hard time understanding management
hard time understanding management
(OP)
I'm a civil engineer with about 4.5 years experience having a hard time at work that's causing emotional stress and need to seek some advice.
I work in a small civil engineering/landscape architecture firm. The two owners of the company are both seniors and do most of the work. They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory. The problem that I am having is that my work ethic is constantly being question by them in the form of rude remarks. I am upset with this because I don't have a lot of work because they don't ever delegate work for me to do. They have a crappy way of management where they walk around and say "what are you working on?" I find this to be very arrogant such that I want to blurt out "you tell me, you're supposed to be my manager". I've had this problem with another engineering firm I worked for. There is a complete lack of management.
I'm so upset I'm thinking of changing careers and I'm thinking that NO WONDER engineers are the lowest on the totum pole as far as pay scale profession-wide. In my opinion they shouldn't have to ask me if i'm busy or when I'll be done. If they really were half-decent managers they would pile stuff on me instead. I asked my boss once why he didn't just pile stuff on my desk and his response was: "because we're trying to gauge your progress".
I've gotten to the point where I really don't care about this job or this profession.
I work in a small civil engineering/landscape architecture firm. The two owners of the company are both seniors and do most of the work. They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory. The problem that I am having is that my work ethic is constantly being question by them in the form of rude remarks. I am upset with this because I don't have a lot of work because they don't ever delegate work for me to do. They have a crappy way of management where they walk around and say "what are you working on?" I find this to be very arrogant such that I want to blurt out "you tell me, you're supposed to be my manager". I've had this problem with another engineering firm I worked for. There is a complete lack of management.
I'm so upset I'm thinking of changing careers and I'm thinking that NO WONDER engineers are the lowest on the totum pole as far as pay scale profession-wide. In my opinion they shouldn't have to ask me if i'm busy or when I'll be done. If they really were half-decent managers they would pile stuff on me instead. I asked my boss once why he didn't just pile stuff on my desk and his response was: "because we're trying to gauge your progress".
I've gotten to the point where I really don't care about this job or this profession.





RE: hard time understanding management
Some people have both sets of skills, many have one or the other (and many neither).
It certainly sounds like your bosses now and in the past haven't been good managers.
Don't condemn the entire industry or profession for the incompetence of a few individuals.
Start looking for a new job.
RE: hard time understanding management
That being said, you are right; engineers are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to pay scales for professionals. I made more (about 25% more) when I was building storm doors 5 years ago than I am as an engineer with 2 years of experience right now. I wasn't insinuating that was a professional position, only trying to show how underpaid engineers are.
RE: hard time understanding management
To speak to the "what are you working on" question. I am one of two senior engineers in a small civil/structral office with two principals. The junior staff often works on projects for both the senior engineers and the principals. So when I come in and ask what one of the junior staff is working on, it is really to discuss their workload with them as I really may not know all the tasks they have on their list. I need to be able to delegate work to the person most able to complete it.
This is different from larger offices I worked in where work only comes from one person (more like each manager has a team). In that situation the manager knows what each person is doing and can delegate work appropriately.
A good manager does not just "pile stuff" on junior staffs desks. Work needs to allocated to the proper person with the required skills to meet budget and schedule.
It sounds like you may simply be more comfortable in a larger office setting where a single manager exercises more control over your workload. Different strokes.
RE: hard time understanding management
Why is it "crappy management" to ask what you are working on? If they own the company and do most of the work as you say then they will also be trying to keep track of work load, cash flow, setting up meeting with clients for future work, ensuring all current work is on time and to standard, dealing with accountants the list goes on and on, why would they know better than you what you are doing?
Try turning it around with a positive answer something like, I am working on project X, I am waiting on some figures from Joe but I will have my presentation ready for Tuesdays meeting, would you like me to leave a copy on your desk Monday evening? I will be free to pick up more work next Thursday, would you like me to look at project Y or do you have something else you would sooner I did?
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
Impress them...show some initiative!!!
RE: hard time understanding management
My opinion is that's micro-management. They want to control everything.. they want to know exactly what I'm working on and don't want me to think freely and they don't seem to appreciate it when I choose to self-manage myself during free hours and spend a little extra time on a task because either
A) it's hard to define "done". nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better.
B) There is nothing else on my desk and so I can only believe there's no work to be done.
I have managed small projects in another firm. When doing so, I felt that it was my responsibility to properly delegate work, and I would never get upset at a subordinate especially since I know that it's my job to keep people working and efficient. And if I called someone out in the office for not working because they weren't delegated I would know that I am only hurting the project because employees aren't very efficient at all when they are pissed off all the time.
I think these guys are trying to run the company out of fear to make up for their lack of management ability. Just because I'm young doesn't mean I have to let anyone destroy my self confidence. I can easily find another job, get a raise doing so, and they can have fun re-training a new employee while I take my newly learned skills elsewhere. Their loss.
RE: hard time understanding management
Why did they hire you if they don't have a lot of work for you to do?
RE: hard time understanding management
Pick out a project you want to work on and tell them you want to work on it. If they dont let you, ask them why. If you don't think their reasoning benefits your career, then look elsewhere or discuss here with us. Maybe you have some qualities they dont like....but you'll never know unless you assert yourself. Yea, a better manager would sit you down in a yearly review and discuss such things, but in a small office it doesn't always happen.
There are plenty of good firms out there who pay good money. I wouldn't give up just yet...
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
You sound offended and perhaps its all in the delivery. A clean desk means your neat, not that you have nothing to do. Show initiative and ask for work. If I ask a staff member what they're doing and the reply is "nothing, I finished the last thing you gave me days ago" I'd be pretty disappointed as it was the staff members responsibility to notify me of project/task status and that includes "complete".
If your managers are so busy, perhaps you should learn what they are working on and see if you can learn those skills too. If the relationship isn't too damaged already, perhaps you can ask to sit in and assist your boss(es) in their current project. If they would rather you sit in front of an empty desk all day than learn to help with work that they're so busy with, you should dust off the resume.
RE: hard time understanding management
FWIW I'm in the middle of a crunch that will last about two months. At the start of each week (or more often) I issue a schedule for the next two months showing what I will be doing /each day/. Yet when a new request comes in I still get asked what I'm working on. That doesn't bug me particularly, at least if something is falling off the table it gives me a chance to flag problems to a nominally interested party.
So, the question itself seems innocent enough, but maybe you should be a bit more of a self starter. Certainly 4 years after graduating you should have enough experience to do that.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: hard time understanding management
I have never sat around without work on my desk. I honestly could not bring myself to do so. The first time my desk was empty was maybe six months into my first (and current) job. I went looking for work to do, and found piles of it.
It's really in everyone's benifit that you look for projects when you don't have one. I'm pretty sure my actions were part of why my pay and seniority proceeded faster than others and I'm certain it's why others in the office have no problem taking projects of my desk when I'm swamped.
If you find yourself at a loss for work, just ask for more.
RE: hard time understanding management
For example it is quite common for people when they meet to say "Hello, how are you?" You reply "Hello, I'm fine thanks, how about you?"
You are not expected to reply with "Well, I have slight temperature, my feet hurt, I have a hangover and I'm having a real problem with my prostrate."
In Chinese the greeting is "Ni Hao" which means "How are you?" but if they really want to know about your medical condition that will say "Ni Hao ma" where ma is an interrogative.... much easier when there is a clear distinction between a polite opening gambit and a genuine health enquiry.
Try a different answer next time.... treat it as a conversational gambit. You never know, they may actually not want to be blinded with engineering, they just want to know that you are doing something and are happy working for them...
I could be wrong, I often am but if you've about made up your mind to move on, what have you to lose?
How about "Oh this and that, the X project for so and so and the Y project for that another so and so. Its all going pretty smoothly and I'm looking forward to the next set of projects. Hey, great game last night, wasn't it?" (end with a question they have to answer... but if your boss is a golf fan, choose a golf game to ask about. He will want to answer that. If they really want to know about work, then they should be reading the reports you submit.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
Where's your responsibility in all of this? If you're underutilized, what have YOU done about it? In our company, the functional manager manages over 50 engineers. He barely has time to talk to most of them, much less, keep track of whether they're 100% utilized.
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
However, just getting upset because your bosses ask what you are working on is not the right attitude. As many others pointed out managing people is tough and most managers cannot know everything their folks are working on. If you are done with your assigned projects or in waiting mode you need to offer to help on other projects. If they still refuse to give you anything to do, then unless you like sitting around all day, you may want to find another job. However, your post comes across as awfully judgemental of your bosses. It is probably a differnt view from their shoes.
RE: hard time understanding management
Thanks for the advice I will work on that, but for now I'm angered at the rude remarks so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day.
In the end everybody loses in an office that is unfriendly.
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
If they yell a everyone, then they are the problem, move on.
If they only yell at you then you have a problem and I'm not suggesting it is your fault but that since your bosses can't solve the problem between you and them you will have to. Moving on without finding the solution may mean it will crop up wherever you go and whatever discipline you follow.
Try a different approach.
Try and project yourself as keen and happy and efficient. You don't have to ask for more work directly just show you are ready to take on more work through enthusiasm.
Of course, if his is a problem between you and your bosses and no one else and your bosses and this is the same that you experienced elsewhere then you really do have a problem that you need to solve.
I suspect from what you have said about asking "why they don't just pile the work up on your desk" that maybe you need to look to your communications skills and be objective in asking if it isn't you who is a bit confrontational or abrupt.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: hard time understanding management
Mind reading is not something they teach at business school (even at Harvard) so expecting any manager to do this is unreasonable.
Every person takes different times to do different tasks so there is no way they can judge exactly when you will finish a job. They are probably worried about overloading you, so they dont want to give you a new job until you have finished the old one.
You will need to develop the people skills to work with people that you dont like, even those you hate, so this is a good time to practice it.
If I am expecting to run out of work soon I will talk to my manager and say that I am still busy, but I expect to be running out of work soon. If I am waiting on information to finish my jobs I will also explain this when I talk to my boss about fill-in work.
It is called communication.
RE: hard time understanding management
Good Luck
Brian
SW 2007 SP 5.0
RE: hard time understanding management
I really suspect in this case, the problem is with management (despite jeffcivil2's track record of having the same problem twice). Small consulting firms are generally run by technical experts, who usually make bad managers -- if they were good at management & dealing with people, they'd have more clients & be a bigger firm. My experience is that smaller consulting firms almost inevitably have owners/senior staff that are very hard to work with/for (note: I've never worked for a smaller consulting firm, only worked with them on projects).
RE: hard time understanding management
They might regard the junior Eng. as a threat for the procedures they're accustomed to, or reputation. Even worse if you seem too ambitious, that's plain war.
Try offering help or asking for advice often, so they'll see you're acknowledging their experience and competencies. If it won't work, bail out.
RE: hard time understanding management
However, apart obviously from myself
Do I need to spell that one out? Unless of course you have a real sense of humor and it was intentional.
They are paying you correct? So isn't it reasonable for them to expect you to be working on something? If one of the people I help supervise said this I wouldn't' be pleased. As others have said, why wouldn't they ask you what you're working on so they can prioritize, plan ahead etc, are they meant to be mind readers?
Twice a week or so I get together with my direct manager and the others in my department working on a major project and we tell him what we're working on, report progress, check we have the right priorities etc. I don't get offended by this (although sometimes the meetings drag on a lot longer than need be which is annoying). Then once a week I have to update my overall work log & once a month I also have to do a brief status report for my managers boss. Now this is verging on overkill but the principle like Greg put of having something like this is sound.
Maybe at the beginning of each week you could send a message saying what you worked on last week, what you finished, what you plan to work on this week and expected completion dates.
"A) it's hard to define "done". nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better." Let them define done. Take it to what you consider a reasonable level of completion and tell them you think you're done, is there anything else on the project they think you need to do, or something like this. However after 4.5 years you should be getting at least a feel for what constitutes done, our interns only work with us 6 months and those that are any good usually can do this before they leave.
"B) There is nothing else on my desk and so I can only believe there's no work to be done." Seriously, you wait until they hand you something, do you expect them to wrap it for you and say pretty please too? Be proactive, when you're getting near the end of something let them know so they can start getting you your next job. Again, our interns usually learn this long before the 6 months is up.
There was a similar post a while back, take a look.
Sorry if some of my and others advice sounds harsh, I know I've been on the receiving end a couple of times however, while to this day I think some of the posters were over the top there were grains of truth in there which made me take a look at myself.
It doesn't sound like your problems will be switched simply by changing employers or careers. If you want a job where you're explicitly handed work all gift wrapped etc then don't expect to get paid as much.
If you have that much free time do you want some of my excess work to do
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
I may not deserve the recognition of a more experienced person, but I do feel like I deserve respect for what I have accomplished, especially in a country lacking these skills. And especially given that I could have instead coasted through adolescence like everyone else instead of studying. It's just very disheartening to choose one of the hardest paths in life and my reward is a couple of A holes who are bent out to "put me in my place."
Their attitude tells me that they are simply trying to get as much possible out of me as they can. From a business standpoint, that's fair because I'm paid quite well. However I feel like I don't really need that type of influence to be a productive employee. If I am not trusted to handle multiple projects at once which require my own judgment without having to constantly ask for work, then It should be obvious to you that the bosses want to control every aspect of every single project, and they want it done their way.
This is a very controlled environment... I'm not allowed to go to meetings or participate in any of the big thinking (nor is anyone else in the company besides them). My only conclusion is that when they were my age maybe they didn't know as much? Or maybe they want to give the client the best service they can. I just think it's a bad way of running a company. P.S., they don't disclose company profits or anything.. they keep that a secret.
It's easy to say I need to be more communicative, but you have to understand how unapproachable these people are and how difficult it would be for them they are so OLD and think they know everything and for a youngin like myself to ask them to change way would be a bad scene.
I'm thinking i'm in a sweat job... Seriously. This is a high-paying firm, but you really have to suffer.
RE: hard time understanding management
These guys are NOT going to give responsibility to anyone who appears non-confident, so if you do nothing its not going to improve.
Try to not let yourself quit just to get back at these guys. Do what's right for your career.
RE: hard time understanding management
RE: hard time understanding management
Here are a few hard facts.
1. It is their company. There are not just bosses, they are the owners. With that comes the luxury of picking the best jobs. You are only there to help them.
2. The owners have a right to know what you are doing - it is their money.
3. With four years experience, any grading system in the world would require you to work under close supervision - look up your government's definition of engineering grades. More autonomy only kicks in after around seven.
4. "And especially given that I could have instead coasted through adolescence like everyone else instead of study..." Everone else? Spare me! Sorry, mate you're talking to the wrong crowd here. We've all gone down that path. Your degree is only an admission ticket - respect in an organisation has to be earned after that.
5. "They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory..." and "It's easy to say I need to be more communicative, but you have to understand how unapproachable these people are and how difficult it would be for them they are so OLD ..." Sounds to me that you have the age discrimation problem.
6. "It's hard to define "done". nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better". This is a very telling comment that demonstrates your immaturity. Engineering is a business. Your bosses set it up to make money doing what they like or are capable of doing. At some point you must stop dicking around with a project and decide to call it finished because any further effort will not appreciably affect the product - diminishing returns. To continue tweaking, on a lump sum job would jeopardise your bosses profits; on a reimbursible project, your clients will be annoyed.
7 "P.S., they don't disclose company profits or anything.. they keep that a secret." How dare you! I presume that it is a private company, so it is none of your business. Unless, of course you need to know about the company's financial situation to make sure that you are getting paid enough.
8. "Thanks for the advice I will work on that, but for now I'm angered at the rude remarks so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day". This forum is entitled "How to Improve Myself to Get Ahead in My Work Forum". That attitude does not suggest self-improvement. It is also theft. If you felt that strongly about it you should have taken the afternoon off rather than drawing your salary for nothing.
RE: hard time understanding management
Compared to what?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: hard time understanding management
If your employers are a couple of obnoxious p---ks - QUIT.
Perhaps you're member of Generation Something that thinks you're entitled to whatever you want. In that case why don't you QUIT and do some other employer a favor by gracing them with your presence?
RE: hard time understanding management
corus
RE: hard time understanding management
Perhaps I should have started a new thread, but I think this relates enough. I have found myself is a similar situation to jeffcivil2 in the fact that they dont keep me busy here. On the flip side, I have asked multiple times for more projects. I have stated repeatedly to my managers and peers that things are slow and I can take on new tasks to help out, etc. My managers have never been condescending in any way. It even came up in my review (that overall went pretty well) that I didnt do enough projects, but I had a good work attitude. It's been two months since my review and my workload has seemed to decrease! I even told them in the review that I could use more stuff to do.
I find myself spending too much time surfing the web (i.e. here) and otherwise wasting both my employer's and my own valuable time. I graduated a year ago and have been at this job almost a year exactly. Do I wait it out and see if things start coming to me? On the projects I have worked on I think I have proven myself at least enough to get more work. I dont want to be an entry level engineer my whole life and I know can't get promoted if I dont get any work. Heck, I had three times the work load and responsiblity on my co-ops.
Outside of this thread it seems like everyone says that telling your boss that you're bored is a first class ticket to no job.
I dont like to have nothing to do and it makes the day drag on forever. My attitude is incredibly down and I'm frustrated to say the least. I'm not sure how much longer I can put on the "I'm happy to be here" face. Thoughts? (Sorry for my rambling.)
RE: hard time understanding management
Jut maybe a different thread would be best though it sounds like these 2 threads might be of interest to you. There's a difference between asking for more work and saying you're bored/not challenged. If one of our interns asks for more work we're delighted and get them more, hopefully at least some of it a bit more interesting. When our interns say they are bored/not challenged then we'll try and challenge them often they aren't actually ready for more challenging work and so we break them (figuratively not literally). Also usually saying they aren't challenged actually means they're bored of doing the fairly menial stuff that junior staff typically get given and think they should be the lead designer on the next project or something - not gonna happen, and who do they propose the more menial stuff get's given to, senior staff being paid twice as much? Proove your self on the basic stuff and in all but the most dysfunctional places you'll get your chance.
BillBirch, some good points thougth I'm not sure how correct your #3 is for all situations.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: hard time understanding management
What you do when you are not busy is perhaps more important than what you do when you are busy.
RE: hard time understanding management
Thanks for your reply, and I've already browsed through the other thread you mentioned. I posted here since I dont want to know what people are doing to kill their time. I more or less want to understand how I should handle my management.
I agree with you about how I words that I choose (between "bored" and "wanting more work") can make a BIG difference. I almost think that I should use the word bored, and hope that they do bury me. I do my best work under pressure and the day FLIES.
I understand I have to earn my stripes, but I'm not even getting the "make these copies" tasks. I'm getting the "we'll get you something in a minute" tasks.
After reading this thread, I realized I was probaby mostly to blame, but I maintain that management hasn't held up their end either. I was promised hands-on training and expereince on a weekly if not daily occurance from day 1. A year later, I have nothing more than a book knowledge of our products (even the ones I manage!). I have even asked to run tests in our lab to familiarize myself with assembly and operation and was simply told to look up the assembly drawings and read about the operating parameters instead (which are not even close, but thats another thread).
I defintely think many of you are older/wiser/smarter/more mature than I. I just hope that I have conveyed the fact that I have asked for more work and I seem to be getting no where. (Also, how often should I ask? Daily, weekly, twice-daily?) Advice please and thank you!
RE: hard time understanding management
I think a separate thread is called for if you want specific input.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: hard time understanding management
I agree. But my desk is squeaky clean and I have written more MathCAD and spreadsheet programs than I can remember. Especially for calculations I may only need to run a few times and a bunch for one-time calcs. I try to not catch myself browsing the web whenever possible. But as you can see here, it still happens.
RE: hard time understanding management
cheers.
http://www.civiltips.com
A discussion forum for civil engineers
RE: hard time understanding management
I kinda feel better reading this thread so far and thanks for your input. I just have a little more to add.
Shortly after I started a manager (of products, not people) resigned. My supervisor knew I was underqualified but offered the position to me anyways. I respectfully declined, but filled the role on an interim basis anyways. When filling in handling problems and day-to-day activities, I found a number of problems with how information and procedures were handled. When the replacement was hired, I asked, actually nearly pleaded to stay in that group and work side by side with the new manager. I expressed that over the next few weeks I could clean up quite a few problems in that business group and help the new manager transition. I was quickly and somewhat abrasively told no and that I needed to start training on my new products immediately. However, the training materials have never arrived and hands-on "playing" with the products never happened. Nor will it. That was 5 months ago.
Now I'm kind of stuck in limbo. I "co-manage" (if thats a word) a series of products with a few other managers. However, all the inquiries go to them and even after asking if they need help I still get no work. I guess I'm just ranting at this point, but it makes me feel better
If my review didnt go so well I'd be worrying about keeping my job. But now my concern is just advancing my career. Here or somewhere else? FWIW this place has a weak tuition reimbursement policy and I've gathered that they do not reward nor help PEs (with PDHs). Thanks for reading and I appreciate the feedback.
RE: hard time understanding management
It doesn't change when you go self-employed, it just gets worse.
Hence, my suggestions are things I try if i was in that situation and that includes:
How much time do you put in trying to learn from the more experienced engineers?
Have you identified any supplementary training that you could do that would be relevant to the projects you don't get?
I'm pretty sure there should be lots of constructive ways to fill time, I can't imagine Parkinson's law has been repealed...(Work expands to fill the time available).
I guess the question here is really:
"How many more experienced engineers have this problem?
Did they have this problem when they first started out?
What changed?"
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: hard time understanding management
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: hard time understanding management
Of course both of these are probably "exempt" industry which I suppose may make a difference, also mine was a relatively small company.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: hard time understanding management