×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Global vs detail oriented brain
5

Global vs detail oriented brain

Global vs detail oriented brain

(OP)
We all know the anecdotes about micro managers and other detail minded people. My boss is detail minded, actually several colleagues are detail minded and I have the impression that it's the company culture, or let's say it has worsened because it hadn't struck me when I joined a couple years ago. I am global myself and I usually think of "translating" messages to detail minded people, i.e.: throw in a dozen small, not necessarily relevant items so the message does not fit on one page and their interest is immediately tickled. winky smile

The other day I forgot to do so though. After I sent out a (short!) list of actions resulting from a meeting, my boss replied to all: did you discuss X, Y and Z? I responsed: yes, yes and no, with the idea in the back of my mind that I would bump into him later that day to discuss further. My detail minded co-worker apparently saw an open goal and sent a much more detailed reply to all. My boss replied to all thanking the other guy for his useful response and publicly told me off for having sent a reply "of no interest". Which of course is TRUE... for a DETAIL minded person!

But after that the issue started to haunt me. This is not the first "detail minded company" I work in. The anecdotes about micro managers are so generic it almost seems as though you have to be detail minded to get anywhere higher up the food chain, as contradictory as this may seem. Detail minded often gets confused with "driven", "dedicated", "rigorous"... or is it really the same thing!? I get sooo booored with details, I prefer to work with global people, I actually think many global people have a sense of humor while many detailed people don't (sorry it's not a pleasant thing to say), but are global people really fit for corporate life if they get bored so quickly? Is a global brain simply a lazy brain?? (You can see the existential crisis I'm in today...)

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

You darn French and your existential issueswinky smile.

I've actually become worried that I'm turning into a control freak micromanager, I guess detail oriented in your parlence.  I also think I may be on the autistic scale or something somewhere as occasionally I get hung up on something and just can't let go, not matter what, even if I realize I'm doing it.

My manager is certainly the global kind, don't trouble him with details for the most part.

By the way, though not as sharp as it was I like to think I have at least a bit of a sense of humo(u)r left.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Sorry epoisses, your other post reminded me you're not french just live there.  Still, they must be rubbing off on youwinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I have found that if you don't have a style that matches your boss, he is likely to not notice your full contributions to the organization.  I also think this is more prevelant in engineering.  If you can't solve the kinds of problems your boss thinks are important, he will think you are of little value.

In my particular discipline, the big picture people have all the top jobs and they delegate the details to the lower people.  From my point of view, it appears to get ahead, you need a few detail oriented people around you to fix things so you can spend your time looking good and promoting yourself.  Maybe that is too harsh though.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

The problem is that people don't know how to ask questions.

Your boss asked:  "Did you discuss X, Y and Z?"

You answered the question asked.

What your boss really wanted to know however was:  "What was the outcome of the discussions of X, Y and Z?"

Certainly, had he asked the proper question, you would have given a full answer.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

MintJulep I'd give you a star, but I feel that if you've worked with someone for any amount of time (+6mos) you should be able to know when to take them literally and to "read into" their questions.

I don't think global= lazy.  Some people see/comprehend the big picture faster than others, they don't need to be inundated with the details up front. People exist that do need those details, it can frustrate others.  There is room for both mindsets in "corporate life", they just need to be in the proper positions.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

MM,

Conversely, the boss should know that if he asks epoisses "Did you discuss X?" the answer will be yes or no.

I have - for the most part - successfully trained the people who manage the projects that I work on to ask the question that they want answered.

When they forget, I will prompt them.  For example, my response would have been "Yes, we spoke about X and Y, but not Z.  Do you need to know the discussion details, or just the outcome?"

  

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Ah, but have you successfully trained your boss?
I had a boss who would invariably read any emails, memos, reports etc. and laboriously correct spelling and grammar mistakes and then hand them back to the author(s).
He would write incredibly small margin notes you needed a magnifying glass to read.

Sadly, he never actually seemed to actually read or understand what was said. Pretty soon any emails, memos or reports sent to him were found to be of greater and greater verbosity. This seemed to give him plenty to occupy his days (and plenty of satisfaction) and we could get on with some real work.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

The sender of course has to make judgements about the level of detail important in any correspondence.  It will depend on the importance of the issue, the amount of time available to compose a response, and the context/audience of the message.   I often find managers in my organization don't want a lot of detail up front  (just the bottom line conclusions and recommendations.. they'll ask questions if they want the rest) so I provide a lot of curt summary level emails if that is my audience (with attachments if I think there are important details neceesary to communicate).

For your boss to thank a co-worker for additional details is natural.

For your boss to publically (reply to all) criticize your email is ridiculous on 2 levels
1 - you didn't do anything wrong... answered the questions and made judgements about the level of detail required.
2 - even if you did do something wrong, or your boss wanted to provide you guidance on the way he wants things done in the future, it is not appropriate to communicate that in a reply to all type message.  I can't say I have ever seen any supervisor criticize the efforts of his subordinates in an email... that is something best done verbally, or if time/convenience demands an email then it should be to one person only.





 

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Global issues are management horseflop, engineering is ALL about the details.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Star for civilperson.
Epoisses,
I would think that you task of preparing a list of actions resulting from a meeting would require an accurate representation of points discussed and agreed.  The fact that your boss identified missing topics suggests that you were caught out and he had to effectively complete your work.  This has nothing to do with "global" or "detail-minded" people.  Certain tasks call for attention to detail, while fewer still (and usually at a higher level) allow a global approach.

Our profession, generally requires that attention to detail and if you cannot be bothered to apply it, someone else (like a checker) has to finish your work.

On the example you used, the preparation of a list or minutes of a meeting should not require such a follow-up to get it correct, and you should be worried that this - what we call in Australia "no worries, she'll be right" - attitude will lead your boss to lack confidence in your ability to finish a job.   

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I, for one, agree with MJ about asking the right question.  My current boss (for two more weeks) asks broad questions and expects exact answers.  Sometimes he wants the details, sometimes just one word.  If he doesn't get the answer in the amount of detail he wanted he will start to yell.  What's worse is if you hesitate...

That aside; in my limited experience, global minded people are better off for some higher level positions because they aren't blinded by the details as many are (myself included).

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

A lot of people that I have known that "aren't blinded by the details" ask for or expect unrealistic results.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Engineering is about the solution to specific problems.  As such, while detailed design is what results in the final product, the detailed design is a consequence of the requirements generated from the global perspective and global requirements.

Additionally, detailed design is constrained by conflicts in requirements, i.e., performance vs. power consumption; elegance vs. strength to withstand earthquakes.  It's the big picture guys that determine which one gets sway and where to draw the line.

In a well functioning engineering organization, you need to have both types.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

While I don't know you...I'm guessing when you answered yes, yes, no.  You were fully aware of the high probability someone was going to get their nose out of joint.  I do the same thing on occasion to make a point.  You just got busted this time.

I'm reminded of an old Brady Bunch episode...If I ask you if you have a watch; is the proper response yes or no?  I don't think so.  A reasonable person would expect an answer of "No sorry." or "Yes, It's 3:34".

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Star for IRStuff! Reading the posts I was thinking just that. The balance between details and global thinking is critical in engineering. Obviously, when doing detail work, such as specifying a size/grade of a bolt, you are looking at the loading it is subjected to, which is a function of the part you are bolting (i.e. a bracket for supporting a platform), which is determined by the global picture. The details all lead up to a final "global" design. Only being able to see one is a good step towards less than optimal design.

I am detailed orientated and had to "learn" to think more globally. Before, I could have designed a large machine and welded guarding all around. Took me a bit, but I've finally figured out that, hey, maybe their should be maintenance access. And removable hatches at areas that may need more frequent adjustment.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I'm wondering if the OP wasn't commenting on a few different things: micromanaging and the inability to prioritize, and whether or not attention to detail is important for engineering.

I agree with comments on the importance of details -- BUT I also think that some detail oriented people get caught up in knowing all the details all the time, even when these details are of no use to them or the work they do.  Not just in the micromanagment sense, but also in the how many significant digits should you have in the solution sense.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

(OP)
blutfort, I think you are right, it must have been my subconscience crying for a boss who would just say "OK great, so you manage it, let me know if you run into any problem".

BillBirch, yes I would love to have a checker here - am used to having my wife play the checker role at home... smile

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

What are they paying your way for a checker these days, maybe I'm interestedwinky smile.

I think IRstuff and others who talk about both being needed and balancing the requirements of both.

The difficult thing is when you need to be doing both yourself, making sure you don't get so over whelmed by details that you miss the global.

As to playing games with managers, deliberately setting them up for something, it's hard not to sometimes, though not perhaps a good career move.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I suppose I'm the other way round--my boss is much more "global" than I am.  After 6 years, he still hasn't learned that when I ask, "What is happening with X?" the correct answer is NOT "It's being taken care of."  

Someone mentioned boss-training above.  I don't know how much more explicit I can get than, "If I just wanted to know whether or not it was being taken care of, I would have asked whether it was being taken care of.  That's not what I asked."

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

HgTX -- I've got the same problem.  My boss hates sharing any information, and unless I ask pointed and direct questions, I will never get the answers that I want -- Not that I get them even when I ask.

Where do we sign our bosses up for boss training?

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Sounds like your bosses have been training you, but also failing miserably at it.  

Since you already know what the resultant behavior will be, persistenting in persuing that avenue smacks of masochism at the very least, or, a desire for confrontations.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

It's just really hard to internalize the notion that someone with nothing to hide will withhold information I ask for.  And short of appending "and I really do want you to answer it" to every question, I don't know how to go about getting information in a better way than a direct question.

Some people just like to hoard information.  Every once in a while I manage to point to an example of something that went wrong because of this, and the situation improves for a while, but it doesn't take long for the pattern to set back in.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I've noticed that the older the manager, the more likely they are to hoard info (younger managers with self-worth issues).  I think it goes back to some sort of archance ideas of pecking order & protecting a position.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I get it that your managers have their issues; the question is why do YOU persist in asking questions that will never yield the answers you want.  

There's not necessarily much you can do with a manager's entrenched mind, but your expectations and behaviors ought to accommodate those responses.  Particularly if it's frustrating you; so why do YOU still do that?

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Maybe I'm coming across the wrong way, it doesn't really bug me any more -- I'm just making observations.  It's something I deal with, and think of as quirky beahviour.  There are bigger fish to fry!

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

You make it seem like I keep asking the same question.  Are you saying I should just never ask any more questions?  Cuz that's just ridiculous.

I'm at a loss, though, for figuring out a *way* to ask questions, in general, to get me a better result.  As I said, following each question with "and I really did mean that I wanted a full answer to that" just doesn't seem like a good idea.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Perhaps with this manager if you want a detailed answer you need a detailed question?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Quote:

After 6 years, he still hasn't learned that when I ask, "What is happening with X?" the correct answer is NOT "It's being taken care of."
  Sounds like a recurring theme to me.
What you didn't say was whether you ever get the answers you're looking for.  If yes, then ther's hope, possibly starting out with "I need a detailed breakdown about what's happening with XY."  Or perhaps, he's just pulling your chain, because he can, and because you react.   

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

perhaps "its being taken care of" is the correct answer and you are asking for information he does not want to share with you.  After all, he is your boss and can share any or all information he wants on a need to know basis.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

If I'm really not allowed to know, he'll tell me I'm not allowed to know.

Other than confidential human resources issues that I can't legally be told about, though, I need to know pretty much everything that goes on.  I'm his backup if he's not here, and there have been many occasions where I needed information and didn't have it.

It's not just me.  I had another manager from another section ask me why my manager had given a non-answer to something.

I think "I need a detailed breakdown" is a good start.  I'll try something like that next time.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

some people will withhold information to try and make themselves seem more important.  they become the only source of the important details.  This is bad business practice for the reasons you have already mentioned.  However, it still happens, all the time.  It sounds like your boss is not a good team player.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Quote (YKEE):


Where do we sign our bosses up for boss training?

Actually the book "Don't shoot the dog" by Karen Pryor is not a dog training book at all, but a book on how to train humans...

Worth a read in some cases, just don't tell your boss you're training them.

SLH
 

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I also like details, though in my short experience I've seen global-minded guys end up managing detail-oriented minds.  Maybe it has something to do with human nature.  If you can explain any problem in simple terms to managers or customers, they'll likely think of you as smarter guy. From then on, promotions and more challenging positions are just a matter of time.  No general in history win battles by memorizing how many rounds each soldier has, but being able to get the big picture of the battle, and sharing it w/his staff.

Detail oriented minds are more suitable for technical environments, where people skills are less needed. Machines and devices won't talk, so a scanner-like mind will find out the small points of failure where a global-mind won't.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

GonzaloEE I do think that global oriented is more prone to becoming management because they can explain things quickly (not to be confused with accurately).  I don't think people perceive this as being smart, but, as having the ability to communicate and be understood.  No one like talking to someone they can't understand, and in this sense, the global oriented mind acts as the interpreter.  I think sometimes this works well, but often it works badly -- just like Dilbert!

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Quote:

If you can explain any problem in simple terms to managers or customers, they'll likely think of you as smarter guy.
  Compared to one who can't, you ARE smarter.
You can be the smartest person in the world on a particular subject, but if you can't explain things so that others can understand, how would they even know that you're smart?

I would also dispute the implication that smart people can't be global.

Not seeing the forest for the trees is often a problem.  Local optimizations do not necessarily lead to global optimizations.  That's why global views are necessarily in the design process, not just in the management.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Maybe the smartest people are those who have a good blend of each.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

hmmmmm.....I think global/smart is like comparing apples & oranges.
 

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Why is that?  If you needed a car designed, wouldn't you rather have someone that can design 100% of it, even if it isn't fully optimized, rather than have someone who can only design the best brakes in the world?

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I work with global people. I like my global culture. I've worked in detailed environments, and frankly I think they're inefficient.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I'm afraid I must agree the market belongs to global-minded guys.  What's the meaning of being smart?  The same sales manager may be regarded as 'brilliant' by customers, while looking like ignorant or inaccurate for his/her Engineering coworkers, after listening all those absurd,  inaccurate comparisons in presentations.

We must accept the fact that in many (not all) companies, Sales/Marketing means profit, while Engineering means cost. Sales guys know for sure their people skills are making money, 'lifting' the company, while we the Engineers are fighting an everyday battle to lower our costs, trying to weight less for the Management shoulders.  A lack of ability to get a 'big picture' and transmit it to others  only makes things worse.

I guess our stereotyped, detail-oriented Engineer should learn how to jump the fence, think for one minute how a joke or a laugh at lunch time may stretch the project budget more easily than a whole-day datasheet search, or just playing with this: How would I like to see my desk job shown in Discovery Channel: Interesting?, A key factor in our business?, Yawning 'tech stuff'?


 

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I think you're missing my point.  You don't have to be in marketing to need to be globally minded.  In defense, we have guys that design the nuts abd bolts, and we have guys that design the overally system, develope the concepts of operation, and allocated the specific requirements, so that the nuts and bolts guys can do their designs.

They're both important, because having only a roomful of nuts and bolts guys will not ensure that you're going to have a useful and effective system at the end of the day.

And, when the customer wants to know how our system is going to work within his system, guess what, he's going to ask the global minded person, and not the nuts and bolts guy.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I got your point, and I agree Business/Electrical examples may be a little confusing. I'm only saying bolt/nuts guys should try to think global before thinking on promotions.  Of course technician and Engineer's skills and levels of decision are very different (of course both equally important), though getting more global is always good for mind health, no matter if I'm the Manager or the guy with the soldering gun.  

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I agree with IRstuff, you need a combination, be it people that manage both or a mix of the 2 separate types.

I dont' think one is better or smarter than the other.

I will say that perhaps the global will more likely make their way in management so perhaps make more though there are technical 'experts' that make a nice living too.

My last place got rid of the sales & marketing people and Engineering Project Management took over most of those duties.  In this situation it worked a lot better, I'm not saying that's always going to be the case though.  The Engineering project people were arguably more global, they could look at the commercial aspects and the engineering aspects and bid accordingly.  The sales/marketing types didn't seem to get the engineering aspects and caused problems because of it.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

(OP)
The global SHOULD go in management by definition IMHO and the detail minded should stay in hands-on positions, nothing worse than a manager who messes with details...
As in IRstuff's example, a manager who insists that I design the best brakes in the world, while I struggle to see how I will finish the total car design before the deadline, just gets on my nerves. Being a global person in a very detail minded organisation (my previous employer was a great example) means you drag along a multiple pages to do list, as soon as you think you can check a box you are asked to go over it once again... it's a major stress factor.
But then again the detail minded in a global organisation must have their dose of stress as well, all those unmanaged details! must be unbearable big smile

  

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

This is a false dichotomy. Systems engineers think 'globally', subsystem engineers think 'detail' wise, but good engineers will do both as necessary.

I enjoy detail work. I enjoy optimising defined systems. But I know that system integration inside poorly defined constraints is a more dangerous, more valuable, and less common, strength.

 

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

For those who've commented on information hoarding, I'd like to come at it from a different perspective.

It is correct to say that it's "bad business practice" to hoard and not share info. However it's also bad practice to receive praise for work that isn't yours.

An example of what I mean is a recent request at our place to write powerpoint report summaries that present all the key data in a very simple visual form. I can't stand this because it gives people who don't really know what they're doing an easy route to appearing like they know stuff.

I write concise reports, sure, but not as concise as certain people need to be able to repeat the work.

The problem here is that in modern businesses people are seen as a disposable asset and information hoarding is to some extent the response to this. I accept that this is quite confrontational and not always necessary, but the interests of the business aren't the only issue here.

Ben

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Flexibility is indeed the key.  Being the world's foremost expert on brakes is great when gas prices are low, but now?

You need to adapt to both changes in requirements and level of detail.   

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Looks like there's some agreement on a global/detail balance.  Integral engineers should always use a periscope for checking out what's going on above their technical waters.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

I agree good communication skills don't necessarily mean earning the 'smart stamp', though I think people skills are as valuable as being accurate, structured and creative or showing superior abstract thinking –as many engineers do. This might sound obvious in a forum, but in my work I've met some tech guys who seem like 100% focused on their hard skills, and worst of it, they are absolutely convinced their work problems should be solved only that way.

I think global thinking doesn't mean sending technicians to Management courses, but having deep understanding of which resources we have to solve a problem.  Not all engineering tools, technically speaking, but our people networks (I make deep use of it, though).    

More than once, Eng-Tips helped me much more than a manufacturer's Tech assistance page. More than once, a brief talk helps more than thinking alone.  If you agree on that, you are global-minded and you're one step ahead of your colleagues.

That's all (I'm feeling like a preacher)  smile  
 

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

epoisses,

A few things to note:

This type of thing happens all the time the idea is to learn from it and move on. I have had to learn to work with 6 sets of management so far each with their own peculiarities. The important thing to realise is that it is you that has to change your behaviour as they are the ones in charge, and also probably more experienced and set in their ways. Not fair, possibly, but it is just one of the things in life that is not fair.

Secondly you need to understand how engineering works. You start of being employed as a details person to sort out all the details that the upper management do not have time for. It is only when you are of a sufficient level that you can delegate these details to someone else and concentrate on the global picture.

So, learn from this, and take pride in your work. Try and take care of the details then one day you will be in a position that you can use that ability to think more globally.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain



There is a point, perhaps not mentioned above, that always make an engineer with (also) a global or helicopter view useful:

'Is the main startpoint for your detailled engineering correct?'

In our not perfect world the answer is often 'no'.

(The construction was beautiful and correct constructed but should have been built on a complete different set of presumptions, or perhaps not been made at all.)
 

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

gerhardl,

Good point, but this only really comes with experience.

How can you understand a whole forest if you dont really understand how a tree works?

Life is all about staged learning. When you do an advanced driving course they tell you to watch four cars in front of you. Why dont they teach you this when you first start driving? Because you would crash into the car in front of you! It is only when you automatically are aware of what is happening straight in front of you that you can then safely look further ahead of you.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

Anyway, if you have the best from both worlds in a work team, you're lucky.

RE: Global vs detail oriented brain

The reply email to all was a message to you that your boss and coworkers can be backstabbers. I have worked in many places and this can be a routine in some or non-existent in others. I have since developed a thick skin to prevent such things. I use it when necessary. To reply to the meeting goals question, I would have stepped into his office to discuss things. Or, reply in the email but only to him for a short answer. It is a good idea, as you intended, to keep it simple first and them reel in the details as needed. I like to give the impression that I am being on the task and give resistance to anyone trying to overhead me.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources