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welding procedure qualification

welding procedure qualification

welding procedure qualification

(OP)
Guys, please offer your suggestion.

Base metal in PQR: P1-Group 1 TO P1-Group 2
Base metal in WPS: P1-Group 2 TO P1-Group 2

Welding process: SMAW

Impact test is required.

Can I use the above mentionen PQR to support this WPS, if I use ASME IX?

For my understanding, in ASME IX, PQR base metal should have the same P number and Group Number as the WPS base metal, if impact test required.

Please advice. thanks.

RE: welding procedure qualification

No. See QW-253  QW-403.5 in Article 2 of Section IX, a change in group number on the WPS requires re-qualification for impact qualification.

RE: welding procedure qualification

I'm on an oil & gas project where we have stainless steels, 304H, 304L, 316, 316L, and 321.

As these are all P8 numbers, could a weld procedure qualifcation in one of these qualify the rest and satisfy ASME IX requirements?

RE: welding procedure qualification

Yes.

RE: welding procedure qualification

Metengr,
With all due respect, I don't see why the PQR using P1 Gr 1 welded to P1 Gr 2 wouldn't support a WPS for welding P1 Gr2 to P1 Gr2.  I agree that Gr # becomes an essential variable when impacts are req'd, but, in this case, he has that covered in the PQR.
I routinely qualify procedures using SA516 material which is dual certified as Grade 60 and Grade 70, taking impacts in only one HAZ.  Per ASME Sec IX, Any PQR qualified in the above manner will support WPS' for Group 1 to Group 2 material.  

RE: welding procedure qualification

weldtek;
Good catch, my mistake. You are correct regarding the PQR that would support both Group 1 and Group 2 materials.

RE: welding procedure qualification

(OP)
weldtek,

I found the following in ASME IX QW-403.5. Is it the same as what you mentioned dual certificate?

"In addition, when base metals of two different P-Number Group Number combinations are qualified using a single test coupon, that coupon qualifies the welding of those two P-Number Group Numbers to themselves as well as to each other using the variables qualified."

Thanks.

RE: welding procedure qualification

(OP)
weldtek,

If I change the PQR and WPS base metals as follow:

PQR: P1-Group 2 TO P1-Group 2
WPS: P1-Group 1 TO P1-Group 2

Can I use this PQR to support the WPS (Impact test required)?

thanks

RE: welding procedure qualification

No.  See QW 403.5 first paragraph underneath item (c).  If I was you, I would seek some qualified assistance rather than trying to get ASME IX interpreted for you on here.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

sw008,
In response to you earlier post.  More or less.  Basically by the rules in Sec IX you must impact test each group number.  So, as SJones says, the example in your second post won't work because you tested Group 2 to Group 2 and now want to weld on Group 1 material.  What test would represent the Group 1 material?
Under certain very specific condotions, QW403.5 does allow
a test on Group 1 to Group 1 and a test on Group 2 to Group 2 to cover Group 1 to Group 2, but, my thought is, why do that when one test will cover it.
There is more than one way to accomplish this.  You can simply run a test assembly using one piece of Gr 1 welded to another piece of Gr 2 and impact test each HAZ, or, going back to my earlier post,  select material that is dual certified as SA516-60 and SA516-70 and test just one HAZ.  Same result, less cost.
 

RE: welding procedure qualification

Dual certified SA516- 60/70 is quite common.

RE: welding procedure qualification

And one of the favorite materails of us welding types that are lazy and don't want to do any more procedure qualificaitons than required.

RE: welding procedure qualification

Might set the certification people off though.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

SJones,
??

RE: welding procedure qualification

ASME II, Part D, Appendix 7, 7-240.  For the purposes of ASME IX, it would appear that one has to pick one grade or the other as they have different group numbers.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

SJones,
See Interpretation IX-92-70.   

RE: welding procedure qualification

I should have included this in my last post;
IX-92-70
Q When a procedure qualification with supplemental notch toughness requirement is conducted with one P number material having multiple certifications in different group numbers, are WPSs qualified for all combinmations of group numbers?
A  Yes.
Q In the above question, does one set of HAZ impact specimens, when required, satisfy the requirements of Sec IX?
A Yes.
FYI, there are additional questions answered in this interpretation regarding testing of different P numbers which I didn't include.  

RE: welding procedure qualification

Weldtek - good work in expanding the thread.  However, the quoted interpretation really appears to go against the concept of grouping which, I assume for P1 materials, is based principally on specified minimum(strength) values.    

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

SJones,

"However, the quoted interpretation really appears to go against the concept of grouping"

On the contrary, the interpretation clearly states that a material with multiple certifications in different group numbers, ie SA516-60,65,70 which covers P1 groups 1 and 2, may be used to qualify a procedure on all combinations of those group numbers.  ie SA 516-60 Gr 1 to itself and SA516-70 Gr 2 to itself, and SA516-60 Group 1 to SA516-70 Group 2.
The second question backs this up in confirming that only one HAZ has to be impact tested to qualify the above group numbers singly or in combination.
  

RE: welding procedure qualification

What it clearly states is clear! What it also does would appear to go against the grouping system.

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

SJones,
My only suggestion is that you acquire a copy of the entire interpretation, sit in a quiet area and carefully read it.   

RE: welding procedure qualification

No problem Weldtek - plenty of other reading to keep me occupied.  Interpretation, or no interpretation, still appears to undermine the fundamental basis of groups and design. I'll just close my side by saying that if a PQR with this approach lands on my desk - it will get rejected (interpretation or not, as the end user I call the shots!)

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

Here is my two cents....
Rather than the interpretation going against the concept of grouping, it is clear that "multiple certifications" of a material goes against the concept of grouping.

What was not indicated in the quoted interpretation weldtek offered was this; The interpretation came out initially on September 23, 1993 and was revised on June 4th 2001 to add the following note.
Note: The term "multiple certifications" as used means any material for which a material test report indicates that the material meets all the requirements of two or more specifications, grades, types, or classes.
It is either classified as one material spec or the other. When you base your design on a material, or document a material on a Procedure Qualification Record, you can only choose one. Design and Qualification records can not be based on two materials. A separate document for each is required. I would never accept a document that references two material specs either in design or on a PQR.

RE: welding procedure qualification

Quote:

It is either classified as one material spec or the other. When you base your design on a material, or document a material on a Procedure Qualification Record, you can only choose one. Design and Qualification records can not be based on two materials. A separate document for each is required. I would never accept a document that references two material specs either in design or on a PQR.

Maybe a little clarification is on order after re-reading the last statement.
There can be only "one" material specified in a design. If utilizing material in a design that is dual certified, additional notes need to be readily apparent to the user. For a PQR, the same would apply.

RE: welding procedure qualification

As a fabricator we often have customers that want certain conditions met, which are over and above Code requirements, and / or additional specifications followed, and, we have no problem with complying with these requests provided that those requests have been included with the request for bid.  If not, we're happy to comply but there will be a cost adder.

RE: welding procedure qualification

Sjones, Codejackal,
I'm having a hard time understanding your position that the ASME interpretation is going against "grouping", & I'm trying to figure out your reasoning, so please bear with me.

Given the situation that a weld procedure qualification test plate was welded where the mill that produced the plate certifies the materail as ASME SA516 Gr. 70  (P1 Group 2), AND ASME SA516 Gr. 65 (P1 Group 1), which of the following would be acceptable:

1. If "grouping" is not allowed, would it be required to weld a second test, completely seperate from the first test with materail cut from the exact same plate and have 2 PQRs from two weld tests?

2. Is it just a paperwork issue (i.e "I would never accept a document that references two material specs either in design or on a PQR."), and you could generate two PQRs from the same weld test as long as one PQR was for P1 Group 1 and the other PQR was for P1 Group 2?

3. You could never use the same plate for qualifying procedures for two groups regardless of what the plate is certified to or how many tests are run.

RE: welding procedure qualification

In my opinion, it is scenario number 2 because it is only a paperwork issue. My position is that additional notes need to be readily apparent to the user.

RE: welding procedure qualification

If I order Gr60 and get Gr70 properties was it by luck or by design?

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

In this case, I am assuming that the weld test plate material was intentionally ordered with certs for both grades.

RE: welding procedure qualification

Then is the 'design intent' not to have the higher grade with the higher material grouping with a fortuitous bonus of covering a lower grade simultaneously?

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

Steve,
I'm not sure quite what you mean by 'design intent' as it relates to the PQR.  The intent of the questions (i.e. the imaginary PQR) would be to do one welding test that qualified for P1 group 1 and P1 group 2 since the plate was certified to both group numbers.  I don't think the 'higher' and 'lower' grade matter, only group numbers for PQR purposes.

RE: welding procedure qualification

Yes - but what determines group numbers?

Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/

RE: welding procedure qualification

ASME Section IX table QW-422.  I'm not trying to patronize, as I know you know that, but I'm not sure what your question is after.

RE: welding procedure qualification

There was a time when you ordered low strength Group 1 steels, you actually got what you ordered. Now when you order those same materials you get Group 2 materials. Blame the steel mills for the one size fits all carbon steels.

As a steel maker 35 to 40 years ago, we controlled the chemistry to meet the mechanical requirements and did not employ today's thermal/mechanical processing methods. By the late '70s the one size fits all steel making menatllity began to take hold and by the mid '80s fully established. Unfortunately, ASME IX is stuck in the past in this regard. The need to differentiate between Group 1 and Group 2 carbon steel materials is believed somewhat dubious at best.  

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