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SE New technology
3

SE New technology

RE: SE New technology

OK, now I'm scared.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SE New technology

As we suspected, very much in the direction of SpaceClaim with the direct editing approach. I'd still like to know if the direct edit will adjust any underlying sketches - I didn't see that made clear in the video, or did I just miss it.
Can't say that I'm enthusiastic about the "Now anyone can edit a model" bit - I've seen too many cock-ups because the wrong people edited the wrong thing !!
 

bc.
CAD2 Imagine Workstation
2.4GHz Core2 Quad
4GB RAM
Quadro FX4600
24" Iiyama widescreen

RE: SE New technology

Is it realy Solid Edge ?

RE: SE New technology

This link takes you to a white paper that gives a little more detail.

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/legacy/docs/Synchronous_Technology_CPDA_WhitePaper.pdf

While there is still a lot of detail to come out, this technology really looks like it will become a big differentiator between SE, SW and IV. Personally, I am very excited and can't wait to get an opportunity to have a go.
At the start of the year i was seriously considering taking advantage of a discount SpaceClaim were offering - the demos looked good and there were some very clever features. It will be interesting to see if SE can achieve the same level of ease of use and clever workflow.

If the execution is good in V21 then SE will, in my opinion, have something to shout about.
Now all Siemens have to do to ensure success is to employ the Solidworks marketing dept.!
Tony

RE: SE New technology

"employ the Solidworks marketing dept.!"

And budget!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SE New technology

A total rip-off from KeyCreator.  They've had this technology for years.  Can't believe they have the balls to say it's new.  I can see law suits on this one.

RE: SE New technology

At first glance, how SE has incorporated the new functions into the program looks pretty good ... but I have learned to never trust canned demos; especially the highly edited video versions.

Placing dimensions on the solid geometry instead of the sketch was being done in CoCreates Solid Designer (now One Space) at least 16 years ago. It could also work on any imported file as if it were native.

SW2008 introduced Instant 3D allowing pushing/pulling of sketch areas to create a solid, and dragging solid faces.

Not trying to knock SE. What they've done will definitely give SE an edge over their competition ... but their claims are questionable. Which is typical for all the major 3D CAD players.

 

cheers

RE: SE New technology

On the SE newsgroups, this definition of "new" has been explained.

1) SE has had direct editing/modeling long before synchronous technology.  The same direct editing as Solidworks, but before Solidworks had it.  This is different.
2) SE has had dimensions on solid geometry, called PMI in their terms, for a long time.  Not quite as long as CoCreate, but then again I think they are not an apples to oranges comparison.

Synchronous Technology is not like SpaceClaim, CoCreate, or KeyCreator.  It is another layer between the geometry kernel (D-Cubed and Parasolid for sketching and modeling, respectively) and SE.  This extra layer erases the history dependence of making a change to a parametric model.  For that reason, they are calling it new.  Granted, the interface to Synchronous Technology resembles prior art of other CAD packages, I'll attest to that.  But we really need to wait and see (in other words, use it) before we can make a judgement on its authentic "newness."

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: SE New technology

There were extended discussion threads on the UGS forums. Dan Staples has posted many times.

From what I read, it is my understanding that they will now push in this direction with Solid Edge, although they will continue to support the history-based approach for some time. But D. Staples has said that Synchronous Technology was the future.

RE: SE New technology

Well, based on the video demo here, we have an answer to a question I had: yes, the interface has changed to follow on the new Microsoft standards, as SW2008 then Autocad 2009 have done.

One thing springs to mind: these new model editing features are based on the PMI dimensions. Problem is, PMI was disabled on Solid Edge Model & Drafting and SE Foundation. Should we surmise that we'll have to upgrade to Solid Edge Classic to use synchronous technology?

Scott, what exactly is the widget you're talking about? The text window to edit dims (à la SW), or the thingy used to edit faces? Because it looks a lot like that rotate tool that's been in SE for years.

- Norm

RE: SE New technology

Yea I had that exact same though Norm, currently we use 16 floating Foundation and 2 floating Classic licenses. Having to turn those 16 into Classic to be able to use the full extent of synchronous technology would be real annoying.
I don't think this will happen though, PMI will probably be turned into a core component and be usable for anyone independent of the kind of license you've got.

/Pontus

RE: SE New technology

The "Widget" is the name of the control handle used on SpaceClaim in order to push/pull/rotate features and faces.  SE calls it a "steering wheel."  They look exactly the same.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: SE New technology

What I mean Scott is, I see it more as a re-use of an existing tool (the rotate face tool which I thought was kind of useless for me anyway) than a straight copy from a competitor. The control handle looks almost identical to the rotate tool.

So, no one screaming yet about the interface change? winky smile

RE: SE New technology

I just spoke with GTAC on another issue but asked about V21 while I was on the line. One of the things he mentioned was that we can chose to model parts the same way we have been (sketches and tree,acts like V20). So no screaming yet.

RE: SE New technology

Oh, I wasn't refering to Synchronous Technology, rather to the fact that the graphical interface is obviously changing with V21. If you've seen Office 2007, or lately Autocad 2009, you'll know what I mean.

- Norm

RE: SE New technology

Well every program gets Vistified these days so we'll just have do deal with it.

Apparently we also have a side effect of the synchronous technology:

Quote:

But one concrete thing Goulden liked about Synchronous is the average 17% file size reduction that makes design less taxing on computer hardware and memory.
Source:
http://www.designnews.com/blog/130000213/post/1310026931.html

17% is not too shabby.

RE: SE New technology

Everyone I talked to is just keeping an open mind with the new interface.  Change happens, nothing you can do but adapt and overcome.  With the new UI and Synch Tech, SE is like a brand new program.  The (re)learning curve is going to be enormous for some.

But that's what I like about the SE community.  The Works community was up in arms about the UI change in 2008 even before they had a chance to use it.  Then, after it came out and they used it for a couple weeks, they liked it.  What's the point of making all that drama if you're just going to stick with the program anyway?  Not very professional, if you ask me.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: SE New technology

Swertel, I've got to be honest and say for our place the relearning curve could be a big issue.  This is one of my concerns.  I'll get on and learn (if I get the chance, don't spend as much time on CAD these days) but there are others that will just complain & pitch a fit.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SE New technology

Hey I'm always up for a challenge. When we had to decide what software to purchase, for 4 months I was juggling with SW, SE and Inventor all at the same time. An interface change doesn't scare me, but I know what you mean, KENAT, some people are so set in their ways, they don't like to have their routine disturbed.

RE: SE New technology

Yeah, I'm talking about people that can't get over the fact we have SE and they used to use Pro E or SW at former employers (or companies that were acquired by the current one).

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SE New technology

We have one of those guys at my current company, and he's a recent hire to boot.  I'm sitting on a configuration control committee with him now, and one of the things we do is to make sure our current engineering and design tools (SE being one of them) is compatible with our proposed system.  His response to all of those "SWX does that just fine."  Implying that we should switch from Edge to Works.  My canned response it, SE works too and we won't have the cost to convert all of our legacy data.

We also have the one old timer (forgive my reference) that has been meaning to retire for the past 2 years, but hasn't yet.  He's one of those that moans every time we roll to a new version of Edge, even without any major user changes.  I think this one will get him to retire.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: SE New technology

Yep "SWX (or Pro E) does/did that just fine" is a mantra to them.

I'm torn, I'm excited (well as excited as I get by a CAD program, which isn't very) by the buzz enough to want to learn more but am so concerned at the impact it will have here that I dont' want to hear it mentioned.  I'm gonna go bury my head in the sand!

 

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SE New technology

"SWX (or Pro E) does/did that just fine"
It's usually garbage - they are'nt any better than SE, it's just that they don't know what they're doing.
 

bc.
CAD2 Imagine Workstation
2.4GHz Core2 Quad, 4GB RAM,
Quadro FX4600.

RE: SE New technology

"Yeah, well my CAD is bigger than your CAD and he's going to come over to your house tonight and beat him up."

Somedays, when I talk with CAD users, I feel like I'm talking to 3rd graders.  IT'S A FRICKIN' TOOL PEOPLE, NOT A SPOUSE!  If it does the job, use it; if it doesn't, can it.  Some people's affinity towards certain software packages just confuses me.  I knew a guy once who went unemployed for 6 months because he wouldn't take a job at an employer that didn't use Works.  I wanted to schmack him upside the head so far my head hurt.

And what gets me is that so many other CAD package users are stating that their CAD already does that.  Uhm, we SE users don't even know what the heck Synch Tech really is yet, how the heck do you know that yours already does that?  Well, I know what functionality they're referring to and I try to explain the difference.  But then the idiot brings me down to their level and beats me with experience.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: SE New technology

My philosophy is that software, especially cad packages, is a tool and is only as good as the person using it.
They all have their own idiosyncrasies, but hey! Don't we all.
People who prefer other packages are similar to people who laugh at a comedian because their friends laugh. It's all down to propaganda and marketing, he said! She said! Bull!

The right tool for the right job is the future :)
 

RE: SE New technology

Ell said swertel, although I have to admit I've turned down (well paid) jobs because I didn't like the CAD system - how I hate Catia V4 !!! machinegun

bc.
CAD2 Imagine Workstation
2.4GHz Core2 Quad, 4GB RAM,
Quadro FX4600.

RE: SE New technology

I heard that the Airbus A380 was designed with V4. Can't understand why, since V5 has been there so long...

RE: SE New technology

Wasn't the A380 in the news for the big screwup?

Some vendors were using v4, others were using v5.  Since the versions have completely different means of defining solid geometry, it required a translation to go between the two and the translation got FUBARred.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: SE New technology

Sorry, didn't mean to take this thread off topic by my last post(s).

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: SE New technology

Quote:

One thing springs to mind: these new model editing features are based on the PMI dimensions. Problem is, PMI was disabled on Solid Edge Model & Drafting and SE Foundation. Should we surmise that we'll have to upgrade to Solid Edge Classic to use synchronous technology?

I was on a ST seminar today and were told that PMI will indeed be made available in Foundation licenses so thats a relief.

A thing that I was not that happy about is that in Synchronous Technology there will be no way of making assembly features, so no more machining in an assembly mode and back to using phantom parts again, sigh.

 

RE: SE New technology

You can, but you need to make sure you use the classic assembly environment and not the ST environment.  Of course, this should be changing with future revisions, just don't know which one.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: SE New technology

Yea I forgot to add that it's not totally gone, but one of the major advantages with ST is the assembly editing (which got a lot of oooohs and aaaahs at the seminar) and loosing that just to be able to make a hole is somewhat annoying.

But as you say, this will probably be implemented in the future.

RE: SE New technology

I cannot for the life of me find a release date for the new SE other than a very general "summer 2008". Does anyone have anything more specific?

Thanks,
Martin

RE: SE New technology

2
To all, I have had the opportunity to see SE ST in person and here is why I looked and what I saw. My current cadcam program is VX cadcam. After 4 years I still cannot open DWG files correctly and they still do not have a post out of the box for my Haas mill without having hollered at support to get one. And there are still problems with tool paths. For the money the over all value of VX is merely OK as I could get SE Classic and Visualmill for the same amount of money basically and be way ahead on capabilities. These long standing problems are why I am looking at other programs. Took  a few DWG's that VX could not open right with me to the demo and pulled out the flashdrive, handed it to the demo guy and said "open these please". They were flawless and a beautiful thing to a guy who has suffered to long with VX. Next up was a part that earlier in the week I had to alter by .04" in length. Now with VX this would have been about a 25 minute job as I stepped through the history from the sketch that had to be altered to the end of the process. Handed that file to the demo guy and from the time he loaded it till he was done editing the part was roughly 3 minutes. Now this was a simple part admitedly but you know when you think about it many parts in job shops are and the time savinge to me was considerable. I have a tube with 3660 2mm holes in it for a screen. In VX when I do the pattern command to extrude remove the remaining 65 rows of holes it takes my workstation, a dual core Xeon5150 with an Nvidia quadro 3500 card and 4 gig ram with the 3gig switch on about 27 minutes to finish this command. The demo guy took his laptop that was not even of workstation quality and with provided dimensions MODELED the whole part from begining to end in a little over 12 minutes. He told me that the history tree was a considerable bottleneck compared to the ST stuff and what he showed me with parts that he had never seen before made a believer out of me. Oh, by the way he was appologising to me for having to fumble aropund a bit on this as it was still new to him. The translators appear to be robust and migrating IGES files to SE from VX looks to be no problem as it imported an assembly with with sheetmetal, tube frames, and misc hardware-around 100 pcs total in assembly- with no issues and also the above mentioned tube. Now the tube import into SE was slow and I have to tell you that it took about the same time to import as it did for him to do it from scratch. But that was the ONLY negative thing I saw and I will be getting a seat of this when it comes out. My advice, keep your cam program and ditch the cad for SE.  

RE: SE New technology

Hi lapuser,
A star for your post.
Nice to hear from someone who has actually seen it working.
I can see the new funcionality being of great benefit, especially to new users.
However, I am still concerned about what happens to the profile of a feature after it has undergone later manipulation with ST.

bc.
2.4GHz Core2 Quad, 4GB RAM,
Quadro FX4600.

RE: SE New technology

Beachcomber, I would have to say I am not a new user and what I have seen is tremendously exciting. SE appears to be very efficient to me and if it is simple enough to be used by newbies to that is a good thing as it will reduce my learning time also. I can't answer your question now as I don't have a seat yet but if you wish I will try to get an answer for you. Are you asking if there is still a usable profile at all times? What specificaly is your concern. Thanks for the star by the way and glad to be of help.   

RE: SE New technology

The new technology appears to be a form of direct editing, where you can pull faces and features into new positions etc.
What I would like to know is, if a feature is fully positioned by it's profile sketch, what happens to that sketch when the feature's shape/position is changed using the new technology. If it does not change then I think that is very dangerous because it no longer accurately represents the feature.
If it gets updated or disappears then OK.
One of the example videos shows a set of bosses in a molded part being stretched very quickly using ST, as opposed to modifying the sketch and rebuilding the model, but it doesn't show what's happened to the sketch.
To me it's not a question of a usable profile, but an accurate profile.
Hope this makes sense.

bc.
2.4GHz Core2 Quad, 4GB RAM,
Quadro FX4600.

RE: SE New technology

beachcomber ... Deelip Menezes has written a series of reviews on SE-ST.

http://www.deelip.com/2008/07/solid-edge-with-synchronous-technology_10.html

Quote:

In a traditional parametric modeler, you can edit a feature by specifying new values for it's parameters. For example, for an extrusion feature, you can modify the extrusion distance and the feature will be updated. You cannot do this with a feature in Solid Edge ST. This is because the features here are dumb and have no parameters to edit. The only way to change the extrustion distance is to pull/push the face you extruded in the first place or set up a dimension and edit the dimension. The features in Solid Edge ST are merely a collection of related faces that make up the feature. They do not even know which sketch was used to create them. You can go ahead and delete all the sketches in a part and the model will hold up just fine.

cheers

RE: SE New technology

Thanks for that link CBL - it's a very interesting article and does, I think, answer my question.
If I understand it correctly, in ST there is no longer a profile to edit, and if the feature was created from a sketch, the link to the sketch has been removed.
This was not really apparent on the videos I had seen.
Having tried SpaceClaim and CoCreate PE, which are both direct modelers, in my opinion it was hard work trying to figure out actual sizes and hence how far to move/rotate faces.I was always having to measure distances.
I thought SpaceClaim was the better system and was really clever, but still not quite there.
Now with ST I can put driving dimensions on and get the best of both worlds.
I just hope I get chance to use it !

bc.
2.4GHz Core2 Quad, 4GB RAM,
Quadro FX4600.

RE: SE New technology

I've been told from my var that if you insert dimension during the profile creation with ST they will convert imediately to a PMI dimension that you can use later. So even if the sketch isn't there anymore, you can still make a modification by only changing a dimension and without having to push/pull a set of faces.

During the demonstrations they were specifying the benefits of inserting the driving dimensions at any given time. Instead of, by example, defining the lenght of a part before knowing what it needs to be.

Patrick.

RE: SE New technology

w00t! Solid Edge ST has been released!

Thought it would be a good idea to bring back this thread...

For all of you who have a maintenance key, it's available for download of the GTAC site.

Cheers,
Martin

RE: SE New technology

One of my colleagues is on a ST course next week.
I don't think they will send me because I am a contractor
cry

bc.
2.4GHz Core2 Quad, 4GB RAM,
Quadro FX4600.

RE: SE New technology

Hi All, Got a great deal on a seat of SE Classic from Engineering Methods and I must say that I am excited and fedex say's I will get it today. Perhaps in a month or so I will be able to give my initial impressions of it here. This is a brand new program to me though so it will take a while to get up to speed I am sure. Yes I am excited. Of course I am leaving VX cadcam because of major issues that never seem to get fixed and hope that I am just not aquiring a new feature set of these problems from a different vendor. Time will tell.

RE: SE New technology

Welcome to the forum lapuser,
It will be interesting to get the views of a new user, although you are not exactly starting from scratch. You will have to do a bit of "unlearning" your previous cad system.

bc.
2.4GHz Core2 Quad, 4GB RAM,
Quadro FX4600.

RE: SE New technology

Yes that is for sure. Found that out when I went from Surfcam to VXcadcam and at least when you learn to do this once the next time is easier. There is just so much more functionality with Se though that I know I am embarking on a year plus project. And I will post as time and learning permits to let others know my impressions of SE.

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