ZDDP again
ZDDP again
(OP)
Just picked up several gallons of motor oil to restock from my annual oil change regatta---(well, it SEEMS like I'm sailing in a sea of oil by days end ;o( ---too many vehicles around here). I noticed that there are several brands of ZDDP additive available. Average price is around ten dollars. OK only for off road, racing, agricultural, etc.---Pre OBD stuff.
It looks like it might be the hot setup for some of our vintage, flat tappet cammed cars.
Anybody tried this additive lately? I'm still using, on my diesel and vintage engines, Castrol 20W-50 as it still (so far) has sufficient additive.
Rod
It looks like it might be the hot setup for some of our vintage, flat tappet cammed cars.
Anybody tried this additive lately? I'm still using, on my diesel and vintage engines, Castrol 20W-50 as it still (so far) has sufficient additive.
Rod





RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
I'm wondering about the suitability of high zinc oils for engine break-in. I know it's better for the valve train and high-contact pressure areas but is the ring/cylinder break-in improved or not?
I'm looking for a second opinion to back up or dispute what my resident engine expert is telling me. Thanks.
RE: ZDDP again
generally speaking you might say that they use the least amount of zinc possible to speed up the running in process, but still enough to withstand the loading in the valvetrain and the use as an antioxidant for the foreseen period.
if you are reconditioning engines yourself you can take the above as a guide - use the standard prescribed oil quality, perhaps one SAE grade thinner then is to be used later and gradually increase the load over time (if possible).
since drainintervals have gone up quite considerably over the last 20 years there is much less difference between service oils and running in oils then there used to be, also due to better manufacturing practices and materials the running in proces is far less critical nowadays then it used to be.
RE: ZDDP again
This much I do know for fact, the last two race engines I built last year (and the Lotus twincam I'm building now) have been run in on Castrol 20W-50 for the first warm up, about a half hour to an hour run in and tune up time. I then drain the entire system, accumulator, sump, heat exchanger and, the AN -10 lines, change the filter and, replace the lube with Redline synthetic race oil for all subsequent tune and dyno runs. To date, I have had ZERO problems...no unusual smoking or oil consumption problems and no unusual wear problems with flat tappets or DOHC.
Incidentally, I save the 'run in oil' and use it in my diesel truck...
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
I did notice that another reputable builder uses "straight low-ash low-detergent 30WT oil", instead of typical 40- or multi-weight, during their break-in process. No mention of zinc though...I assume by "straight" they mean non-multi-weight but it could be construed in reference to basic or low additive.
Are there any SAE or otherwise testing procedures for break-in testing? What would you be testing to be able to say an engine was broken in well or not?
RE: ZDDP again
I do this to flush break in and assembly contamination.
Light weight single grade makes sense as it has more slippery stuff and less additive than multi grade. Light weight flushes better.
I think anti scuff is an important characteristic in break in. I am not an expert in this field, but I would expect reasonably high ZDDP content improves anti scuff.
drwebb seems to be the expert on oil formulation. I would be interested in his views on anti scuff additives.
Regards
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RE: ZDDP again
in the reconditioning industry usually single grade oils are used for a short run in at the reconditioning plant and the engines are then shipped without oil to the enduser. the single grade oil is then usually filtered/centrifuged and used for quite some time in other rebuilt engines. in many plants the oil is seldom changed because they have sufficient top up to keep the quality at the required level.
for engine builders the actual criteria for "good" run in is that they do not get complaints about excessive oil consumption and that the engine reaches a lifespan that is greater then the warranty period. everything that happens after that is of no interest to the engine builder - but can ofcourse be important for the enduser.
i think that nowadays run in with modern engines is far less critical then it used to be - one important point to keep in mind is that, when due to poor run in, the lifespan of the engine is compromised, it will only show up when that point is reached - and that is usually many years after reconditioning.
ofcourse, when you as a reconditioner, get many complaints about excessive oil consumption or excessive valve train wear in the first year after rebuild, you might need to investigate whether there is something wrong with the way the engines are reconditioned, but generally speaking, with modern materials, the proces is not as critical as it used to be.
RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
As for ZDDP, the new engine oil categories still require passing a Sequence IVA test for cam wear protection regardless of the chemistry used, and the SM requirements are more stringent than previous SL category. This makes the worry in the field over chemistry sound to me reminiscent of the changeover from leaded- to low-lead and unleaded gas. If someone believes they need more ZDDP then any top treat will need to raise the P level of the oil from whatever it is to ca. 0.10-0.14%. Most top treat oils won't disclose their level of P, leading me to concur they are formulated to deliver more 'peace of mind' to their customers than active ingredients.
RE: ZDDP again
you are right that cost is very important when you only use the oil for a short period, as is usually the case in a reconditioning plant. european truckbuilders however now run their engines for a period of up to several hours before mounting it in a truck - where the oil may have to last for up to 100.000 miles in actual service.
there are therefore two types of "run in" oil in use - one that merely serves to check whether the engine is tight and meets the specification requirements and another type that after that test also has to perform in actual service for quite a while. the first type is very costeffective, the second is more likely a ful blown heavy duty diesel engine oil. the same applies to gasoline engines, although in europe nowadays only full spec gasoline engine oils are used.
it seems that the term run in oil nowadays means something different then it used to be, a better term would be initial fill oil for the engine builder and a "pure" run in oil for the reconditioner. the latter would have to last only a short term and therefore has to meet far less stringent specifications.
RE: ZDDP again
Gold is for the mistress - silver for the maid
Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade.
"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall
But iron - cold iron is the master of them all.
Rudyard Kipling
RE: ZDDP again
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
ZDDPlus additive www.mossmotors.com
I would guess it will sell as easily as the "oil for engines over 75,000 miles".
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: ZDDP again
Maybe 1% being optimum, and way better than 2% ??
RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
1) Service classifications are defined mainly by oil performance and not chemistry. That means that API-licensed engine oils must have passed stringent engine Sequence tests specifically designed to gauge cam wear. This is the technical basis for recommending the latest categories as "backwards compatible" to older engines designed around previous service categories. While phosphorus content is limited in the latest categories, there has been no lessening in requirements for demonstrated cam wear protection.
2) The anti-wear effects of ZDDP tends to saturate at fairly low treat levels. This means that only a small amount is 'active' at a time, so a significant portion in 'older' formulations was there for oil performance durability over the course of the oil drain intervals. Break-in service is normally a short interval, so probably not all the ZDDP in the old 1200 ppm P oils was necessary for break-in protection.
There are a few specialty marketers who cater to the 'more is better' formulation strategy and advertise very high levels of phosphorus or zinc in their formulations. You can find one of these and try for yourself. Since such products are available, if high ZDDP were an effective fix for HP cam break-in problems word would get out that they are the solution. As that apparently has not happened then I suspect oil performance is a convenient scapegoat when there is a problem, because it's something the hard parts guys claim they can't control.
RE: ZDDP again
Our current search is to find out what oil pressure they are running. I'm told the old Smokey Yunick 10psi/1000rpm is out and dry sump with as low as 35psi hot is in. The claim is a savings of 7 to 10 hp.
Anybody got a better take on this? That's waaaay lower than I am comfortable with even if it's true.
As an aside...The engine I am finishing up on this week will be 'broken in' on Redline Racing 50 synthetic. I've seen one of my competitors do it this way with no problems...sooo! The clearances are a bit looser on this engine than I customarily run, but I think will be better considering the engine oil also lubes the gearbox making the heavier oil a necessity. (It's a vintage Mini Cooper)
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
Race-based high-performance street engine oil.
Jack Roush, of Roush Fenway Racing, and Valvoline recently combined efforts to bring owners of performance vehicles Roush Motor Oil. Inspired by the race track and formulated for the road, it provides protection for both newer and older performance engines. Sold by the quart for a suggested retail of $7.99 each, the six blends are:
* SAE 5W-20; SAE 5W-30; SAE 5W-50: (API SM)
Fully synthetic engineered for extreme protection and superior performance. Advanced additive package for maximized horsepower, heat protection, and longer-lasting zinc/phosphorus anti-wear. SAE 5W-50 is the recommended oil for the Roush P-51A Mustang.
* SAE 10W-30 and SAE 10W-40: (API SL)
High zinc for classic high-performance engines, including protection for push-rod and flat tappet applications. Fully synthetic engineered for extreme protection and superior performance. Advanced additive package for maximized horsepower, heat protection, and longer-lasting zinc/phosphorus anti-wear.
* BREAK-IN OIL (SAE 40)
High zinc, conventional formula specifically designed to break-in and dyno high performance engines. Requires no additional additives. Also applicable for use in racing applications.
Older engines, and especially flat tappet or push-rod types, require high levels of zinc/phosphorous for added protection. Valvoline increased the level of zinc for the 10W-30 and 10W-40 grades, and in every grade used special low-volatility zinc, which helps to maintain higher levels of phosphorous in the oil instead of blowing it out through the catalyst. All six blends are now available through select retailers. For more information, visit ROUSH Motor Oil - Full Synthetic.
- By Matthew Litwin
RE: ZDDP again
http:/
What was true in 2006 or 2007 is not necessarily true today
RE: ZDDP again
Using Redline Racing 50...
The Mini engine, 1380cc at 14:1 CR has been running for two days and is, for all intent and purpose, the best we have done in this car. Power is up and pumping pressures are spot on, leak down is less than 3% all cylinders. No smoke, no excessive heat...Looks good. We will see after the first race.
No problems breaking in the rings with a full synthetic racing oil. Learn something new every day, even at my age.
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
Dan T
RE: ZDDP again
Start up was initially to 1500 rpm to check for, well, just to check everything. Run up to 3000 for initial warm up and then from 3000 to 5000 for about ten minutes. Initial dyno time...warm up as above and initial pull to 6000 to double check jetting, timing, whatever and then a couple of full power pulls to 7800 rpm (limited). Power was good as was everything else (knock wood)! These little BMC A series five port, three main engines are not exactly state of the art, but this one has been pretty good over the last two seasons. This particular engine is ~115 hp at the wheels.
This is for VARA vintage racing and even at that, the engine makes more power than we could get back in the 60's.
No problems, no smoke, no overheat, pumping pressure was
215-240-240-220 (Scatter pattern cam, #'s 1 and 4 have a different camshaft profile from 2 and 3) Leak down was <3% all four cylinders, checked after cool down.
Looks like I'll be using synthetic for break in from now on. Wish I could have found this a little sooner. I'm well into the twilight of my racing career...a few more year, maybe?
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
http://www.deves.com/faq.cfm
"Deves doesn't use anything other than a cast iron alloy for its compression rings. It's a little more flexible than cast iron and not as flexible as some of the other materials that are out there. We don't use chrome plating because it's much harder on the cylinder. Chrome plated rings are also more difficult to seat. The only time Deves has a chrome plated or coated ring is when the OEM manufacturer specifies it."
RE: ZDDP again
In other words, obsolete.
RE: ZDDP again
Still, it has worked just fine and I will probably use the same procedure the next engine as well.
As to the soft iron rings...this is a race engine that will get the usual break in as I described. When we take it to the track it will be given a couple laps to make sure something doesn't fall off and then...RACE TIME!!!
I try to change bearings every five race weekends (they are usually still ok) and rings every two seasons or ten race weekends whichever comes first.
To date, this latest rebuild is the third ring change and the first piston and rod change since 2004. Still no big wear on the cylinders requiring anything other than a clean up hone.
The biggest maintenance on the engine is keeping the valve finish up to my < 5% leakdown standard. Requires lapping the valves at least once a season and a complete valve job once every couple years.
Something of a time honored memory...A long time ago and in a place far, far away....Not really, it was in the early 70's and it was in Socal...A couple guys I worked with, Paul and Silas Pitman (twins) that race supercharged gassers, Paul did very well in funnycar as did his other brother KS from back east. Anyway, I was over to give Silas a hand in putting his 391 Hemi together and I watched him use jewelers rouge on the rings as he punched them in. Question (obviously) "Silas, what the heck are ya doin' there"? "Makes the rings break in quicker", says he!!!
Now, boys and girls, that is just not something I am comfortable doing...Then again, I don't drag race, either.
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
Page 54 here.
h
In that case the process is not so much breaking in the mechanical parts, but the distribution of the fancy grease within the high speed bearing that is absolutely necessary to keep heat generation remarkably low during operation. Running a brand new truly high speed grease lubed spindle without proper run in will trigger thermal runaway that can turn the bearings into stinking junk in less than a minute. But after run in the housing may never be more than barely warm to the touch.
I would have been interested in your cylinder walls' surface finish, roundness and taper
Iron non-faced rings are notoriously easy to "break in".
I'm thinking your engine's ring combo may be relatively more likely to seat well than some others. Speed Pro and TRW used to say the thin rails of iron exposed on most moly faced rings would ensure their quick seating. And that the rings were lapped during mfg to be pre-broken in, (visible on a new ring). Sounds like it is the cylinder that "breaks in" after all. Since Mahle bought them all up the tech info is getting danged hard to find. I'm quite nervous.
Here's some semi-vintage ring tech stuff with numbers.
ht
"Hone to finish size with 280 or 400 grit stones. When using an automatic hone such as the CK-10, rough sizing is done with 70 grit stones to within .003" of finished size. intermediate hone with 220 grit stones to within .0005" and finish to size with 280 or 400 grit stones.400 and 600 grit stones are available for both hand operated and automatic equipment, with the 400 grit working out
quite well when a smoother surface is desired. The 600 grit produces a very high polish which is the maximum
smoothness in cylinder wall finishing. Honing with the 600 grit becomes more critical due to the tendency to burnish
and pick up scratches - more prevalent as the surface smoothes out and the crosshatch pattern begins to disappear.
A highly burnished surface can be detrimental, resulting in non-uniform oil film distribution and slow
ring seating due to the slick surface.
Some people have the idea that a given manufacturer's No.500 stone is also 500 grit. Although it is true "the higher the number, the finer the grit", No. 500 is actually 280 grit, 300 is 220 grit, 200 is 150 grit and 100 is 70 grit. A good honing stone to use is a 280 grit for chrome top rings and 280 or 400 grit for moly top rings. If you are using hand operated equipment, the drill speed should be between 200 to 450 R.P.M. Saturate each cylinder wall and the honing stones with a good grade of honing oil. Kerosene, mineral spirits or a light bodied mineral oil can be used.
RE: ZDDP again
Well, you have come to the right place!!!
I measured the cylinders and they were all equal (at least as far as my measuring tools go). Bores are still round (tq plate is a wonderful tool) and have taper ranging from 0.0005" to 0.0006"---Now, by anybodies standards that is remarkable considering the time on the engine. Absolutely no "ridge" at the top of the stroke, just a short run with a 300 Varihone (sp) and I was done. (If your numbers are correct, would that make my old hone 220 grit? I haven't a clue, it's nearly as old as I am---In fact, nearly ALL my tools are as old as I am!). A "race weekend" is usually something like five hours engine time...it varies. I've done two two hour races so those weekends would end up something close to eight hours engine time. Total on this bore job is about 25 weekends plus about six or seven good pulls on the dyno. Not a lot of time by "real" race standards, but this IS vintage and I am anal about Zero Defects. I have reason to be a bit overcautious...if you have seen my incident on You Tube from 2003.
Just type in "vintage Mini crash" and watch me bounce.
Incidentally, my crew chief was a BMW certified tech and he said that he had seen new engines run in with synthetic. All I know is I have always been told not to do it as the rings would not seat (indeed, this is the first time)...I think they may have been a little "overcautious" to CTA???
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
That's it...Back to Castrol 20W-50 for break in. I'm really NOT too old to learn! I'm guessing that since it was only one cylinder out of the four that the problem can be traced back to the honing process. Since I did the honing and assembly, mea culpa!
I like to experiment a bit...I like to try things that others say cannot work---and MAKE them work! Didn't happen this time, sorry.
Rod
RE: ZDDP again
RE: ZDDP again
This does not mean, just because I had a failure that the process is flawed. I still attribute the failure to my lack of proper honing or break in procedure.
Rod