adding friction modifiers to motor oil
adding friction modifiers to motor oil
(OP)
Hello all,
I have become aware of the removal of some elements from motor oils to help reduce emissions. The elements such as zinc and magnanese have seemed to help flat tappet to cam lobe wear in pushrod engines, particularly in high spring pressure racing engines. Does anyone know if it possible to purchase these elements individually and add them back into the oil? Also does anyone have any knowledge with regards to the amount or percentage to add and in what form i.e. powder, liquid etc.?
-Good day
I have become aware of the removal of some elements from motor oils to help reduce emissions. The elements such as zinc and magnanese have seemed to help flat tappet to cam lobe wear in pushrod engines, particularly in high spring pressure racing engines. Does anyone know if it possible to purchase these elements individually and add them back into the oil? Also does anyone have any knowledge with regards to the amount or percentage to add and in what form i.e. powder, liquid etc.?
-Good day





RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Obviously, you can buy anything...This has been one of my latest peeves and at present, with the available off the shelf motor oils, including synthetics, I don't recommend adding "snake oil" to "improve" whatever. Perhaps in the future, maybe the immediate future, it may be advisable...not yet, though.
For a race engine you should be using one of the quality lubricants engineered for racing...Often a bit more expensive and sometimes difficult to find off the shelf at Wall Mart or such...That's why we have the internet (no sales tax?)...What's your race engine worth?
I use Redline but many other acceptable brands are out there.
Rod
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Rod
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
generally speaking the effect might be that some capability of the oil might be slightly improved - and not necessarily a capability that needs improvement. at the same time the various additives may well influence eacht other - and that may worsen other capabilities in the process to a level below that is actually needed.
although modern lowsaps engine oils do contain less metallic additives then they used to do, they have to meet higher standards in terms of antiwear and antioxidant protection then former engine oil specifications - and they do! there therefore is no need to add some form of snake oil.
as far as "friction reducers" are concerned: their effect in an engine oil is usually only marginal - they have only effect during startup and when shutting down the engine since they may influence the friction in the bearings in say the left part of the Stribeck curve. that may result in some reduction in fuel consumption in cars that are driven over short distances only, but when the everage triplength gets longer their effect is negligible
you generally will be far better off using the oil that meets the appropriate API or ACEA classification
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Anti-wear additives are incorporated into engine oils to control valve train wear. Zinc does not have anti-wear properties, but is a convenient delivery device for phosphates that do when chemically compounded into oil soluble zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (ZDDP). Phosphate films formed from ZDDP typically have _higher_ coefficients of friction, so 'zinc' in motor oil terms is a pretty poor 'friction modifier'.
Compounds containing Molybdenum and Sulfur, under heat and pressure decompose to MoS2 which is a very effective friction reducer and also has anti-wear properties, so compounds such as molydemum dithiocarbonates (MoDTC) can function as both anti-wear and friction modifier additives.
High performance racing engines are not a typical application for passenger car motor oils, so those 'off-the-shelf' products may or may not give satisfactory performance. Raw additives direct from the manufacturer are usually sold in drum quantity minimums making it impractical for individuals to brew their own. As evelrod points out there are are a number of companies offering products specifically for racing applications, and are usually very helpful in recommending their appropriate product for your hardware. If you go that route they will probably expect to be rewarded with more than $1.79/qt for that service, but then you can spend your time tuning the motor for speed rather than formulating an oil for durability.
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Oh....perhaps that's "too" long ago?
Most racing oil goes for something like $7/qt and up. My Mini engine cost me something close to $15k and the Lotus $24K so it takes no great thought to use the best oil I can buy.
Rod
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
There seem to be alot of low mileage failures that can be attributed to lubrication. Just an opinion.
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
engines can fail for a lot of reasons, the main reasons being overheating due to lack of coolant or oil starvation due to lack of lubricant in the sump. both reasons have nothing to do with the quality or properties of the fluids involved, but are the result of blunt ignorance on the driver's side who does not occasionally check whether the fluids that should be there are there indeed.
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
As for oil "additives" I have a favorite, guaranteed to reduce engine wear from startup. an oil accumulator :)
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
For a street driven car? As a pre oiler it would be nice as long as you can justify the expense and difficulty of installation and service. I've got a lot of miles on cars and tow trucks without ever having an oil related problem. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to check oil levels and see that normal service is taken care of.
dicer...Low mileage failures? I'm around cars pretty much 24/7 and I haven't seen a low mileage failure in a long, long time. Even then, the last failure was an owner/operator failure that precipitated the engine stoppage. My wife's Lincoln is doing fine at 155,000 miles on 5W-20 Motorcraft syn blend (dealer serviced since new).
Rod
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
I gotta say, cite?
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
but I must ask what extra service should be performed on an accumulator?
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
The extra step of draining and refilling at the regular service intervals and the normal regular inspection of oil level in the sump (in the event of regulator failure...it happens) and at least daily inspection of the pressure setting and oil lines as these things tend to be remotely located in often difficult to access locations. Nothing that any do it yourselfer could not handle. But the average Joe or Jane?
I agree that it would probably add to the life of the bearings if properly installed, serviced and, used...Just a bit too much for me, and I use them on both our race cars!
Rod
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Race cars are a different case as oil surge can uncover the pick up and cause catastrophic failures in an instant.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Naturally, the variant specifically for diesel has fewer certifications. No Porsche, A3-98, API SM approvals. Probably has SOME friction modifiers and wear additives.
In conjunction with their oil I use their MoS2 (not MoDTC or other) oil additive.
They also make a semisynthetic (they claim has the lowest wear rates of all their lubricants) with MoS2 in since formulation. Its approvals are: "ACEA A3-98/B3-98 ; API SJ/CF/SH/CF/EC".
You won't see API SM or SL (and other norms that purport to regulate against catalytic converter contamination) certified oils with metallic antiwear and friction modifier additives.
I'd love to see manufacturers start fitting electric oil pumps and oil preheaters to their production cars as standard to reduce turn-over wear to a minimum but I won't hold my breath. They'd sooner make slushboxes standard.
They're a german oil brewery and their products, like most things in Europe, are an arm and a leg more expensive than even the priciest oils in the US though not that much more expensive than other Euro brand oils.
I won't name them so as not to be seen as promoting commercially.
RE: adding friction modifiers to motor oil
Dear Sir,
thank you very much for your email, dtd. 28th July 2008 and for your interest in ********** products.
Our ************************** 5W-40, from part-no. 1340 ore part-no. 1341 - 5 liters, is a fully synthetic motor oil and SAE group IV.
If you have any more question, don´t hesitate to contact us again!
With best regards from Germany!
i.A.
Dietmar Schmid
***** **** GmbH
Anwendungstechnik/Application Engineering
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4
D-89081 Ulm-Lehr