Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Is electric powered transpo the answer?
(OP)
I have read many things here where folks appear to think highly of electrical transportation. I don't think much of it because the energy needed is much higher than traditional solutions. On another thread, it was reported that only 15-20% of the input energy at an electrical power plant was used at the final destination (e.g. the fuel content at the electrical plant contained 5 to 6.7 times the energy used in the home). This is because they are unable to capture all the energy in the fuel, there are productiion losses such as friction in the generators and turbines, and there are transmission losses. I do not know what the ratio is for petroleum IC engines, but I am under the impression it is much better than this. Are there any automotive engineers here that can provide some comparisons? Thanks.





RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
figure 40% for a small diesel
hard to put a nuke plant under the hood in either case.. .electrical works better for that
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Overhauling the transportation system would probably be the best way to "go green" have support Al Gore, but that would require politicians to actually do something useful to improve infrastructure, as apposed to telling people to drive hybrids while they continue to do nothing and line their pockets with public funds.
Maybe I am having a bad Friday....
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Until then for personal transport I'm not sure how much sense it makes.
Of course same goes for hydrogen.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Carnt Efficiency = (Th-Tc) / Tc
Where Th and Tc are the heat source and heat sink temperautres respectively.
This does not include any friction... just a thermodynamic fact (Something to do wtih entropy) that you have to reject a lot of heat to your condensor (wasted heat) in order to keep the cycle running. A typical nuke plant puts twice as energy (heat) into the cooling reservoir as it does into the generator (mechanical work into the generator before converted to electrical).
Then there are the traditional more easily understandable losses due to friction in tubine, generator, electrical losses in generator, transformers, lines, etc.
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
That is just looking at input/output quantities of motors vs engines... doesn't take into account upstream inefficiencies.
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
In the end, all of these issues are pretty much moot. With a bunch of assumptions about energy required to transport gasoline to stations, mechanical and thermodynamic effeciencies of electric plants and motor transport; vehicles on the road represent something like a 1,200,000 MW load--does anyone think that we have anything like that much spare generating capacity or the werewithal to build it? According to the EIA, summer electric-generating capacity in the US is 990,000 MW, so this is at least doubling capacity. In 2006 the US added 12,000 MW of capacity.
"Going electric" is kind of like the transition to a hydrogen economy--the practical and engineering hurdles of the real problem far exceed our ability to solve them with today's technology. Will technology evolve to provide as-yet undreamed of solutions? Probably, but when? Linear thinking is just not going to solve the truly horrible energy problems that have been on the horizon for 50 years, but didn't get much attention until the news media got their teeth into the dual story of "Global Warming" and "High fuel prices".
Energy is so cheep in the world today that without these manufactured crises no one would be talking about alternatives. If you don't think that energy is cheep, realize that up until about 1800 a family would expend about 1/2 of their waking life in the acquisition of energy sources (chopping fire wood, transporting it, cleaning out the ashes, etc. and they mostly went to sleep at dark), today it is on the order of 1/8 in the developed countries and still very close to 1/2 in many "developing countries". Cheep energy brings many fair and wonderful things, but take it for granted and waste it at your peril.
David
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
... and the weight of fuel. An electric train carries none.
- Steve
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
What I want is for the very real power of supply and demand, economics, to make this happen. The less the gov't interferes, the quicker the economic reality will start to hit home. People already claim to be choosing between fueling their SUV's and buying food; while I have a hard time believing there is any question which to choose there, maybe the light bulb will come on and these people will change their ways in the near future.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Many tasks can be done very well via telecommuting (in my business I typically don't leave my home 4 days a week on average), collaboration over telephone lines, e-mail, and net meeting are all less effective than face to face, but they are often good enough. I'm chairing the program committee for an SPE Applied Technology Workshop, and I insisted on a face-to-face kick off meeting so everyone would be able to see faces, and the next time we'll see each other is at the ATW--so far it is working fine to hash out the details with virtual meetings.
At the end of the day, all of these things combined will not make a significant dent in what I see as the main problem--the U.S. is importing $1.7 billion/day of hydrocarbon products. No economy can stand that kind of bleed indefinately. The price simply has to increase enough to impact each individual's disposable income enough to make them change--supply and demand is really the only effective tool.
Back to the topic of this thread, electric vehicles (like biomass fuel) will never be more than a side show unless someone comes up with a way to solve the difficult problems.
David.
David Simpson, PE
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
While not the only hurdle, until they determine where all this extra, presumably clean, electricity is actually going to come from any variation on electric vehicles, hydrogen power or even large scale plug in hybrids faces a masive hurdle.
I'd guess one of the big advantages of electic & plug in hybrids is the use of regenerative breaking but I don't think it's enough to overcome the above concern.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
However, as you start to point out, except on a small scale, with the current infrastructure you'll start to increase emissions from electrical generation.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
There's not enough agricultural biomass generated on earth, forgetting about our food needs, to eliminate our dependance on fossil fuels at CURRENT levels of consumption.
That we haven't maximized the use of renewables for our stationary energy requirements yet is a direct result of the economics being skewed toward processes which dump stuff for free into the atmosphere (ie. coal). Until wind costs LESS than burning coal, there's no incentive to do anything else other than to burn coal, so that's what we will do.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
It could be, once we know more about the carbon cycle and climate change feedbacks, that emission of CO2 is a positive thing, increasing the food supply - especially for third world countries.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
David
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Big glass shed full of (possibly legal) plants.
- Steve
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Potentially this could then free up natural gas from being used in stationary power which can relatively easily be used in existing car technology etc.
Of course, we've gone and spent the money & effort on those gas power stations and aren't going to stop using them anytime soon(even if we could build alternative sources quick enough), probably not before their natural end of life in a few decades, due to the investment made.
By the time we could stop using it for stationary power natural gas will probably be in a similar boat to what oil is currently, so you're back to square one.
Maybe we've already missed the boat for this line of thought.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Ok. But, then:
"figure 33% of the fuel energy can end up as mechanical energy at the flywheel for a 4cyl Honda"
Hmm. Both statements are apparently true. But I think the comparison is unfair. The electrical efficiency assumes all losses incurred (conversion, transmission, re-conversion to useful work), essentially an end-to-end efficiency. The automotive engine gets 33% (arguable, but maybe possible with today's turbocharged, multi-valve motors) only at its best operating point, which is essentially near-redline with near-wide-open-throttle. Since that is not how most of those Hondas are operated, the efficiency of the engine is significantly lower in actual driving use due to operation at part-load, part-throttle "cruise" conditions (maybe more like 20-25%? But I'd bet a bit less than that even). Also, to be fair, the auto example should add in conversion losses thru the drivetrain, reducing the figure to something closer to 15-20% for an overall efficiency. These are just WAG numbers, obviously, since actual drive cycles could (and do) cause a lot of variation in the average efficiency of the vehicle.
It's always bothered me that fuel-burning locomotives actually run the engine to generate electricity, which is then applied to the electric traction motors to move the train... But it's obvious when you think about it, a DC motor can provide ample torque at zero speed, while a diesel engine would have to have a relatively inefficient torque converter with gobs of slip to allow it to move the train from a dead stop. But why lug the weight and fuel around for the diesel? Was told long ago that weight for a locomotive is beneficial, since it provides traction... but that arguement does not hold for passenger rail systems where all cars have drive wheels, or are so light that high traction force from the loco is not required. I think the real answer is that diesel used to be really, really cheap. So, no point in installing expensive overhead power lines for cross-country travel.
If electrical power is locally generated, through a distributed network of small powerplants (of whatever ilk), are transmission losses across the grid consequently reduced? Does that argue in favor of wind/solar/small hydro/farm methane etc. etc. generation?
Hmmm.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
I saw an article in Popular Mechanics or Popular Science about high speed rail. One possible route was LA to Las Vegas.
I was thinking that if they set up solar power plants and wind turbines along the line (seeing as it's in the desert and pretty windy at least in parts) that would cut down transmission losses etc as well as being nice & green.
Another issue in why diesal electric not electric, what are the costs in electrifying a line & the transmission losses if far from the power plants? Some of the lines out my way in the desert are pretty remote and very long.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
"vehicles on the road represent something like a 1,200,000 MW load--does anyone think that we have anything like that much spare generating capacity or the werewithal to build it?"
Question: how many of these are operating at one time? I know mine is turned off for more than 22 hours a day. Also a good deal of time it is just keeping it self going as I wait at a stop light. It really dosen't generate all that much power, except on vacations.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
They are used in urban commuter rail.
Running off an electric motor has an advantage in that the diesel can be run at optimum efficiency, which more than offsets the little additional weight of the motor compared to the train.
What I think they should do is every rail car have a battery bank so when the train's going downhill it stores up the energy from braking...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
I understand that Electric/Diesal electric use the motors for breaking, i.e. turn them into generators to load the wheels. However, based on a show I saw the other day I got the impression that this energy is then dissapated as heat (at least by diesal electric) rather than stored/used/returned to the track.
Does anyone know anything about this? First is my understanding correct and secondly the resoning etc, I can guess part of the reasons at least historically have been financial but I wonder what technical aspects there are?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
You also get an increased yield of weeds.
What you get in natural ecosystems when you do this on what amounts to an evolutionary blink of the eye is unknown.
What IS known is that biomass yield nowhere nearly doubles with doubling atmospheric CO2 as implied in a previous post (as a wishful thought I guess). The carbon cycle is complex but it's clear that CO2 in the atmosphere versus plants on the land and in the seas represents nowhere nearly a self-regulating system- certainly not on a timescale of human significance.
And unlike global warming itself, where the complexity of climate models leads lots of people to deny the risk, nobody is denying that we're headed toward doubling our atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration, nor that we humans are responsible for this change.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
PS -- the perenial winner of the "lowest utilization award" for machinery is the automobile. As noted, not used anywhere near capacity. The index is meant to track production tool utilization, but vehicles are considered a capital tool.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
If locomotives ran on hydrogen it would be possible to use the waste electricity from braking to generate hydrogen and oxygen from the electrolysis of water, which could be used as fuel later.
Fully electric trains (relying on remotely transmitted power) can and do contribute their braking energy back to the 'grid'.
It's my opinion that an immediate policy shift towards electrified rail could save the US a lot of grief in the coming decades.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
That said, diesel is still so cheap that an enormous fraction of North American freight is moved by truck rather than by train. Hell, the city of Toronto currently TRUCKS its garbage to a landfill in Michigan, since there's no direct rail link- oh yeah, and because the roads are funded through public taxes whereas the railroads have to maintain their own rails...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
thread730-215374: DeKa Slingshot Segway.
There's a solution (electric as I recall), but what's the problem.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
After looking at the Denver light rail yesterday, there seems to be a bunch of added stuff to the cantanary part.
I wonder if the electric trains are any less maintenance intenssive than the diesel?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Must be dedicated right of way with NO grade crossings (5 people killed so far crossing the tracks in cars/trucks).
Rules for blowing the horn at grade crossings is a real problem, typical rail practice is a very loud horn, for an extended period. Neighbors don't like.
Diesels are quite noisy near stops (acceleration).
Quite a bit of parking and support structure is needed to integrate it into the existing auto systems.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
In Australia, I believe that emmissions standards on cars are more stringent than those on coal powerstations, so switching to the electrical grid may actually cause more emmissions.
In some ways hydrogen cars may make a better environmental alternative. The hydrogen can be created where there is a good environmental source of energy(solar, hydro,tide, or geothermic) and at an off peak time and then shipped to the required location(in a hydrogen powered truck of course).
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
"Quite a bit of parking and support structure is needed to integrate it into the existing auto systems."
You still need to have parking, whether its at a "Park and Ride" (which is normaly free/cheap) or whether its downtown in a garage ($5-$20/hr). People have to put their car somewhere.
The major difference is the suburbs have large amounts of space to place parking, downtown space is a premium.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
The discussion I would like to have concerns using electric powered cars rather than IC powered cars. This is the concept that I want to evaluate. There are two hurdles. Can we generate enough electricity to add the transportation power needs to the other demands on the electric grid? Would Americans be willing to accept the electric car that could be brought to market? (e.g. How much would an electric car cost that would compare to a midsized American car?)
I accept that rail transportation is efficient. I am actually a huge railfan, except I don't think it is economically viable in the US. I also accept that we should be using nuclear technology and other technology to generate electric power. But these are side issues. I just don't think folks appreciate the scale of the problem this represents to the electric grid.
And regarding the observation that a trains dynamic blows off energy as heat, I always wished the railroad could find a reliable rechargable battery that they could put in a "slug" when they travel downhill on a long division. Then these charged slugs could be used to pull the next train uphill. I'm sure there is an economic reason they do not do this. And it could be that diesel fuel is just that cheap.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
But...if we assume distributed power, and put a grid of conductors all over town...everybody could drive bumper cars, like at the amusement park. There wouldn't be much difference in actual commute-hours driving speeds (at least in THIS town), and then all the cars would just bounce off each other instead of crunching and blocking traffic whilst the drivers stand in the middle of the road staring at the damage and talking on their @$$^$# cell phones...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
It wouldn't replace my gas car, it would be solely for daily commute and errands, 90% of my driving.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
The first has been talked about a fair bit here. That is the need for expanded generation and transmission. It is possible to expand the current generation capacity using "green" technology, mainly through solar farms and expanded hydro-power. Some areas may extend that to tidal power as well.
The main issue is the size of the investment required. Longterm it may pay off, but the size of the projects required means that they will not be done without government participation. And governments tend to think in the shortterm, as longterm successes don't help at the ballot box.
The second issue is battery disposal. The most efficient batteries are laden with some of the most toxic materials around. Treatment and disposal will also require large costs.
IMO the electric car is more realistic than the hydrogen one. Hydrogen has the current hurdles of finding an effective storage system, developping and entirely new transmission system, consumes huge gobs of water and still needs as much added electric generation, if not more. Unless someone come up with a catalyst for electrolysis, hydrogen is likely less efficient.
As a side note, the comments about charging at off peak hours having less impact are somewhat false. It has less economic impact on the utilities as power is cheaper during off peak hours, but it has roughly the same overall impact on the grid. Many hydro-electric plants only operate at peak capacity during peak hours in order to maintain reservoir levels and maximise profits. For example, BC Hydro operates at full capacity during peak hours and sells power to the US. During off-peak hours they import power. Due to price differences this results in large profits.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Our conclusion was that a major breakthrough would be required in battery technology to make widespread electric cars viable. The electric-grid team came to a similar conclusion.
I know there have indeed been some major improvements in battery technology over the last 28 years, but I'm confident that every one of them will have some choke point that will make significant production increases difficult or impossible. There are A LOT of cars on the road, and as long as fuel is cheep, there will still be a lot of IC engines on the road.
David
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Electric cars in London UK, leaving a charging station. When will this be fashionable. Maybe Mad Max needs to be seen driving one.
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
I think mad max was called 'road warrior' in the US. Beats me why hollywood insists on 'dumbing down' the titles here in the us.
Anyway, I can see it happening in London. If the London Borough allows electric cars to avoid paying the central london access fee then I can see them taking off.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Yes, I'm sure the US could build lots of coal power stations if it wanted.
Now as to all the implied questions: Can we generate it 'cleanly', well it will depend on your definition of clean but I think there are big hurdles. Can we distribute it, probably not without significant upgrades to current distribution system but I'm no expert. Will environmentalist & nimbys etc allow all the power plants to be built, probably not. Will anyone want to spend all that money in anywhere near the short term, I doubt it.
In the short or probably medium term I doubt the American public will accept likely offerings on a large scale. America more so than where I used to live is addicted not just to the car but to large cars (& trucks). Even of those who would be willing to drive smaller vehicles many of them seem scared to because they think they'll be run off the road by all the trucks & SUVs. If you want to get an idea of cost take a look at Tesla. OK at the moment they only have the sports care but I believe they're working on sedan.
I think in the shorter term plug in hybrids will be more attractive than battery power alone. You still get to regenerate energy (not sure that makes sense as written, I mean capture energy othewise lost in breaking) and potentially make short/slow journeys on electricity alone. The total electrical demand will be less and may fit in better with off peak charging (as you can always travel on the IC even if the power company wont let you charge the vehicle due to demand). I'd be interested how series rather than parallel hybrids compare once you have the plug in element.
I propose we all buy old British Milk floats, stick a pallet of batteries & diesal generator on the back & see what happens!
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Is there any significant benefit in being able to adjust the loading on the gas engine (by adjusting generator) so that the gas engine operates near some kind of "best efficient point"?
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
If the hybrid powerplant is large enough, you could imagine running the engine at a max efficiency or lowest emissions point and then modulating gently around that point based on power demand. But in reality most of the hybrid systems for sale at the moment are really just performance enhancement for modestly smaller IC engines- some of them so tiny to be basically "green-washing" rather than of any real use.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
At present as far as I know the hybrids on the market are all more or less parallel. i.e. at higher power they use both the electric motor & IC engine. At lower power they may use just elecrical, if enough charge etc. At times they'll use just IC.
In a series hybrid there would only be the electric motors. They'd need to be bigger but you would have a simpler gear box/powertrain, at least potentially. The IC would run just to keep the batteries topped up. As such it could always be run at optimal efficiency.
However depending how you look at it for some of the time the IC is effectively dead weight - especially for a plug in series hybrid.
I believe their may be series hybrid busses on the market.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Although the capacity of the Prius batteries is small, very good efficiencies are attainable by using the electric only for acceleration, and the IC for cruising (where it'll run at a constant maximally efficient RPM).
My father did a home-brew EV conversion of a 1970 Citroen a few years back (a great car). He installed a small IC generator in the engine compartment which would top up the batteries for longer trips - it added about 15% to the range.
He started with lead-acid batteries but he recently bought a pack of lithium-ion for his Scion xB conversion, which will get double the range (100 miles) at half the weight.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Prices are coming down and the only real problem is transmission. Long haul transmission can overcome local calm problems. Photovoltaic is too expensive. The available wind energy in the US far exceeds its energy needs.
Pumping energy into a car with magnetic fielsd might be easier than sliding contacts, if it comes to that. I already verified that it would be force free.
My friends are building battery powered cars and my next will be electric.
Has anyone made the riders pedal yet?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
The Prius does modulate its engine speed so that for a given power output it always operates at its most efficient throttle opening. At any power output above idle its efficiency is greater than 30%, on this operating curve.
It does this by being able to run at /any/ effective gear ratio, and using the battery as a buffer so that the engine can always sit on this operating curve.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23564472/
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
To say that this country's energy policy is short sighted is like saying that the universe is kind of big.
David
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
From article:
Designers envision something called a personal rapid transit (PRT) system. "Really, all it is is a car," says Scott McGuigan of CH2M Hill, the construction firm that's building Masdar City. "It's a simple vehicle [for] six passengers. It's designed like a car, but obviously it's powered by solar energy with batteries."
These solar-powered cars would run under the city like a subway system. But McGuigan says the cars wouldn't run on fixed routes. Basically, they'dl take you anywhere you wanted to go. McGuigan says PRTs represent an energy-efficient way of moving people among roughly 1,500 stations.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
The UK had electric milk floats for decades which suggests that goods ought to be received in some peripheral transit area and carried into the community, to shops, factories etc by electric powered vehicles.
But the problem is the batteries. They are expensive, add weight and are themselves a major "end-of-life" problem.
The alternatives are electric trams, trolley buses etc.
Indeed, having pulled up all the tracks and overhead power lines for trams they are now being re-introduced in many cities. They are clean quite and efficient.
However, to be of real value I think some similar approach is needed for the car. Most people drive on paved roads almost all of the time.
If the major routes were provided with some form of power grid then hybrid cars could transition from petrol/diesel to electric and not have to carry batteries. If an all electric car was proposed then it would need small batteries to transition it from minor roads to major and from the driveway to the roads. Once on the gridded roads it could re-charge its batteries on the move. I would think that could significantly reduce the necessary battery size, weight and cost and perhaps avoid the need for special steels in the car construction and maybe extend battery life.
Think dodgem cars or think full scale Scalextrics (slot racers) and consider that anything that threatens to electrocute jay-walkers would have to be a good idea. Cyclists too, especially express messenger cyclists.
Bring back the C5 for pedestrian areas and city centres?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
http
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3934
If solar becomes cheaper a personal solar charging station would become feasible.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
One idea I had is to make exchangeable battery packs. Perhaps on the underside of the vehicle. Drive to a 'battery' station, pull over a pit (with guides/cover etc. so you don't drive into the pit!). A robot exchanges the battery pack for a fully charged one. You get charged for the electrical energy in the pack. The station recharges the packs....
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
...Seriously, awsome idea
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Oh you mean Patent. No, maybe I should but it's in the open now and can't be patented if I recall correctly.
Maybe I could sell it to my brother in law, he works in the electric industry. Then again his company wasn't fussed by my idea of integrated off shore power plants.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5301765.html
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http://www.electroauto.com/info/bat.shtml
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KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
As far as power distribution over the power network, I recall that there is plenty of capacity for at least 8 to 12 hours a day (more correctly at night. Which happens to be the same time most of the wind power happens here.
Solar works fine until a nice hail storm. I guess you can park your car under something (can't get much sun that way).
The elecrtic industry is capacity limited by goverment regulations, but get rid of those and the capacity will show up.
How about parking meters attached to power outlets?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
We have had those in Canada for a long time. We call them block heater outlets.
HAZOP at www.curryhydrocarbons.ca
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Unless you are talking about the block design of most batteries.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
I guess north of the border these are available out on the street and are called 'block heater outlets'.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
The block heaters are 100 watts and they go in the dipstick hole to warm up the oil and block.
I came up with an old energy saving idea. I use a 10w "brown devil" resistor heated by stored photovoltaic (a pile of laptop batteries) as a hand warmer. Now I can turn down the thermostat 2 degrees. Also an electric blanket on the sofa works good.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
My plan - lease the battery from the supplier. Each battery is fitted with condition monitoring etc.
When you exchange a discharged battery for a charged one at a service station (drive in, robot undoes 4 bolts, takes old one away, bolts in new one, from under the car).
You are billed for (a) total usage of battery (b) net difference in state of charge (c) any damaging currents.
You get credit for returning a battery that is more highly charged than it was when you borrowed it it in the first place.
Therefore your risk is limited to having to drop into a servo again to replace a poor battery, it won't actually cost you anything. The condition monitoring should stop that happening.
Your car will be fitted with the same monitoring gear - any discrepancy will be flagged to you.
Now that is all fine and dandy. There is however a bit of a problem. What does the servo do with all these dead batteries? It needs to be alongside a powerstation.
Note that this would allow you to charge it at home, or off the engine, and keep the same battery for as long as you like.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
There is a streach of about 200 miles East of here where the only fuel is very high priced, if you find them open.
For traveling past there you need to take care. So how would that work with batterys?
There's the issue, the vast distance in parts of the US, and probally other countries to. Then the issue of cold on the batteries, and the reduced capacity.
The other side is the heat in some places that tends to reduce battery life.
Nothings perfect, but the energy density just dosen't seem to be there in batteries.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Got the idea thinking about armored ships, vehicles, Aircraft etc. Early armored craft typically had the armor as almost an after thought, added to a basic shell/frame or whatever. As such massive weight penalty with little or no structural benefit from the armor. Over time some designs started using the armor as part of the structure, leading to mass savings and/or structural improvements. (Bad news was/is that structural armor designs tended to be harder to repair if the armor was/is damaged, so it's not universal even today I believe.)
So making the batteries structural could perhaps have the same benefit. No idea yet how you'd achieve it, or if there's any way it's practical but I'm throwing it out there.
As to Crazy idea #1 that someone had already thought of...
wvphysicist sorry I didn't spend the time to address most of your concerns in my post. Next time I'll put an entire business case.
Greg, I didn't spend the time to go into details but I'd thought of most of those points. Simplistically it would be like swapping a propane tank but of course you'd want a rebate for any net charge like you said. Also some kind of damage fee. And like you say you'd still be able to recharge at home, the swap would be when you don't have time to do so or need longer range.
As to what to do with all the dead batteries, well most of the charging could be done off peak, if the station carries a big enough stock to get it through the peak electrical hours without recharging. Not sure it would need to be next to a power station but probably near at least a sub station or however you get dedicated higher power lines.
Also to help power shaving in places like So Cal the power company would be able to stop the batteries from charging, maybe even drain some in emergencies though I'm not sure how good an idea that is. The station could also install a bunch of solar panels, or out in the boondocks wind turbine or whatever, probably wouldn't meet full demand but as a marketing tool to make all the greenies happy might work well.
So long as the mechanical and electrical interfaces are the same you could have different levels of battery, bit like the grades of fuel. Your basic lead Acid might only get you 50 miles but the lithium might get you 100, or whatever the energy densities work out at. The higher energy batteries would have a slight premium to cover the increased cost of the pack.
Gymmeh, while you probably can't make it impossible for a kid to take off you can make it difficult. You can have some kind of lock, not just the structural 'bolts', which of course might not be bolts. You can even arrange the geometry so that you need more clearance under the vehicle to remove the pack than you get in normal driving condition, I'd say your concern is one of the more easily addressed.
As to the limited range, you could still use these packs with some kind of plug in hybrid though the mass penalties might add up (unless idea # 2 is implemented
My biggest concern would be getting ISO/ANSI/ASME/SAE or whoever to agree on the standard size/interface of the packs etc!
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
What kind of protection do you think would be needed in an accident to protect you from an exploding battery, and what does that protection do to the weight of the car?
Eventually the government will want an extra tax tacked onto your power bill for roads and such. Does that mean dedicated meters and outlets in our home just for charging or just a flat tax?
The cars we drive now are relatively heavy for what they are. My boss's stream liner (race car) with two V8s in it is about the same weight of a Honda CRX. The auto manufacturers would need to retool with new robotic welders and it would add about $3000 to the cost of the car.
Once a viable electric solution is on the market, what do you think will happen to gas prices? Then how will these solutions look?
Just fun thoughts.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
So for this to work you would need an electric meter on your car, and someone to read the meter, and someone to verify you haven't tampered with the meter, and more.
Not that it's a bad idea, it just needs a bunch more thinking, and a big coil or copper.
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
http://scangauge.com/
It will be nothing to include charging information on a future version.
To feed all the paranoiacs out there, OBDIII will be wireless - combine that with GPS and when you drive by a cop car he'll know exactly where and when your car went somewhere (and if you deserve a speeding ticket).
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
All those guys busy unlocking phones will have a new career relabelling the GPS identifier as Paul McCatneys new car.
But, the cost of GPS for speed monitoring is next to nothing. The concept has been there since GPS became available.
Government's love investing millions on useless computer systems for ambulance management, doctors jobs, and so on and each and every time they get a cost over-run, a time over-run and the things don't actually work. They also love the idea of congenstion charging and toll roads with computer systems.
But on the off-chance they did get it to work then that government would be out of office quicker than anything.
Extreme solutions have a habit not only of not working but producing some unintended consequences.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
Now I don't know that too many people would object to some maniac being caught by the technology, but .......
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
- Steve
RE: Is electric powered transpo the answer?
The gas millage of older cars can be up to 30 MPG which is better than the new cars.
As far as electric cars, convert an old car for electric. t will cost much less than the newer electric cars, and it makes a nice project to work on with your son.
However, your second car probally should be a gas or diesel car for now for those longer trips.