with Kenat,

What you do when you are not busy is perhaps more important than what you do when you are busy.

RE: hard time understanding management

KENAT,

Thanks for your reply, and I've already browsed through the other thread you mentioned.  I posted here since I dont want to know what people are doing to kill their time.  I more or less want to understand how I should handle my management.

I agree with you about how I words that I choose (between "bored" and "wanting more work") can make a BIG difference.  I almost think that I should use the word bored, and hope that they do bury me.  I do my best work under pressure and the day FLIES.  

I understand I have to earn my stripes, but I'm not even getting the "make these copies" tasks. I'm getting the "we'll get you something in a minute" tasks.  

After reading this thread, I realized I was probaby mostly to blame, but I maintain that management hasn't held up their end either.  I was promised hands-on training and expereince on a weekly if not daily occurance from day 1. A year later, I have nothing more than a book knowledge of our products (even the ones I manage!).  I have even asked to run tests in our lab to familiarize myself with assembly and operation and was simply told to look up the assembly drawings and read about the operating parameters instead (which are not even close, but thats another thread).

I defintely think many of you are older/wiser/smarter/more mature than I.  I just hope that I have conveyed the fact that I have asked for more work and I seem to be getting no where.  (Also, how often should I ask? Daily, weekly, twice-daily?) Advice please and thank you!

RE: hard time understanding management

jut If you can't productively fill your time then you obviously need to ask for more work.  If they can't come up with anything then try and suggest something.  Maybe they don't want to spend money on lab tests or whatever but if it's just a 'you at your desk on the PC' task maybe they'll be more willing.  

I think a separate thread is called for if you want specific input.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: hard time understanding management

csd72,

I agree. But my desk is squeaky clean and I have written more MathCAD and spreadsheet programs than I can remember. Especially for calculations I may only need to run a few times and a bunch for one-time calcs. I try to not catch myself browsing the web whenever possible. But as you can see here, it still happens.

RE: hard time understanding management

(OP)
Thanks for all your help.  While you may be right on maturity, that's not really something I'm going to sulk over.  I will certainly work on keeping busy, but it won't be out of fear, but for appreciation for them not firing me already;)

cheers.

http://www.civiltips.com
A discussion forum for civil engineers

RE: hard time understanding management

I guess next time I'll start a new thread. Sorry for stepping on anyone's toes.

I kinda feel better reading this thread so far and thanks for your input.  I just have a little more to add.  

Shortly after I started a manager (of products, not people) resigned.  My supervisor knew I was underqualified but offered the position to me anyways.  I respectfully declined, but filled the role on an interim basis anyways.  When filling in handling problems and day-to-day activities, I found a number of problems with how information and procedures were handled.  When the replacement was hired, I asked, actually nearly pleaded to stay in that group and work side by side with the new manager.  I expressed that over the next few weeks I could clean up quite a few problems in that business group and help the new manager transition.  I was quickly and somewhat abrasively told no and that I needed to start training on my new products immediately.  However, the training materials have never arrived and hands-on "playing" with the products never happened.  Nor will it. That was 5 months ago.  

Now I'm kind of stuck in limbo. I "co-manage" (if thats a word) a series of products with a few other managers.  However, all the inquiries go to them and even after asking if they need help I still get no work.  I guess I'm just ranting at this point, but it makes me feel better smile.  

If my review didnt go so well I'd be worrying about keeping my job.  But now my concern is just advancing my career. Here or somewhere else? FWIW this place has a weak tuition reimbursement policy and I've gathered that they do not reward nor help PEs (with PDHs).  Thanks for reading and I appreciate the feedback.

RE: hard time understanding management

I have to say I'm in the dark here, I can't remember ever having been short of work, always too much and long hours getting it done.
It doesn't change when you go self-employed, it just gets worse.

Hence, my suggestions are things I try if i was in that situation and that includes:
How much time do you put in trying to learn from the more experienced engineers?
Have you identified any supplementary training that you could do that would be relevant to the projects you don't get?

I'm pretty sure there should be lots of constructive ways to fill time, I can't imagine Parkinson's law has been repealed...(Work expands to fill the time available).

I guess the question here is really:
"How many more experienced engineers have this problem?
Did they have this problem when they first started out?
What changed?"



 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: hard time understanding management

Re Bill's #3,  at age 28 I was running small independent programs from go to woe including budgeting, testing, modelling, fabrication, meetings with customers, reports and so on for a car company. I don't think that is atypical for the automotive industry.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: hard time understanding management

Same for defence Greg (at least in UK) I was responsible for multi million (just) $ project with sub-contractors etc in my mid 20's.

Of course both of these are probably "exempt" industry which I suppose may make a difference, also mine was a relatively small company.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: hard time understanding management

Alignment of ones personal or career goals with that of management is difficult to achieve let alone maintain.  If you find you goals no longer a sufficient match with the management and things are not likely to change then it is time to move on.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources