Disturbance recorder in new systems
Disturbance recorder in new systems
(OP)
Dear All.
Today all newer relays are include disturbance recorder.
I read many documents about used or not dedicated disturbance recorder.
What is your expirience? What is your opinion?
BTW, same for the digital event recorder.
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards.
Slava
Today all newer relays are include disturbance recorder.
I read many documents about used or not dedicated disturbance recorder.
What is your expirience? What is your opinion?
BTW, same for the digital event recorder.
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards.
Slava






RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
Modern relays are adequate for "event" recordings not for continuous monitoring or even disturbance recordings.
There may be many "disturbance" events that could affect the loads, but not necessarily operate the protective relays. I am sure you can setup data logger on many digital relays, but I would hate to mess with protective relays to retrieve power quality related data.
But they are certainly capable of doing the job.
Dedicated PQM are also expensive and take up valuable space.
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
In my opinion it is necessary to use disturbance recorders, no matter what relays you are using. Recorders are more powerful than relays and can be used for power quality measurements also. I personally like Areva's Bitronics - no, I don't work for Areva
Regards
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
The digital relays have fairly limited memory for storage of waveforms and events. The stand-alone units are much more capable and provide an independent device to monitor the power system.
If you use only the relays, the system monitoring is totally dependent on the A/D converters and algorithms in the relays. I have seen cases where a digital relay became seriously confused dealing with transient events leading to misoperation of the relay. This is difficult to sort out if the only fault data was captured by the same relay that misoperated.
We don't see DFRs in distribution substations or industrial facilities, but we do use separate power quality meters in most cases.
Cheers,
Dave
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
I have a client that has installed expensive PQM on input and output of a 50kVA UPS!!!
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
Thank a lot for your opinions and ideas. It's very helpful.
Last years we used DR from relay only, with connection to SCADA with automatic uploader option ( by event or by time cycle). But few times ( and of course in the critical cases
Thanks again.
P.S. Yuma, thanks for the recommendation.
I check now option of Sherlog of KoCos, but see in future.
Best Regards.
Slava
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
RBulsara:
"Cost is relative so without knowing the application and what information you want to collect and analyse, the rest is speculation.
I have a client that has installed expensive PQM on input and output of a 50kVA UPS!!! "
I would like add this type of recorder only ( in the first step) to systems with utilities-local generators with parallel and island mode operation, decoupling and load shedding system and maybe with some HBT systems for the motor bus. And record only voltage/frequency data on the HV and MV levels.
Best Regards.
Slava
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
Thank you for clarifying the application. While it should be your decision, but it seems that the cost of a dedicated PQM can be justified in such an application.
Rafiq
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
Rafiq: isn't my decition, I only recommend to customer.
OK.
I read again few documents and recommend this solution to my customer. He would like check this option.
I found in the google few good DFR's ( I hope)
Kokos- Sherlog
Qualitrol- BEN600
Ametek - TR-100
Weis- FR100
REM76 recommended Eaton, but I didn't found it.
According to avalible data, those DFR's are suitble for our application ( up to 32 AI in one box. memory, triggers, combination with DSR and PQM, etc.).
We need only one box solution, with GPS synchronization and connection to remote HMI via Etherner.
Do you someone have expereince with those DFR's?
Do you recommend me some others?
Thanks in advance.
Best Regards.
Slava
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
Each unit has trending, DFR(2), and disturbance recorders(2) and lots of memory.(up to 128 MB). Ethernet,RS485, RS232 (com ports are configurable and totally independent) Modbus on one, DNP on the other, and DNP or Modbus on IP at the same time.
We use them on gen's, transmission lines, distrubution feeders(in tandem with protective relays).
Support and quality are absolutely first rate.
No, I don't work for Areva/Bitronics either.
RE: Disturbance recorder in new systems
I have replied several days ago on this topic, but it seems something went wrong.
I'll try again.
Integrated disturbance recorders in the protective relays are a must. The fault recorder is the most important information for post-fault analysis. You really can see what "the relay" has seen and have the possibility to analyze the behavior or to change settings, if it was maloperation due to settings problem.
Substation disturbance recorders are also useful, but to my experience NOT for the relay engineer. The amount of information they can give is limited (most of the internal relay signals are not available there), and you cannot use them for any fault analysis, as the station disturbance recorder is not connected to relay's CTs and VTs.
Sometimes it is good to double check.
If I had my substation, I would not invest on a substation recorder. What is the purpose for it?