False Bill of Sale
False Bill of Sale
(OP)
I'm just wondering what everyone else thought about this thought:
When you're in school and have math, logic and science aptitude, you get pushed toward engineering or sciences.
Now, at least where I'm at, it seems that the engineering career has nothing to do with math or science --- maybe 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time my job requires written and verbal skills. I'm somewhat lucky because there is spell and grammar check in MS Word - maybe not here if there are any errors
and have the gift of gab. Is anyone else out there running into this?
I know this may be just someone getting older and grouchier just wanting to start something up, but... Why trick kids into thinking that they can actually work in the areas of their strengths (and likes) and then crapping them out with a career that actually requires skills they need to develop(and in all possibility dislike)?
Why make engineering students take Calc 1 thru 3, diff. eqs., linear alg., etc. if you're not going to be using anything other than a spreadsheet for the rest of your career?
I'm glad I started out and had to do heat loss calcs by hand and had to use the psyc chart. Now it's so automated by software, bosses want the engineer to delegate those tasks to a designer, have you do a cursory review and write "cover your butt" letters and proposals all day long.
Just carpin'... anyone else want to complain?
When you're in school and have math, logic and science aptitude, you get pushed toward engineering or sciences.
Now, at least where I'm at, it seems that the engineering career has nothing to do with math or science --- maybe 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time my job requires written and verbal skills. I'm somewhat lucky because there is spell and grammar check in MS Word - maybe not here if there are any errors
I know this may be just someone getting older and grouchier just wanting to start something up, but... Why trick kids into thinking that they can actually work in the areas of their strengths (and likes) and then crapping them out with a career that actually requires skills they need to develop(and in all possibility dislike)?
Why make engineering students take Calc 1 thru 3, diff. eqs., linear alg., etc. if you're not going to be using anything other than a spreadsheet for the rest of your career?
I'm glad I started out and had to do heat loss calcs by hand and had to use the psyc chart. Now it's so automated by software, bosses want the engineer to delegate those tasks to a designer, have you do a cursory review and write "cover your butt" letters and proposals all day long.
Just carpin'... anyone else want to complain?





RE: False Bill of Sale
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
RE: False Bill of Sale
That --- and the fact that owners/managers are pushing us to be more administrative and less technical.
RE: False Bill of Sale
RE: False Bill of Sale
For example, I am in the crane industry. (its been in the news alot lately) On at least three occasions this year I have seen “Engineers” over relay on their software package and create designs that did not pass inspection, had major design errors that required field modification, and in one case complete refund because the design was beyond fixing.
In all of this jobs, had the Engineer/Design used a simple check, they would have gotten a red flag that something was wrong with the design.
For just about every design I make, I will back-up a spread sheet calculations with a simplified “out-of-the-book” general case equation by hand as a check. If it’s within an order of magnitude I can sleep at night. If it’s off, I re-evaluate the ob/design/equations/assumptions, and try not to have an anxiety attack. Doing all that h in school should give you enough confidence to make correct and repeatable calculations.
RE: False Bill of Sale
It's engineering, not science. Engineering is a combination of math, science, business, and communication.
RE: False Bill of Sale
Notice that TGS4 only mentioned ONE course in writen and verbal communication.
Getting my BS, we had a written communication course and a separate speech/presentation course. Still not enough!
RE: False Bill of Sale
In the navy, an officer's career could live or die by writing skills. Officers and NCO's are constantly on the spot to communicate effectively in writing and also orally to large groups.
As an engineer in industry, it is your job to understand technical issues facing a project owned by your employer. It is your responsibility to make most effective use of this knowledge for your employer, and to aid others in non-technical disciplines in making sound decisions that are affected by technical issues.
RE: False Bill of Sale
RE: False Bill of Sale
Are you even an engineer? It sounds like you are more on the management side. Who are doing the calcs for you? I hope not the designers.
"Why make engineering students take Calc 1 thru 3, diff. eqs., linear alg., etc. if you're not going to be using anything other than a spreadsheet for the rest of your career?"
Well I still use calculus every once and awhile at work. However, the reason you learn the math in college is 1) so you can understand where the equations came from in your engineering classes and 2) the only way to understand physics is thru the math. Everything around you can be described by calculus, diff eqs, and linear alg, you just failed to apply it to your job. If you took the time to figure out how to use what you learned in college and apply it to your design, then you would be doing engineering work. If not, you just turning bolts.
“I'm glad I started out and had to do heat loss calcs by hand and had to use the psyc chart. Now it's so automated by software, bosses want the engineer to delegate those tasks to a designer, have you do a cursory review and write "cover your butt" letters and proposals all day long.”
Well there you go, you have designers doing engineering work and have no idea what they are doing, but when the design blows up they will blame you.
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: False Bill of Sale
RE: False Bill of Sale
1.) If you are good at math and/or science you really should consider a career in math and/or science. I think it is a big mistake to push kids into engineering just because they will do good in some of the engineering classes.
2.) Engineering school is comprised of numerous math based classes because a large majority of engineering professors can't do anything else. They went straight through school and never did anything practical, thus they spit out the same fertilizer that they learned from their uninformed professors.
RE: False Bill of Sale
I think a lot of courses could be improved with some more classes that are more directly applicable to most work situations (be it technical or soft), but; what do you drop? Or do you make the courses even longer?
Degrees seem to lay a foundation on which you can build. For instance, mechanical engineering is a very broad field, if you try to focus the degree more you risk limiting the fields graduates can go into etc.
I agree with others about being able to validate out put from programs and understanding basically what the program is doing etc.
UtilityLouie I have some sympathy for what you say but think you're taking it way too far.
I do agree though with not pushing kids to Engineering just because they are good a math & science. So many people at my uni were on my course because they were good at math & science, not because they gave a damn about Engineering in general or Aero in particular.
Made it a lot more difficult for people like me who weren't quite as book smart but really wanted to be an engineer, while they took their jobs as computer programmers, journalists or as managment consultants etc.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: False Bill of Sale
I am in this field because I was good at taking things apart and fixing things. I was average in math and science. One major college admissions counsellor felt I wasn't fit for engineering.
I really like my field and I think I am successful because of the reasons I chose this field.
JIM
RE: False Bill of Sale
RE: False Bill of Sale
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Johnny Pellin
RE: False Bill of Sale
RE: False Bill of Sale
- Steve
RE: False Bill of Sale
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: False Bill of Sale
I live in one of those areas that's losing industry. Here's what I feel like: the engineer's engineer has left the area along with the jobs that were calculation or experimental based. All that's left are younger guys that want to do true engineering and stay in this area(I feel I fall into this category) and the older engineers/managers that turned into paper pushers or bureaucrats because they either lost the skills or never really had them.
What happens? True engineering skills are not as valued as being able to "follow the bureaucratic process". So paper pushers are promoted, true technical abilities - not so much.
Maybe my only real problem is not being willing to relocate. My whole extended family is here and I don't want to get away from them.
RE: False Bill of Sale
One field of engineering that's often overlooked is NVH. Test, measurement, analysis, simulation all in the same day. Plus there's loads of cool things like eigenvectors, complex numbers, fourier analysis, expensive equipment...
I moved on when the learning curve started to get flat, but for several years it was a blast.
- Steve
RE: False Bill of Sale
http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=391
http://www.eng-tips.com/threadminder.cfm?pid=384
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: False Bill of Sale
I do believe there needs to be more emphasis on writing and speaking skills in engineering programs. I say drop a literature requirement in favor of a tech writing requirement or three.
Some fields of engineering require more communication than others, but in any field (even math or physics) you have to be able to communicate your results to someone else.
Hg
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