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Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"
7

Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
Ok, so I sent my resume to this one company a few days ago.  I think I match the experience they need pretty good.  I dont know what happened, but the person that received the email mistakenly replied/forwarded the email to me and said (direct quote) "Not sure, he looks pretty foreign, but has been here for a long time..."

I am from Asia.  I have been in the US for 12 years.  Went to undergrad and graduate school in the US.  Got my experience in the US.  I have a greencard.  What would you do if you were in my situation?  My wife (an attorney) thinks I should do something about it.  I feel that I should just let it go.  I did reply to her and pointed out her mistake and this is what she replied:

"I do thank you for pointing out my obvious ignorance. I do hope that you will accept my utmost apologies for my actions.
 
I have passed on your resume and someone will contact you if our manager feels you the experience that we are looking for.
 
Thank you again for your interest in our firm."

What do you guys think?

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Lots of thoughts on this one, but I don't want to make the reply 10 pages long...

First off, would the position require any form of clearance?  If so, the company is rightly concerned about what issues your foreigner status may have on projects they work on, getting clearance, etc.  All it takes is one long-lost family member to be in the wrong place at the wrong time to kill off a year-long investigation, and then the company is out all of that time/money.  The comment may have been taken out of context.

If not, then I would definitely say that comment was inappropriate.  That said, you have to consider what long-term effects it might have on your career to chase it down from a legal standpoint.  What if you sue and win (or worse, lose), only to have this company pass it along through the grapevine that you're a troublemaker.  Right or wrong, not everyone does what's ethical and/or legal, so you may have a hidden black mark on your resume from the beginning.  I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying you have to consider it.

If you decide to pursue this on the legal battlefield, you need to make up your mind NOW.  If they bring you in for an interview (and they may possibly do so just to protect their rears) but do not offer you a job, a lawsuit later for discrimination will look like sour grapes... you didn't get what you wanted, so you're going to make them pay.

Even so, if they don't offer you a interview, the burden of proof is still on you to prove the people responsible for hiring were prejudiced against you due to race.  That's not easy, even with a secretary's email like that.  You would have to show to the court that your experience was within line of other candidates and deserving of an interview, just like them.  Not impossible, but not necessarily easy.  If you're just coming out of school, it's even more difficult.

My first impulse would be "Sue the bastards!", but cooler heads and a night of rest might make me think more practically about the situation.  Still consider a lawsuit, but consider the possible consequences.  And get a GOOD lawyer.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

At first glance the statement...

"Not sure, he looks pretty foreign, but has been here for a long time..."

Could be argued (in court) to be either postive or negative.  (Of course we all know it's negative.)

But in light of the apology, I think you have an iron clad case of discrimination on the basis of National Origin.

You can tell by the apology that this particular person is sweating bullets and even the apology would maybe get her fired.

I personally would not work there, and probably would take it up with the EEOC
 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
Here is the thing, there is not one thing I listed on my resume indicating that I am a foreigner other than my rather unusual last name.  I didnt put my high school on my resume because I dont think it is necessary unless you are fresh from college.  I came to the country when I was 18 for college.  So all of my education and work experience were all in the US.

This is a lesson for everyone to check your email before you click  "send" button.  No the company mainly do shopping centers, schools, office buildings, etc.  Pretty sure they dont require any type of security clearance.

They want 4 years of experience, PE a plus.  I finished my grad school plus 5 years of experience (2.5 is design exp)and I do have a PE license.  All the computer programs they listed, I know how to use them (use it frequently).  There is no doubt I am qualified.  Plus they also do a lot of residential designs which is what I do right now.   

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
I do feel I want to make the world a better place.  I feel that if I file a complaint then the people who are effected by it would have a grudge against minority.  However, if I don't file anything, they may continue doing that on their hiring process. I am a mellow guy and don't usually get involved in confrontation.    

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

You may be right, but you can't litigate their attitude into place.

There are places that will treat you fairly.  Move along and find one.  Don't write off the company as a whole.  Every large company has its poor managers.  Sounds like you found one.

Hard to say what I would do exactly until it happens to me.  I probably would send them a reply indicating that I have lost interest because their attitude is not indicative of a healthy work environment.

I've been on the flip side of this, missing out on opportunities earmarked for quotas.  A fact that one sometimes has to live with.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Get a lawyer.  File suit.

They will pay big bucks to make it go away before going to court.

You get a nice pocket full of green, and everyone moves on.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
This is a small company.  I say no more than 8 people in the office.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Filing a suit may, likely will, make it impossible for you to work in this country in your chosen field ever again.

So the suit is only a good idea if you can win, and if you can then bag enough money to not _need_ to work ever again.

They don't have that much money.

 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

2
I'd file a complaint with the EEOC.  

Getting a lawyer and filing a suit may not be a good idea - lawyers cost BIG bucks and proving damages may be more difficult than you think.  

They may have violated Equal Employment laws, but as for a tort, they didn't necessarily do a huge amount of damage to you.

The verdict may end up that they pay a big fine to the government, they pay theirs and your lawyer fees, and you get a $1.00 judgement.

 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

JAE is right on.  If you think this was bad wait till you win a suit. No one will touch you with a 3 meter pole.  

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
Yeah, they will probably reply and ask me to come for an interview.  I would probably just say I am not interested anymore.   

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

The rules are different for small companies (under 20 employees) regarding "equal opportunity".  Basically, there are none.

Often, small companies are concerned about the complications of dealing w/ visa requirements and would rather not deal with it and avoid foreigners altogether.

Quote (COEngineer):

Never, but never question engineer's judgement
Why not?  I question everyone's judgment, including my own.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

COEngineer,

I would ignore the original comment, accept the apology, and move on.  She admitted that she was ignorant, and that is worse than being "foreign".  I doubt that this redneck attitude is representative of the company, but you will find out if you interview.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

I would file a complaint with the EEO and BBB for what it is worth.  At the very least, let them endure more scrutiny over their policies and potential bad managers.  To proliferate this when you have a chance to do something, however small, is just as tragic as their prejudice.

I hope you never have to encounter that again.

 

Regards,
Qshake
pipe
Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.
 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

3
Prejudice is every where, it includes ageism, sexism, religion and in fact, just about every "ism" you can think of; prejudices against fat people, people with tattoos, people with piercings (Ugh! being served in a supermarket by some spotty youth with bits of metal sprouting all over his face was not a pleasant experience for me), people who smoke cigarettes, people who don't believe in global warming (that one might change over time)people in SUVs, people on bicycles bad drivers. The list is growing all the time.

I'd also suggest we have all, no matter who we are or what our backgrounds, experienced some form of unreasoned prejudice against us.

We might not always call it prejudice. Frankly, in any working environment there are people I'd consider more dangerous and despicable because they can actively do one harm. The brown-nosers, the back stabbers. Those who just don't like us because we are smarter than they are or work harder or better.

We also most of us have done or said something stupid. I know I have. I like to think I have learned a little bit and moved on.

The real problem is not to treat every remark as indicating some deep rooted and reprehensible prejudice when it could be equally regarded as simply an unfortunate remark or even simply an observation.

Now, look at what you said was in the email:

"Not sure, he looks pretty foreign, but has been here for a long time..."

It is true isn't it?
Does it even imply anything derogatory?

By the way, how does she know what you look like? did you include a photograph?

There is a danger that in a climate of increasing sensitivity or "awareness" we are more inclined to react more strongly than otherwise to what we think are prejudicial remarks.

The reply you had is interesting:

"I do thank you for pointing out my obvious ignorance. I do hope that you will accept my utmost apologies for my actions.
I have passed on your resume and someone will contact you if our manager feels you the experience that we are looking for.
Thank you again for your interest in our firm."

Was this the response of an out and out bigot? or the response of someone who said something and regrets it, possibly because it apparently gave personal offence, not because it might get him/her into court or even because they think what they said was actually prejudicial but simply potentially sensitive.

Perhaps she feels real bad because you have taken offence where none was intended.

You judge.

By the way, a common phrase is "No offence intended." to which the reply is "None taken." (even, often when both sentiments are obviously false) and this ought to be more often the case as it is a formula that does what all the legislation cannot do, it helps us move on.

Legislation will never eradicate prejudice. Nor will being overly sensitive to it. Ignoring something is often the best way forward. Often, not always. When you come up with a real bigot, then you may be obliged to do something.

The question is, what did you reply to her response? Did you say, "Thank you for your reply. No appology was necessary as no offence was taken."
It doesn't have to be true. It could be interesting to see what comes of it.
It is then you who are making a positive response, a response you can be proud of.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

I agree with most of the sentiments above... BJC, JAE, theTick, jmw...

Everybody and every cultural group have their idiosyncrasies (that's pronounced "idiots and crazies")that irritate other people and groups.  That makes us all individuals.  Not a good thought, but it is reality.

What the woman did is unacceptable, but ignorable as she is obviously ignorant.  If you sue, as other people have said, you are marking yourself and ultimately making it more difficult to get a job in the future.  Let it go.  I firmly believe, and have seen it proved true so many times, that what goes around comes around.

To pursue a lawsuit would ultimately be a lose-lose situation for you.  Ultimately, you will have to ask yourself if you would work there after you win the lawsuit.  Then ask yourself, after the word gets around the local engineering network, will I be able to work ANYWHERE here?  Your call.  

LET...IT...GO... peace  

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
But those lawyers need to make money somehow  smile  Yeah, I am letting it go.  I have an interview with another firm on Wednesday (the firm that I really want to join).  Thanks everyone!

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

COEngineer,

I for one think you have made the right decision.  Good luck!

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

I second the motion...

All in favor say aye...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

I went to a lawyer once about a perceived discrimination issue and his advice was memorable.  He said "What do you hope to gain from the suit?  Do you think it will be enough to live on for the rest of your life (because once word gets out that you are an employee who sues his employeer you'll never find another job in your field)?"  Same applies here, if you sue them they will offer you an interview that you'll "just miss getting hired".  It might be fun to forward the e-mail to the company president with the question "do you think her comment was saying that I was over qualified or under qualified?"  Won't do you any good, but it may make life a bit difficult for her for a while.

Chalk it up to experience and tell the story over beer for the rest of yor life.

David

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Years ago, when I was discharged from the Air Force (was a crew chief (aircraft mechanic) on KC-135 tankers) the town I grew-up in had a job posted for a fuel truck driver/small aircraft refueler, along with other maintinance work around the small airport.  I applied, had an interview, I still recall the conversation:

Interviewer - You would have to refuel aircraft with a fuel, which can be dangerous.
Me - I was a crew chief on tankers, refueling over 100,000 lbs of jet fuel everyday.
Interviewer - Well ok, but you would be responsible for a $50,000 fuel truck.
Me - I was responsible for a $10 million aircraft.
Interviewer - Thank you very much we will make our selection within a week.

Did not get the job, found out soon after the person hired had no experience with aircraft or fuel trucks.  I filed a complaint with the EEOC, they had an investigation, found there were violations, most likely I was discriminated against, and the city came back and offered me a job as a custodian.

Moral of the story - Violations were found, They were in the wrong, and all they had to do was put some signs up in the employee break area stating it is illegal to discriminate.

COEngineer - don't waste you energy on this.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Good applicable story, monkeydog.

But I would still recommend filing a complaint with the EEOC...just not getting a lawyer.

 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

I like zdas's suggestion of forwarding the email up the company's food chain.  Then again I'm a fairly vindictive kind of human.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

There seem to be quite a few "vindictive" posters here.  I am glad COEngineer is more forgiving.  

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
I am still a little ticked off that they haven't even called me for an interview.  I match the job description 100% and better.  The job description said: immediate interview, immediate position.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Well, it would help to know exactly what you said to her when you notified her that she has misdirected her email to you and how you responded to her reply.
If you come across as touchy and easily offended then they may well be nervous about bringing you in.

Now OK. It is difficult for someone not directly concerned to understand how this might be perceived and it is interesting to note that the replies here range from forget it to take them out and shoot them.

My own reading is that what you have reported here is actually direct and factual observation. I'm sure I wouldn't like to overhear someone say of me that I was old, fat and lazy but if it were true I'd hesitate about getting too offended but I might be more productive in saying "so what?"  

Based on my reading of what you reported she said, and if it had been me that had said it, I'd either wonder what the fuss was about or, recognising from your email that you were busy obtaining an email AK47, I'd probably have gone and hidden and hoped any problems would go away by themselves.

I thought her reply a you reported it was appropriate for what was probably a very innocent remark and which is how she probably really thinks of it.

Yes, discrimination and bigotry are inexcusable, but we all say stupid things at the wrong times and if all the stupid people were shot there'd be no one left.

So, my advice would be to look again at what was said and try not to take it as an offensive comment but simply a statement of fact.
I'd suggest going further and thanking her for her reply and said that no offence had been taken.

Then I'd wait to see whether I got an interview. (in fact I'd say to try and turn this to your advantage, by making her feel comfortable you put her under obligation to you and
you also represent to her, by so doing, that you can be trusted to be level headed employee.

But if I have been a bit snippy in my first email and not responded to her second, I'd not be expecting an invitation for interview if I were you, not because you don't meet the required standards but because you might be viewed as a potential future source of trouble.

Now I can hear people muttering over their keyboards, so I will admit that not being an Asian seeking employment in the US I may not understand that this was offensive.
Fair enough.
Have I ever been discriminated against?
I have no idea. I don't expect to be discriminated against so what people say a do I don't interpret as discrimination, even if it is (which by the definitions used today, much certainly is.) Of course, my family were victimised back in the early 1900's but not me.

So if I have been the victim, I didn't recognise it as such.
Oh, OK, I could characterise some of the behaviour toward me by some people as "class driven", or "stupidity driven" (never let people know you are smarter than they are) and no doubt, some of those jobs I went for I didn't get because I was too old or too fat or something. But there it is.

Oh, now I think about it, I guess I ought to get upset about all the anti-US remarks that have been said to me (or anti-British, it depends on whether they think I am one or the other) and Americans do get a lot of far worse things said to and about them abroad than what has been said about you but so what. I'm not going to get upset about something I could care less about.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

National origin is a protected status, citizenship is not a protected status.  The difference is subtle but real.  If the company hires Asian-Americans, then your case is unwinable.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Read "Sun Tzu - the Art of War".  There is a section in there about picking battles you can win and passing up the ones you can't"

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

COEngineeer, good luck in your interview. I think you know what is best in your situation. Here is some information for you and the others.

BTW, I did not know this, but you can get someone else to file a complaint on your behalf in order to protect your identity (in case anyone is interested):

http://www.eeoc.gov/charge/overview_charge_filing.html

Here is an overview of discriminatory practices:

http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_practices.html


 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

BJC
I believe St. Ignatius Loyola goes one better:
Fight the battles you can win and accept the ones you can't and God grant you the wisdom to know the difference.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

COEngineer,

If you still want the interview, just call and ask to speak to the person in charge, and request to meet with him/her.  A direct approach shows initiative.

This whole thing probably happened because the company received a lot of applications and one of the clerical staff was given the job of sorting out the ones with spelling errors.  She made the mistake of committing her findings to email, then hitting the wrong button.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Would everyone's advise still be the same if the email said "Not sure, he looks pretty black, but has been employed by others..."

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Quote (melone):

Would everyone's advise still be the same if the email said "Not sure, he looks pretty black, but has been employed by others..."
Considering the OP is Asian, I'd find it pretty damn hilarious.  Oh, you were making a point there, weren't you... winky smile

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Yes, my answer would be the same.  Prejudice is prejudice.  And ignorance is ignorance.  And empathy is empathy.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Quote:


Yes, my answer would be the same.  Prejudice is prejudice.  And ignorance is ignorance.  And empathy is empathy.  

Just to throw another wrench in the works, maybe that was a positive not a negative. I know that I prefer someone with local experience to someone with foreign (there are things unique to every area)... so "looks foreign but has been here a long time" to me would mean "worth talking to"... not likely, but another possibility.

SLH

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

nobody apologizes profusely for a postitive comment

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Quote:

nobody apologizes profusely for a postitive comment
Guilt-ridden white liberals do it all the time.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Sometime ago, a government official in Ontario accidentally forwarded an e-mail in which she referred to an interview candidate as a "ghetto dude". This caused such an uproar, that the Premier of Ontario called the candidate to apologize.

This case is different, but we must keep in mind that racism still exists in North America (it is a historical residue of slavery and segregation). I saw this short film a while ago, which I really enjoy, and tackles job and discrimination issues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGJq8wrw5I

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Not exactly profuse either.
Try and project different scenarios from outright bigotry and a fear of prosecution through to not intentional and hard to find any real reason why offence could be taken, but apologise anyway and see what replies you would give (absent the exact email notifying you you have sent your email to the candidate you'll have to guess how offended the candidate is).
Now rank this reply on a scale from a polite email for forms sake through to abject fear...

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

BJC,

That video is great! Thanks.

CoEngineer, glad you have not learned the art of suing everyone for anything in your 12 years here. Save the email, chalk it up as a good story to tell over some good old USA Budwisers.  

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

I had an employer who prefered to hire folks who were immigrants. His theory was that they would work for lower wages than a USA born individual.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Being half-Asian, I was told during an interview once that the company wished they could find more candidates similar to me because "you guys are so diligent".  I finished the interview, but walked away.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

At least he didn't tell you that you have good rhythm or seem "really articulate".

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Quote:


Being half-Asian, I was told during an interview once that the company wished they could find more candidates similar to me because "you guys are so diligent".  I finished the interview, but walked away.

One of my amusing moments in university was listening to a friend complain about "all those Asians who worked so hard and did really well so he wouldn't be able to get into grad school". -- the amusing thing is he was a North-American born Asian for lack of a better discription... Personally I never complained about those who worked harder that did better than me... and I did get into grad school, didn't stay though.

SLH
 

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

(OP)
Update:

I had an interview with them and also another firm that I really want.  As it turn out, the firm that we have been talking about on this thread is not that great. The benefit is not really good.  No insurance the first 3 months and it is not 100% paid, no vacation the first year.  What a joke.  

The good news is, I just accepted an offer from the other firm.  They didnt even notice that I was a foreigner during the interview (ok.. just joking).  I am very lucky (and very lucky to get an interview) because people hardly ever leave the company because their benefit is awesome!  Thank you guys once again!  I cant live without this forum.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

Congratulations on your new position.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

i think you're wasting good effort. the company obviously has reservations about who they hire. they may not be prejudging you other than trying to answer the question as to your origins. however, they could happen to be kkk members and hate foreigners...i seriously doubt the latter is the case. certain folks do not "fit" certain positions. we once had a position that was only open (here in u.s.) to a particular origin (not american)...i suppose one might construe that as prejudging. that position was opened partially for the reason of having expertise with certain clients.

if you think they are negatively prejudging you and you think you do not have a fair shot, then don't work for them and move on. starting a lawsuit will ultimately use up lots of your time and money and is not a slam dumk in court...if they would've used a vulgar slur in that email, then i might feel differently. that's my thoughts for what it's worth.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

msucog,

Now I am going to give you a slap on the wrist.  COEngineer has resolved his issue and moved on.  There is no reason for you to chime in based only on the OP.  You should read the whole thread if you want to comment.

RE: Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity"

i was trying to put a skin on the perspective since the situation i noted was somewhat rare from my experience. however, i did happen to skip the last line of the last response...i managed to read the entire thread and skipped the last line. (guess that's why the lawyers slip nasty language in the last paragraph of contractrs). sorry and congrats.

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