Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
(OP)
I am currently searching for an alternative fuel to convert my truck. I have settled on Propane. But in my research i found that the closer the injector is to the combustion chamber the more power and efficiency are acheived.
I was curious if anyone has come across a Direct Injection Propane System, in liquid form. I can only find systems that use vapor and another that uses liquid but is in the intake.
Any info is appreciated,
Thanks,
pricej20
I was curious if anyone has come across a Direct Injection Propane System, in liquid form. I can only find systems that use vapor and another that uses liquid but is in the intake.
Any info is appreciated,
Thanks,
pricej20





RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
http://www.mogas.ca
http://www.cleanfuelusa.com/lpi/lpi_system.php
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
Mogas has experimented on same and CleanFuelUSA has an OEM upfit for a few specific OEM platforms, not for the aftermarket installer.
In Europe, Vialle and ICOM are the two major liquid injection suppliers, but these too are port injected, NOT direct injected.
I saw one lab engine on direct injection but it is years away from any production hopeful capabilities.
Franz
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RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
The amount of development and eventual complexity of a true DI system is simply way over the heads and costs of what could be realised outside of an OEM or a major engine development consultancy (e.g. Ricardo, AVL, FEV, Mahle (formerly Cosworth Engineering), Lotus Engineering, etc.), and the costs of implementing such a system as an aftermarket "kit" would be prohibitive.
Liquid propane injection has clear advantages over gaseous; but what is your motivation for wanting to do DI (I'm not saying there aren't any advantages of DI here).
You might also contact Cummins-Westport. While they don't work with propane, they do have a system that directly injects natural gas into the combustion chamber, and ignited with a Diesel pilot injection.
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
ISZ
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
Besides no aftermarket systems, there are no OEM ones either. Pumping propane to pressures needed for DI use introduces other issues as well, including diesel like fuel pumps (not modified diesel pumps though), and a host of other technical problems. New Thread?
Franz
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RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
I've never heard of direct injection propane, hence why i'm asking. Would you "settle" for liquid port injection?
Side question to the other members - can direct diesel injectors be used for liquid propane injection? Since direct diesel injectors could handle the high pressure?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
Pump lubrication is the usual problem when injecting other fluids with a diesel pump.
Regards
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RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
That is so wrong. BMW, VW, Audi, Lexus, several others and even GM now have gasoline direct injection in production vehicles.
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
As for LPDI, yes it has been done. For the typical applications it is of no economic value because of the low potential volumes. From a techincal perspective, it works well sort of.. The problem is with hot fuel handling.
As for converting a truck, forget DI. Liquid phase port injection offers improved charge density and longer valve life and more but the problem aint the technology, its the WWII era fuel quality standards that the LPG industry had barely improved to date. Before catalytic converters were on vehicles, gasolines were offerred with detergents and formulations were blended to reduce common problems. LPG on the other hand is sold as is where is with standards that DO NOT accomodate the clean up or keep clean requirements of precision orifice liquid fuel injectors. For now it is safer to stick with vapor injection, when the lpg industry is forced to produce motorfuel that is compatible with the hightened requirements of liquid phase injection then the it will be less costly (warranty) for upfitters to use lpi.
If you are converting to lpg as a hobby and to tinker then port injected lpi is fun to mess with.
Good luck.
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
I ran accross this company who is offering a "solution". www.technocarb.com.
Turbo, you seem to be the go to guy. Your thoughts?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
Unless it can meet the same rigorous operational and pollution control requirements as an oem gasoline system it is not something I would endorse. No matter how well any mfg engineers a system, the lack of Real, and I mean REAL motor fuel standards that include detergents to remove deposits will prevent conformance with epa/carb regs. The better systems out there are more vulnerable to failure due to sulphur and olefin deposits. These same elements are not a problem for fuel injectors is a few compounds are added to the fuel.
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
this the PDF product description:
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RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
ROUSH just released the OEM LPG F150 as a $10k option.....
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
http://www.vialle.nl/home.html?L=1
Orbital recently bought BASF , so now is in bed with Vialle. Orbital/Vialle has contracts to supply Ford Au. with the Vialle systems. I suspect Orbital will also adapt their Direct Injection technology to the Vialle system.
http://www.orbeng.com/orbital/
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
http:/
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
They were going to market the system, and even had a website, but it was never finished and has now disappeared. I guess they thought the better of it.
An automotive engineer named David Bennett patented the system in 1998 and Schwans bought him out, patent, manufacturing operation and all. You can look at his drawings at Patents on line.
Since LPG has a slightly lower HHV than gasoline and with a gaseous propane carbureted system so much of the air available for combustion is displaced by the fuel, carbureted propane systems were considerably less efficient than gasoline systems. Turbocharging was about the only way to get the lost efficiency back.
The liquid injection system has nozzles that expel the propane right above the intake valve. At speed, a considerable amount of liquid propane makes it into the combustion chamber. The phase change occuring within the combustion chamber cools the air/fuel charge and contributes to the overall compression ratio. This system is supposed to be more efficient than gasoline.
RE: Direct Liquid Propane Injection?
Efficiency of an Otto cycle engine is less a function of the fuel itself than many other parameters, which can and should be optimized for a particular fuel.