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Anyone else fall into this trap?
11

Anyone else fall into this trap?

Anyone else fall into this trap?

(OP)
I have been at my company for almost 2 years.  I have recently been given projects of my own to run.  I do all the design and detailing, coordination with architect, etc.....
I used to be given specific tasks and have to design stuff -connections, flexible wind connecions, shearwalls, foundations, etc.  I was very efficient and good at that.  Now that I am being afforded more responsibility, I find myself not wanting to do all this extra leg work (read non-engineering work).  I understand that coordination with architectural drawings and making sure my column baseplate will fit inside their wall is important, it just isn't as important to me. I know it is part of the job, it just doesn't seem like engineering to me and I really don't get enjoyment out of it.
While I am doing a good job and being relatively efficient, I'm definitely not as efficient as I was  (or would like to be) when I was just doing design.
Has anyone else experienced this?  How have you handled it?  Do you have any advice to get me back on track?

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Believe me when I say I am trying to be helpful and constructive here... Please sit back and read this sentence again and think about it:

"I really don't get enjoyment out of it."

 

-Plasmech

Mechanical Engineer, Plastics Industry

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Everyone likes to be a rock star, no one wants to be the roadie.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

There's nothing necessarily with not enjoying it.  However, you need to look to the future as well.  People's temperments change, so you might enjoy this sort of work later on.  And, you need to see if 20 yrs from now, whether you want to be competing with the young bulls on the same jobs, at lower wages.

You say you're less efficient, but you're not using the right benchmark.  If you are as efficient or better, than someone else doing the same planning/execution job, then you are at least as efficient in your new capacity.

The question of efficiency gets back to the first point.  Efficiency is piece-part mindset.  Do you want to be a piece-part worker all your life? Or do you want to move up the food chain.  It's your choice, but it needs to be conscious and well-thought-out choice, since the ramifications are far reaching.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

StructuralEIT,

I understand where you are coming from as I had similar contemplation when I was at your stage.

What you have to realise is that your apparent efficiency at the previous design role was probably largely due to your superiors 'laying the tracks' so to speak. Someone has to do all these other tasks and it might as well be you.

All jobs have aspects that we dont like, even the really glamourous ones.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

I've seen/see a lot of Engineers who seem not to like the 'bigger picture' aspects.

Unless they are real technical experts this seems to limit their prospects somewhat.

I've shot past more experienced guys that weren't willing/inclined to do this.

Do I enjoy making meeting minutes/action lists, creating Purchase Reqs, chasing purchase reqs, coordinating ECOs, making project plans, reviewing SOW, writing technical responses.... for the most part NO!

However the fact I do them, and do them if not well then at least adequately has paid off in some larger than average pay raises, and surviving lay-offs.

Basically, suck it up.  Decide that you are going to excel at it and do so.  Find ways of speeding it up/making it easier etc.  An example for me is ECOs, I hate doing them, see them as a waste of my time (not sure you need a degree to write one) and can't stand the way they are handled here but, I've learnt to prepare them as well as if not better than anyone else in Design.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Lose your fear of tedium.  Engineering is details.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

It's that way, as you gain more responsibility you do less number crunching. As my boss once put it, to progress you have to do more than "size beams".

About half my time is devoted to "non-engineering" tasks realted to coordination, review of drawings for non-technical issues and project management.
 

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

"Basically, suck it up.  Decide that you are going to excel at it and do so.  Find ways of speeding it up/making it easier etc."

KENAT, well said..., a star from me.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

(OP)
Well, I already planned on sucking it up.  I was just wondering if others have experienced the same sort of disconnect during their transition and, if so, get some ideas for how to be better at a part of my job that I'm not enjoying right now.  
 

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

3
StructuralEIT -

From one structural to another - here's my view:

I once had a guy on my staff come to me (after about 2 years or so of experience) and say, "Man, I've scrambled around all day on the phone, talking with our architects, getting some meetings set up.  I haven't had a chance to do any redlines today at all.  I feel so...so...inefficient."

My response to him was that he needed to stop measuring efficiency by how many redlines he pumped out each day, or by how many beams he designed.  

As you grow in your field, you are simply experiencing an expanding of your role as an engineer, which isn't:  all technical all the time.

We all face the challenge of remaining true to our technical side (staying up with the codes, etc.) all the while learning how as an engineer we bring enormous value to a project by leading, managing, communicating, coordinating, etc.  

I always described this challenge as similar to Wiley Coyote on his rocket roller skates, coming up on a large chasm, one foot on one side and the other foot on the other side.  One side represents the technical realm of engineering and the other side the management/leadership side.  The chasm gets larger and larger and for a while, old Wiley can spread his legs to stay on both...but at some point he will have to choose, or fall.

Some folks stay technical only.  That's fine if that's what you enjoy.  Some firms allow for technical track careers, many don't reward them at all.

 

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Here's a slightly different perspective on what you are encountering.  

If you are worried about coordinating with the architect as to whether your structural element fits into his wall, you need to ask, "What is holding the building up?"  Your member or his wall.

Coordination goes both ways.  In my opinion, your designed structure takes precedent over his wall.  Let him chase you and coordinate instead of you chasing him and coordinating with him.  That keeps you from excessive "non-engineering work".  When push comes to shove, his wall is going to move, not your column.

I recently had to coordinate with a structural engineer about beam penetrations.  Since his stuff was holding up the building and my stuff was only transporting the waste from the toilets, I chased him to coordinated.  He had enough on his plate making sure the structure was designed and calculated correctly to spend a lot of time determining if I had determined how many times I had to penetrate his structure.

Just my $0.02.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Structural EIT, I tried to express that yes I've experienced the same to some extent.  Sorry if it wasn't clear.

As to how to get better " Find ways of speeding it up/making it easier etc. "  was my advice.  For example, come up with templates/checklists etc. that work for you maybe even a standard layout for your design folder if your firm doesn't have one; work out a way of prioritizing your various tasks; find out if there are certain times of the day that are better for doing things.  Maybe the best time to make phonecalls is first thing, or after lunch before you get into the flow of things.

Sounds like a lot of what you need help with is effectively project management aspects, try looking in that forum.  forum768: -Engineering Project Management

If you can learn to be an effective project manager without selling out on the technical side then you will be a major assett to any company.

However, I now recall that you and I have had trouble getting the other to see our respective points of view before so will leave it at that, at least for now.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

I fell into that trap.  I feel exactly the same way as you.

I put pressure on my boss and superiors to get out of the project engineering side of things.  When I was hired I was told I'd be in a different role but a retirement around that time got me into the project eng. department.  So,  things have not worked out as I was hoping and now I'm looking for a new job.

I think 10-15 years from now I would like project mgmt jobs, bur right now it is not what I want to be doing.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Working as a Structural engineer is always technical, just because you are not performing calculations does not mean that you are not using structural engineering skills and knowledge.

In fact it requires a fluency in structural mechanics to be a good scheme designer and construction problem solver.

All the other things are just what is required to bring a good design into fruition.

It really depends on if you want to design structural members or if you truly want to design buildings. You cannot really claim you have designed a building unless you have done everything from start to finish.

I used to love doing calculations, now it is the problem solving that interests me. Calculations is just the way of proving that my solution works.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Why do you feel that having earned the trust of your employer, being given the opportunity to advance in your career, have more responsibility, interact with other professions and generally being on track for bigger and better things is a trap?

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

(OP)
mintjulep-
I didn't necessarily mean trap like they caught me in something I didn't want to do.  I just meant that the role is very different than what I expected.  Like I said, I am not complaining, I am ust looking for some ideas/advice from others who may have felt similar when making this transition about how to best get/stay motivated for these tasks that, at this point in time, aren't fun.

JAE & csd-
Star for both of you, I appreciate your input, as always.

Kenat-
My post about sucking it up was directed more toward umassengr.  I understand what you're getting at.  He picked that one line out of your entire post.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Structural EIT:

Please correct me if I am wrong here, but in another string of this forum, you recently posted some questions regarding going out on your own and starting an engineering  business.  Apparently, you are finding out right now that you do not like a portion of what that would take to succeed.  

I suggest you consider that when you start out, unless you can hire someone else right from the start to do the work you do not care for, you may not like going out on your own.  

Believe it or not, doing the other tasks you are talking about is really rounding you out into a better engineer.  It is a lot better than getting pigeon holed in to designing wing spars at Boeing for 40 years.  It will also help you diversify your structural expertise to pass your Structural Exam more easily when that day comes.  By the way... a belated congrats on your PE.  bigsmile

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

(OP)
I did pose a question regarding starting your own business.  That was more of a curiosity question.  I have always wondered how people make the decision to do that.  I wouldn't mind doing that someday, but I feel I am a long way away from that.
I hope you meant "Project Engineer" with the PE.  I am 2 years away from taking the structural PE exam.   

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

By the way the "Decide that you are going to excel at it and do so" didn't come from me originally.

My wife is a social worker.  When she first started her current job which has data-entry/accountancy aspects in addition to the social work she didn't think she'd ever get the hand of what they call "processing".  However after struggling the first time or two and wanting to give up she decided instead to just get on and learn to do it and be the best processer in the place.

Well, within a couple of years she was processing approximately 3X the average of the main office.

Goes to show that people can learn new skills in areas they wouldn't normally enjoy and still excell at them.  

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Engineering requires attention to details - all of the details.  You can design the best base plate ever but if, in the field, it does not fit into the constructed space, someone will look like an idiot.  If you've done your homework, that idiot will be someone else, not you.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

I was there once too.  

As I took on more responsibility, I found it challenging to work with the other disciplines and understand their problems and needs as well as mine and try to come to a solution that solves the problem instead of only my portion of it.  That might mean making a base plate fit and work, instead of just work, or providing framing that works with mechanical duct requirements where an inch can make the difference instead of just throwing a beam in there.  Look at it as a learning experience instead of drudgery, or as training to understanding what you're doing well enough to write/grade the test instead of take it.  

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

StructuralEIT:

Being in Washington, I assumed you had to pass your Civil PE test before you could take your Structural exam.  If that is true, passing the Civil portion would still make you a PE, just not an SE.  Or are things different where you live?  ponder

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

StructuralEIT -

I've been following your correspondence on here for quite some time.  Although I don't feel like I personally have the experience to state the following, I will anyway:  I think you're probably wise beyond your years.  

I'm not that far ahead of you, and I've had similar thoughts.  I'm being given more and more responsibility with every job.  We're a small office, and, to be honest, they need to me to step up to the plate.  Actually, I love it, and I don't think it's necessarily a trap -- I think it's more of a right-of-passage.  

CSD72 said it the best... it's easier to gain a sense of engineering accomplishment after you perform tasks handed down to you by someone who "laid the tracks."  Say your office just hired a new engineer, fresh out of school.  With your newly-found managerial responsibility, don't you feel like you could delegate some engineering work on your project to him/her?  Would you have your new engineer help with some modeling tasks, diaphragm analysis, foundation design, etc?  You might answer his questions, and sometimes  redo some of the work just to make sure it's correct.  That takes time.  All the while, you spend more of the time on the phone with the architect.  You're probably the one who has to respond to RFI's or attend VE meetings.  It's not grinding out calculations... it feels less like structural engineering in the sense that you don't have a discrete problem that you can resolve through calcs. But it's something that you have grown into.  It's a right of passage.  Remember when you were that "new engineer?"

My boss who has 40 years experience once told me to "be prepared once [I] get further into [my] career... only 20% of what we do is structural design (i.e. calculations, modeling, etc.), and the rest is absorbed by managerial tasks on the project.".  It might seem like an exaggeration, but I think there's validity to the statement.  

Perhaps ironically, the brunt of engineering design and calculation often falls onto the most inexperienced of engineers (under proper supervision, of course) -- it helps them grow the most, and leaves managerial tasks to those who have been around long enough to be able to handle those situations.

My $0.02.

  

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

StructuralEIT,

I think it is all about challenging yourself to become more proficient at what you do.  A structural engineer has to stay involved in all the "specific tasks", "designing stuff", etc.  But perhaps the most important skill you can develop is to be a good concept designer.  When you can take a project all the way through from seeing the architect's sketch plans, developing your own concept design, working through all the stages of project development, then participating in the construction stage, then you can truly call yourself an accomplished structural engineer, not just a designer.  And the ability to manage a project in this manner doesn't mean you have to become "management" as such.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

It sounds like you are having trouble checking your own work.  As you get more and more senior, you will have to check other people's work.  When I was the design team leader for 12 engineers, and the person appointed by the company to check their work, I could spend a day checking a valve schedule against a pipe schedule and P&ID to make sure everything was going to fit correctly.  There could be a thousand valves, and I wanted to be happy that every single one of them was going to be delivered correctly and not delay the construction.

I am not a structural engineer, but your concerns about the column base plate fitting in the architect's walls and not being interested in it is worrying.  Engineering is about coming up with problems and incompatablities and finding solutions to these problems within your constraints.  As long as you have a different set of constraints for each project, the work is fresh.  Wanting to ignore the constraints is trying to get away from the creative side of engineering, and just being a number cruncher.  I can't think of anything worse than being a number cruncher for my 45 years professional life.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

rcooper makes a good point, you will eventually get sick of doing the calculations.  

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Being able to pass on the "busywork" torch along to someone else is something that I would think almost always takes a lot more than 2 years to happen, and often times it may never happen.

Are you 2 years out of the university?

-Plasmech

Mechanical Engineer, Plastics Industry

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

(OP)
mike-
I only have 2 years of experience, I need 2 more years to take the PE.  Here in PA (Philadelphia), we don't need to take the Civil PE, we can take the Structural I.  That is what I plan to take.

rcooper-
I don't have any problem checking my work.  The biggest problem I have with all of the coordination is that you don't need to be an engineer to determine what size anything will fit in the wall.  You just have to be an engineer to size it.  That was just one example in a sea of things.  Again, I am not complaining.  I am just at a point where I do still enjoy doing calcs.  I certainly don't want to do that forever, but right now I enjoy it.  The whole point of the post was to find out if others have gone through a similar experience (which it seems like most have), and get some advice for people who have been there (which, again, I have).

Plasmech-
Correct, I am 2 years out of school (and currently in a grad program).
 

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

I also agree with rcooper in that I find it hard to get motivated to do mundane calculations anymore.   Gets to be like a dentist drilling teeth - boring.

I do like diversity.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

Engineering also teamwork. I have done all the jobs I've hated doing and thought it would define my life. I spent two years doing nothing but connection designs of wall plate brackets to seismic design.......I could sleep now for remembering...

Wake up!There is always a bigger picture.

I specialised for many years as foundation specialist for pumps, recips and turbines and also design of structures to explosions.

Now many years on, I don't do designs, I manage the team. As an engineer, you do drift out of specialism but you are armed with confidence, perception and the smarts. If don't want to manage people and projects then you have to make an extra effort to retain your technical blinkers. I wouldn't be able to recognise myself if I take myself ten years back.

Otherwise everything is another detail and a stepping stone in experience to something completely different.

Robert Mote
www.motagg.com

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

StructuralEIT, where do you work and where are you doing your grad work?  I'm in the Phila. area also.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

For what it's worth -

The first three months of my first job were spent issuing drawings, logging in/filing drawings as they returned from the shop and making blueprints.  Then I was allowed to make drawing changes in addition to the other stuff.  It was at least a year before I actually started designing new gizmos - on vellum.  The only computer we had in engineering was a Sperry/Univac with the 5Mb platters.  (Had a mouse get in there once - not pretty.)  I felt the same way as StructuralEIT - all that sacrifice to get an engineering degree, for this?   

My first job certainly taught me humility which I think has served me well in my career.  You need to pay your dues in any field before you get to where you want to be.  

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

(OP)
PEInc - If you have a more private way to contact you, I'll let you know.  I'm not super keen about posting information about my employer or my university on here.

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

PEDARRIN2,
I wish all consultants thought like you. Most MEP firms could care less if a beam is in there way. They figure its made of steel or concrete, why wouldn't they be able to just cut it in the field? Oh, we can't just cut huge openings by columns in a conrete building, but come on this stuff is hard! No joke, serious comments from MEP firms.

If only the world of coordination worked as simply as you do it for your clients. Usually coordination falls to the SER because in the end, his stuff goes in first, and when other people's stuff doesn't fit, it is somehow his fault, regardless if the beam/column/wall,etc. is supporting the building.


StructuralEIT,
I'm in the same boat as you. I graduated in May 2006 and have been doing structural design for almost 2 years now. I find it such a struggle to look at every little detail and frustratingly un-detailed architectural section to confirm I've coordinated everything. I'm still amazed at my boss' ability to do this as relatively quickly as he does. I feel like it just sort of comes with experience, like many others have said before.

It is exciting to do this stuff, and actually get into the details. I think it is a welcome break from the often monotonous world of structural design.

That's how I see it down here in DC.

RC
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
    Edmund Burke

 

RE: Anyone else fall into this trap?

JAE's message is right on track.

I once worked for a large international firm in a relatively high technical position.  Our CEO came to our branch office to give one of those corporate "pep talks" and stated that "technical people need to get with the administrative program, particularly the older ones who think they don't have to follow the rules.  Technical people can easily be replaced". This was a firm that had, for many years, touted equivalent technical and management career paths.  That was obviously changing at a rapid pace.  Being one of those who greatly enjoys the technical challenges over management challenges, I opted to resign, since I disagreed vehemently with his premise and philosophy.  I do not regret that decision in the least.

At this stage in your career, you need to experience a variety of exposures; whether technical, management, or client interaction.  You might find that it is sometimes more challenging to solve a client's global engineering problem than it is to solve a technical problem in the confined scope of the analytical design.

Engineering is not always a numerical solution.  It can take many forms and have many methods of solution.  Your engineering education taught you not only the numerical problem solving techniques, but in the process you learned to think.  Clients will pay dearly for that learned thought process, properly applied to solving their problems, with or without a numerical solution.

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