welding procedure qualification
welding procedure qualification
(OP)
Guys, please offer your suggestion.
Base metal in PQR: P1-Group 1 TO P1-Group 2
Base metal in WPS: P1-Group 2 TO P1-Group 2
Welding process: SMAW
Impact test is required.
Can I use the above mentionen PQR to support this WPS, if I use ASME IX?
For my understanding, in ASME IX, PQR base metal should have the same P number and Group Number as the WPS base metal, if impact test required.
Please advice. thanks.
Base metal in PQR: P1-Group 1 TO P1-Group 2
Base metal in WPS: P1-Group 2 TO P1-Group 2
Welding process: SMAW
Impact test is required.
Can I use the above mentionen PQR to support this WPS, if I use ASME IX?
For my understanding, in ASME IX, PQR base metal should have the same P number and Group Number as the WPS base metal, if impact test required.
Please advice. thanks.





RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
As these are all P8 numbers, could a weld procedure qualifcation in one of these qualify the rest and satisfy ASME IX requirements?
RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
With all due respect, I don't see why the PQR using P1 Gr 1 welded to P1 Gr 2 wouldn't support a WPS for welding P1 Gr2 to P1 Gr2. I agree that Gr # becomes an essential variable when impacts are req'd, but, in this case, he has that covered in the PQR.
I routinely qualify procedures using SA516 material which is dual certified as Grade 60 and Grade 70, taking impacts in only one HAZ. Per ASME Sec IX, Any PQR qualified in the above manner will support WPS' for Group 1 to Group 2 material.
RE: welding procedure qualification
Good catch, my mistake. You are correct regarding the PQR that would support both Group 1 and Group 2 materials.
RE: welding procedure qualification
I found the following in ASME IX QW-403.5. Is it the same as what you mentioned dual certificate?
"In addition, when base metals of two different P-Number Group Number combinations are qualified using a single test coupon, that coupon qualifies the welding of those two P-Number Group Numbers to themselves as well as to each other using the variables qualified."
Thanks.
RE: welding procedure qualification
If I change the PQR and WPS base metals as follow:
PQR: P1-Group 2 TO P1-Group 2
WPS: P1-Group 1 TO P1-Group 2
Can I use this PQR to support the WPS (Impact test required)?
thanks
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
In response to you earlier post. More or less. Basically by the rules in Sec IX you must impact test each group number. So, as SJones says, the example in your second post won't work because you tested Group 2 to Group 2 and now want to weld on Group 1 material. What test would represent the Group 1 material?
Under certain very specific condotions, QW403.5 does allow
a test on Group 1 to Group 1 and a test on Group 2 to Group 2 to cover Group 1 to Group 2, but, my thought is, why do that when one test will cover it.
There is more than one way to accomplish this. You can simply run a test assembly using one piece of Gr 1 welded to another piece of Gr 2 and impact test each HAZ, or, going back to my earlier post, select material that is dual certified as SA516-60 and SA516-70 and test just one HAZ. Same result, less cost.
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
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RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
See Interpretation IX-92-70.
RE: welding procedure qualification
IX-92-70
Q When a procedure qualification with supplemental notch toughness requirement is conducted with one P number material having multiple certifications in different group numbers, are WPSs qualified for all combinmations of group numbers?
A Yes.
Q In the above question, does one set of HAZ impact specimens, when required, satisfy the requirements of Sec IX?
A Yes.
FYI, there are additional questions answered in this interpretation regarding testing of different P numbers which I didn't include.
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
"However, the quoted interpretation really appears to go against the concept of grouping"
On the contrary, the interpretation clearly states that a material with multiple certifications in different group numbers, ie SA516-60,65,70 which covers P1 groups 1 and 2, may be used to qualify a procedure on all combinations of those group numbers. ie SA 516-60 Gr 1 to itself and SA516-70 Gr 2 to itself, and SA516-60 Group 1 to SA516-70 Group 2.
The second question backs this up in confirming that only one HAZ has to be impact tested to qualify the above group numbers singly or in combination.
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
My only suggestion is that you acquire a copy of the entire interpretation, sit in a quiet area and carefully read it.
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
Rather than the interpretation going against the concept of grouping, it is clear that "multiple certifications" of a material goes against the concept of grouping.
What was not indicated in the quoted interpretation weldtek offered was this; The interpretation came out initially on September 23, 1993 and was revised on June 4th 2001 to add the following note.
Note: The term "multiple certifications" as used means any material for which a material test report indicates that the material meets all the requirements of two or more specifications, grades, types, or classes.
It is either classified as one material spec or the other. When you base your design on a material, or document a material on a Procedure Qualification Record, you can only choose one. Design and Qualification records can not be based on two materials. A separate document for each is required. I would never accept a document that references two material specs either in design or on a PQR.
RE: welding procedure qualification
Maybe a little clarification is on order after re-reading the last statement.
There can be only "one" material specified in a design. If utilizing material in a design that is dual certified, additional notes need to be readily apparent to the user. For a PQR, the same would apply.
RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
I'm having a hard time understanding your position that the ASME interpretation is going against "grouping", & I'm trying to figure out your reasoning, so please bear with me.
Given the situation that a weld procedure qualification test plate was welded where the mill that produced the plate certifies the materail as ASME SA516 Gr. 70 (P1 Group 2), AND ASME SA516 Gr. 65 (P1 Group 1), which of the following would be acceptable:
1. If "grouping" is not allowed, would it be required to weld a second test, completely seperate from the first test with materail cut from the exact same plate and have 2 PQRs from two weld tests?
2. Is it just a paperwork issue (i.e "I would never accept a document that references two material specs either in design or on a PQR."), and you could generate two PQRs from the same weld test as long as one PQR was for P1 Group 1 and the other PQR was for P1 Group 2?
3. You could never use the same plate for qualifying procedures for two groups regardless of what the plate is certified to or how many tests are run.
RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
I'm not sure quite what you mean by 'design intent' as it relates to the PQR. The intent of the questions (i.e. the imaginary PQR) would be to do one welding test that qualified for P1 group 1 and P1 group 2 since the plate was certified to both group numbers. I don't think the 'higher' and 'lower' grade matter, only group numbers for PQR purposes.
RE: welding procedure qualification
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdoweb/
RE: welding procedure qualification
RE: welding procedure qualification
As a steel maker 35 to 40 years ago, we controlled the chemistry to meet the mechanical requirements and did not employ today's thermal/mechanical processing methods. By the late '70s the one size fits all steel making menatllity began to take hold and by the mid '80s fully established. Unfortunately, ASME IX is stuck in the past in this regard. The need to differentiate between Group 1 and Group 2 carbon steel materials is believed somewhat dubious at best.