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pisimatza (Electrical) (OP)
3 Jun 08 4:19
I want to learn what is a lockout relay-86.
Is just equivalent to a reset button?
Thank U.
Helpful Member!  raghun (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 5:40
pisimatza,
Do you believe that it could be justa reset button (afterall it is not called Reset relay)?
Lockout relay is what its name truly suggests - relay meant to lock the functioning of the circuit breaker out (after the breaker opens on a fault).
The lockout relay needs to be reset (through reset push button on the relay panel, through remote reset from the SCADA/SCS or through mechanical lever attached to the relay) by the operator/engineer before he can go ahead and energise the circuit. This is a time tested way of checking that the operator / engineer has consciously made the decision (after duly investigating the cause of trip) to energise the circuit.  
Helpful Member!  cranky108 (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 10:03
The lockout relay is a latching device that, besides mutplying contacts, is intended to make it difficult to reset. Our intent was always to make someone go to the substation, and look at things. The operator in the bunker could not restore what was locked out without sending someone to the substation.(86LO)

However, this is different from a reclose lockout, which only latches so that there can be no more recloses. The operator in the bunker can restore the circuit remotely. (79LO)


 
Helpful Member!  oldfieldguy (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 11:56
WE use lockout relays for the operation of protected devices that indicate serious electrical faults.

For instance, in the case of a large motor, the time-overcurrent or thermal (RTD) elements do NOT trip the 86 relay.  The operator (this is an industrial facility) is allowed to attempt a restart after determining the cause of the problem.

Instantaneous overcurrent or motor differential operations operate the lockout relay.  The operators are specifically instructed that they cannot reset the lockout relay.  Resetting the lockout relay is ONLY done after a qualified electrician has investigated the operation and cleared the unit for restart.

We still specify a discrete electromechanical lockout relay as opposed to a separate reset button on a microprocessor-based multifunction relay, specifically because there is no doubt in the mind of the operator that if that big handle is turned, they MUST call an electrician to investigate.

old field guy

Helpful Member!  slavag (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 13:27
Hi.
Raghun, it's second time when I see "through remote reset from the SCADA/SCS".
Lot of companies (99.99%) work according to Cranky108 and Oldfieldguy.
It's intresting point, where are you use this option?
Best Regards.
Slava
pisimatza (Electrical) (OP)
3 Jun 08 15:34
Thank you all
Oldfieldguy, good explanation. The RTD or Thermal relay does not trip on a serious fault(just on heating), so the big handle from lockout relay will not turn.
It seems to be a not expensive relay, isn't it? I mean cannot cost more then 2-300 $?  
slavag (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 15:44
Hi.
It's depend: how contacts you need and what is a make/break current is request.
Siemens have a good relay ( Areva and ABB too).
Please don't forgot, if you need a simple solution ( not a handele reset or bistable relay) you can build this fron every relay with N.O contact and some push button in series to coil).
Good Luck.
Slava
nightfox1925 (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 17:04
pisimatza, if your thermal relay NO contact is wired in series with the lockout relay coil, then that "big handle" will definitley turn.

For temperature protection, it is customary to have 1st and 2nd stage overtemperature. The 1st stage will send off an alarm and the 2nd stage can be wired either to directly trip the breaker or trip via lockout relay.

The lockout relay should also be supervised by a 74 relay (similar to AREVA MVAX 12) to monitor lockout relay coil either in the trip or closed position.

cranky108 (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 17:42
I guess I've never seen a reset pushbutton, other than one set up on a protective relay. Most of the lockouts I've seen are either GE or Electroswitch where ther have a handle for a reset (And lights for coil monitor).

What you are describing sounds like a latching relay.
 
nightfox1925 (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 17:45
Isn't the lockout relays with electrically reset button is similar to ABB Bistable relays?

oldfieldguy (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 22:50
The main thing we accomplish with the 86 relay in our protection circuits is to differentiate between serious faults and less serious overloads.

In addition to tripping contacts it is customary to use a set of contacts from the 86 relay to block the close circuit also, making sure that the breaker or contactor will not close until the 86 is reset.  This is especially needed where starting or closing can be initiated from a remote location.

Also, another set of contacts from the 86 can be used to signal that it has operated.

My recent US projects have used Electroswitch and GE devices.  I personally prefer the old-style GE "HEA" series, mainly because I like the hefty, visible (if you remove the cover) contacts.

old field guy

slavag (Electrical)
3 Jun 08 23:04
Hi.
Yes, true LOR is Electroswitch and GE .
Big and expensive.
Today many companies prefered bistable relays--latching relay with reset button, possible install on the DIN rail, easier change.
Regards.
Slava
Helpful Member!  NAZ55 (Electrical)
4 Jun 08 22:54
Slava,

Electroswitch also makes LOR-ER which can be electronically reset remotely. Check out their new LOR-ER, which also has a serial/ RS-485 connection.

 
kingtutley (Electrical)
5 Jun 08 11:32
I have wondered about the 86 relay functionas well. Sadly I never get to see the actual equipment I am engineering for.

I understand the 86 keeps the breaker from being closed, thereby ensuring (hopefully) it is not being closed into a fault. My question would be, HOW does it do this? Is it a physical block to the breaker closing mechanism? Is it a set of contacts within the breaker in the closing scheme? How does it block the closing of the breaker?
slavag (Electrical)
5 Jun 08 11:44
Hi.
Usually it's "CB block close" contact is wiried in series to close coil.
As saied above, not all trip is pick block close function.
For example: thermal, undervoltage, etc.
Best Regards.
Slava
slavag (Electrical)
5 Jun 08 11:51
Zazmat, thanks a lot for the information.
Best Regards.
Slava
pisimatza (Electrical) (OP)
7 Aug 08 2:57
I am back with this:
One 86 relay can be used for more than one circuit?
Let's asume 5 circuits.
I mean, if 1 trip is detected, all output contacts will open, and circuits of all 5 closing coils of circuit breakers will be open?
This will not be a problem, i guess.
Thanks.
slavag (Electrical)
7 Aug 08 4:16
No problem,
For example generator 86 relay send open command
to CB, field breaker, turbine, boiler, etc.
Trafo with multi breakers- same.
Best Regards.
Slava
 
pisimatza (Electrical) (OP)
7 Aug 08 7:13
Slava,

86 relay sends "Open" command?
I thought it sends "NO close until reset" command?

Regards
slavag (Electrical)
7 Aug 08 9:07
Hi.
Of course, 86 (LOR) is used for the "block closing contacts" and for the aux. trip contacts.
Regards.
Slava
jghrist (Electrical)
7 Aug 08 9:22

Quote:

86 relay sends "Open" command?
I thought it sends "NO close until reset" command?
Relay does not "send" commands.  It has several normally open (NO) and several normally closed (NC) contacts.  You put a NO contact between the dc+ bus and the breaker trip coil so that when the 86 trips, it trips the breaker.  You put a NC contact between the closing contacts and the breaker close coil so that when the 86 trips, the closing contacts cannot close the breaker (locked out).
 
cranky108 (Electrical)
7 Aug 08 12:09
Neet a lockout with communications abilities.

I still perfer hard wired.
raghun (Electrical)
8 Aug 08 8:40
slavag,

Sorry for delay. I haven't been on forum for a few days.

I work for one utility and the electrical reset from SCADA control room is the practice here for 132kV OHLs.
The operator in SCADA control room has discretionary powers to reclose (one time) the tripped line after resetting the 86 from SCADA.
slavag (Electrical)
8 Aug 08 15:52
Thank you Raghun.
I work now for some utility too and first time see this option of electrical reset from SCADA.
Regards.
Slava
c4xpower (Electrical)
11 Aug 08 3:05
Hi all,

In our utility we use Alstom MVAJ type protection lockout relay, mainly for transformer protections eg bucholtz. Relay uses N/O contacts to trip CB, and N/C contacts to break the closing supply. These are hand reset relays, but do use a spare N/O contact to signal SCADA that protection is locked out. Due to the nature of the faults involving transformers, you would never want to reclose without first carrying out a site investigation therefore these relays are hand reset only.
oldfieldguy (Electrical)
11 Aug 08 8:47
I am rather partial to the GE "HEA" series of auxiliary relays.  They trip electrically and are reset manually.  You can order them with a number of different configurations aof contact genders (NO/NC) and numbers of each.  I particularly like the fact that by removing a cover held in place by one thumbscrew, you can SEE which contacts are opened and closed at a particular time.

Electroswitch makes a common version also, but the contacts are enclosed.  Electroswitch makes versions with electrical trip AND reset.

old field guy

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