Wind Turbines
Wind Turbines
(OP)
Last week I while caught by a train I saw 6 nacelles and 6 rotor hubs going by. Today I was caught by the train again and counted 12 nacelles, no hubs going by. This equipment is made by GE at their local facility. It looks like there is an increase in demand for wind turbines as I've never seen more than one unit before.
It is kinda ironic that these components are made by GE in a building built for Westinghouse Nuclear Components Division.
It is kinda ironic that these components are made by GE in a building built for Westinghouse Nuclear Components Division.





RE: Wind Turbines
Bring em on!
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
Lovely, I guess I had better beef up my homeowners insurance.
RE: Wind Turbines
One already fell down in the Northwest during testing.
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
A rigid boiler code was developed over many years to reduce the hundreds of boiler explosions and thousands of deaths each year. I suspect this will happen with wind turbines, assuming they stay operational long enough.
RE: Wind Turbines
Design on wind turbines to lessen the cost of maintenance seems to be in order. The first thing they usually need is a crane or two that can cost $4-1000 a day, plus travel time, set up time. The cranes that can do the job may not be free when needed. If you could put the generator on the ground it would seem possible to build a hoist into the tower that would handle the blade(S).
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
The current top tier wtg OEM's (like GE, Mitsubishi, et al) have worked through their blade and gear box reliability issues early on. The current problem is that wind turbines are the flavor of the month for most energy producers.
This means that demand far exceeds the supply, the various wind turbine OEM's know that they have their customers over a barrel. This is where the sub par suppliers begin to supply parts that are not manufactured to the highest quality standards.
RE: Wind Turbines
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com
"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, its what we know for sure" - Mark Twain
RE: Wind Turbines
http://www.windpower.org/en/core.htm
pretty comprehensive
RE: Wind Turbines
htt
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
RE: Wind Turbines
it had one blade just dangling at a strange angle from its normal position and was not running while the others were truning away. i will post a link to the picture when i get home.
p.s. i must mention that i am more partial to MATS (multi axis turbine systems)wind turbines. the ones commercially available as well as the ones some universities are working with.
RE: Wind Turbines
You are probably correct. Aside from what is now under construction it been announced that T. Boone Pickens, famed for oil deals, is behind a 792 unit wind farm in west Texas. The turbines are to be supplied by GE.
RE: Wind Turbines
Rod
RE: Wind Turbines
I do not know where they get the noisy rap, unless from older blade designs, while at my sisters house, with a turbine less than 1/4 mile away, even a bird chirping sounds like a cannon shot compared to the turbine.
Could be they did both of those projects out by you for the typical Cali. feel good purpose, but out here at least, those puppies are turning whenever the wind blows, which is almost always.
RE: Wind Turbines
TTFN
FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: Wind Turbines
Rod
RE: Wind Turbines
In Germany , this is being addressed by retrofitting coal fired units with header type feedwater heaters, and an immediate 10% step increase in steam turbine output achieved by isolating steam exraction to the feedwater heaters.
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
http://ww
RE: Wind Turbines
In the Orkneys they have overcome the inherent problem of wind turbines. That is when there is no wind there is no power delivery.
The turbines supply the power to a Hydrogen generator. The hydrogen is stored and used to supply a generator engine. The units are small at present, but have proved reliable and they even have a prototype Hydrogen powered car to run around the island.
Offshore Engineering&Design
RE: Wind Turbines
- Steve
RE: Wind Turbines
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: Wind Turbines
But making the hydrogen is only about 35 % efficient.
Then using the hydrogen in an engine is probably about 35 % efficient.
So from the electicity that was generated, the hydrogen storage system would only put out about 12 % of the original energy ( 35 % * 35 %)
that's pretty poor overall efficiency especially considering the extra expense added from the hydrogen generating equipment and the engine gen set.
RE: Wind Turbines
j2bpromotheus,
I agree it is not a very efficient system, but apart from the initial capital costs of equipment and construction, the payback at 12% will take some time.
The Orkneys are a remote island area and they are looking at some self sufficiency for their power supplies. The high costs of shipping in fuel are other factors to be considered.
The present system is a small scale MOM&POP proto-type and obviously lessons will be learnt and it is a small step in advancing uses of clean alternative energy
Offshore Engineering&Design
RE: Wind Turbines
Hmmmm? In his reference to the Palm Springs wind farm, he may be correct as I never see more than half operating at one time.... New wind farms can replace all existing power generation plants, save coal power, in ten years and stop the power 'drain' freeing up oil and gas for other uses.
His claim is that the U.S. can be well into solving it's energy problems in as few as ten years! Again, hmmmmmm, I'm just wondering how long to amortize the cost, and what cost are we talking about here? Hundreds of millions of dollars in gov't. subsidies would be required, that's a given. What political party is going to see to the spending measure that would facilitate such an undertaking? Our Congress is joined at the hip to the oil industry! What politician does not take money from oil industry lobbyists?
Then, again, I'm not the billionaire with gazillion$ invested in wind power. He is building a 4000 megawatt wind farm in Pampa, Texas....That may work there...I've was in Pampa back in '64, but I would be surprised if it had changed all that much. There will be no lack of wind at the "Top of Texas"!
I'm just wondering, how will the rest of the country accept wind farms reaching to the horizon?
Rod
RE: Wind Turbines
I think Eon also had some some truths to reveal but I'll need to find the original articles/source for both comments before I can establish what level of credibility to assign them.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
Curtail hydro due to windy day?
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
Hydro's nice if you have it available, but most utilities don't have 20% hydro.
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
Hope this doesn't set your time table back. The TV news said that the total thief was about 60,000 lbs of Cu.
htt
RE: Wind Turbines
htt
That the industry has had to modify its declared environmental benefits downwards is because:
referring to the admission that wind energy 'displaces' not the 860 grams of carbon dioxide emission for every kilowatt hour of electricity generated as originally claimed but only 430 grams.
Worryingly, one response suggests that we now need twice as many wind turbines....
Rr, no thank you.
This was a dodgy deal to begin with and what this really means, or should mean, is this ain't the solution and the cost benefits do not justify this solution.
However, politicians being what they are and no economic collapse will stand in their way, we are going to tighten our belts and go for it... you wait and see. Maybe the huge investment in wind turbines will be seen as a some sort of modern "New Deal", perhaps a return of the Civilian Conservation Corps? not the TVA or Hoover Dam but wind farms and whatever else the new scientific advisor to Obama comes up with (see htt
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
Live around one of these "wind farms" or travel by one and tell me "this is the future"! The whole idea smacks of overt commercialism to me. I am not an advocate, as you may have surmised. "Trust in govt", and trust that T. Boone has OUR best interests at heart is much akin to 'I will respect you in the morning, I promise'...
Rod
RE: Wind Turbines
With the next new deal I might bet a bit of money on direct burial high voltage transmission cable in addition to a wind or solar farm.
RE: Wind Turbines
says they are not competetive at these low prices!
Steven C
Senior Member
ThirdPartyInspections.com
RE: Wind Turbines
But only because of the energy tax credits - if it wasn't for the tax credits available, I think there would far fewer wind farms being installed.
RE: Wind Turbines
And how about the cost of added transmission to connect the wind to the grid?
RE: Wind Turbines
Not sure what you mean by this....
RE: Wind Turbines
Coal is not renewable. You trash lots of real estate to remove and process coal. Transportation is by rail although the power could be generated far from the cities too.
RE: Wind Turbines
I think he means the cost the load following source that is needed when the wind dies down.
RE: Wind Turbines
I have seen what happens win a 100MW wind farm goes from 100MW to zero in a five minuite time peroid. Consitering that the following unit was a gas fired steam unit, it just could not ramp that fast.
It would be worse with a coal fired unit, which is what you would want to do if you were looking out for your customers pocket books.
A gas turban would be faster, but with the price of gas, until recently, it would have increased the cost to the customers.
Properly wind power, and all it's costs, should be sold to customers willing to pay more for electricity.
So consiter the ramp rates, and what units must be running to accomidate 15%, 20%, or even 30%, MW production on your system. It gets worse if the expected wind production is in KWH, rather than MW capacity.
Not that I'm aginst wind power, but I am aginst mandated higher electricity costs.
RE: Wind Turbines
They are huge.
They are ugly.
They obliterate the 'view'.
They are noisy.
They are not efficient when the wind dies.
They raise havoc when the wind VARIES.
AND, most of all...NIMBY! (Nimbies elect the legislature)
Anyway, the nimbies and OPEC will kill it in the long run.
Rod
RE: Wind Turbines
I don't hear wind generators when driving in my car. When out in the oil-patch I hear the pumping jacks. They too are noisy when no background noise exists.
Gas turnine generators are not energy efficient whether or not the wind dies. Gas turbines can produce the peak generation capacity as the wind varies. Widely spaced wind power farms can compensate from local variation. However, a high pressure system becalms large areas.
I would love to have about 20 wind generators in my back yard. I would also love a back yard large enough to support about 20 wind generators.
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping systems account for nearly 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
At some of these locations, with out the wind tower, the cost is very low. So you could have a back yard that big (good luck on finding a job).
But some western states are offering incentives for hireing people in remote locations, which makes wind farms more proffitable.
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
Rod
RE: Wind Turbines
The problem is these things are being forced onto utilities with no consiteration on the effects on the customers.
They have there place, don't get me wrong. But when they negatively effect the cost to the customers, it's a problem.
At least with solar the generation curve somewhat follows the load curve.
RE: Wind Turbines
My brother is doing some work for a company that wants to buy up all wind farm leases they can from WY to SD/MN and sell the huge package off to a big wind utility. If you still think you want wind turbines, get there before he does. Fortunately that's NIMBY!
**********************
"Pumping systems account for nearly 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
I rarely take I-10 very far west of San Antonio. However, many ridges are covered with wind generators in West Texas. The Texas Comptrollers office published a wind engergy report showing Texas with a 4296 MW capacity at the end of 2007 out of 16,596 MW for the 50 states. California was next with 2439 MW followed by MN, WA and IA all over 1100 MW. As suspected, the Texas Panhandle has the largest wind potential. This suggests that the western plains are big potential wind growth areas - and not among the largest power useage areas.
http://ww
RE: Wind Turbines
Its getting really UGLY near Tariffa.
I'll shoot some video & sound bytes for you tomorrow.
The installations in the lower right are actually in the Canary Islands, not Morocco.
The biggest problem in developing US wind and solar power gen is the investment in transmission lines required to get the production to markets. Seems like I've heard a figure of 800 Billion. ..small change for you guys these days.
**********************
"Pumping systems account for nearly 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
Although congress threw away 700 gigabuck toward the banks and is making plural gigabuck bad loans to the failing auto industry, most Norte Americanos consider hundreds of billions to be incomprehensible.
RE: Wind Turbines
A short video is posted at,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeE2RBey_Ao
I think the noise can be best described as "wind turbine snoring." There is a steady humm from the generator, a swish from the blades and seems to be an extra wheeze when a blade passes the column. I was able to get into the farm, as the gate was open and took the video right next to the column of the first one I reached. The wind was relatively light, probably 10 mph while I was taking the recordings. I was there on a day when the wind was 25-30 mph once before and the noise was considerably louder. Easily audiable from several hundreds of meters away and I believe it was much louder at that distance than the recording I took yesterday. I didn't notice the generator humm from a far distance, but standing below one it is audiable.
In any case, last time I had a hotel with thin walls, the guy next door kept me up all night and he wasn't this loud. Maybe I'm just too sensitive, as I'm pretty used to the usual peace and quite we have around here most of the time. Well, except for the cracks of the golfers teeing off from #2 and ... it is true that the summertime frogs get pretty roudy when they're partying hard down at the water trap all night. Have to check and see what's in that water.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
<http://www
RE: Wind Turbines
Do they make noise?
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
You are right, they are just way too loud, you can barely hear yourself think.
Then a Cricket chirps and you about jump out of your shoes.
There may well be a problem with the grid bouncing, but to say they have a noise issue is a bit overboard.
Typically my house whistles louder in the wind than those turbines.
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
All other issue involving wind aside, don't you think "I don't like that they cause the light to flicker on my drive home" is a pretty poor reason to oppose a technology?
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
My bigest peves with wind power is it usually arrives when we don't need it, mainly at night. And you can't shedule it, so you have to follow it with a fossel unit, which adds wear and tear on the fossel unit to try to ramp up and down that much.
Now if you can store the wind power some how, and release it as it is needed, I don't have a problem.
RE: Wind Turbines
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7763900.stm
(NIMIBY's please note: this wind turbine in Norfolk is owned by a Cornish power generating company....)
Note also the comments on light flashing and noise.
I would suggest that even the most dedicated supporters of wind trubines would be concerned about the location of this one.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
Great, that means that just as townies can move to the country and get church bells silenced and farmers hauled off to jail because their animals make too much noise and/or smell and they spread smelly stuff on fields that will be used to grow crops, we can hope to have wind turbines either turned off altogether or have restrictions imposed on when they can be used.
PS, in the chart, why not wind speed at the hub height, why 10m?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
There are restrictions on where they can be used in most places already, but there are a few articles I've seen where the local residents say the restrictions have been ignored, or the area simply rezoned, by local town councils over some objections. If the existing restrictions were followed, it would have been doubtful that anybody would have complained about noise.
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
The wind turbine is not, close to, a point source but with sound generated across the swept region.
Measuring the sound at the hub is as reasonable as any other approach. We are not, one presumes, to believe that there is no noise at the hub, just that at the hub the noise generation may be less, as you say, due to the local velocity, but it may well be that along the hub axis is the most intense noise as all noise generating points of the swept plane are equidistant from that axis.
Making a local measurement close to the swept plane but radially displaced is not the most effective or representative method.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Wind Turbines
However, we are assured this £1million wind turbine did not fold up because of UFOs but because of the far less interesting (to the public) mechanical failure.
STill, "Wind Turbine Struck by UFOs" made for interesting reading.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
Are the greens all now in favour? Perhaps not as this article suggests:
http://w
Note who the author is and check out his green credentials....
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/
RE: Wind Turbines
It says that climate change (contrary to the understanding fostered/promoted by Al Gore in his comments on tornadoes etc.) is responsible for significant drop in winds.
Of course, the article hasn't been published yet, it has been, as is commonly the case these days, "leaked" to the press prior to publication in the "peer reviewed Journal of Geophysical Research" which one supposes is meant to imply that it is peer reviewed when it actually makes no such claims; indeed, the article may yet fail to be published.
In any event, they seem to be laying the groundwork for the excuses that will be trotted out when everyone discovers that wind farms don't generate nearly as much energy as promised.... its all due to AGW of course.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
The local GE Wind Turbine Plant is calling back workers and shipping components 2 x 2 x 2....
RE: Wind Turbines
So who puts it on the grid??
Can I become a journlest and ask DB questions??
Does anyone care if the power on the grid goes off??
That's the reason science classes are required in college.
Can you tell how miffed these people make me??
RE: Wind Turbines
AGW?
Uncle Syd,
DB question?
Cranky,
The grid includes many Mega boiler steam turbine generators (assorted fuels) and gas turbine driven peaking units. If wind accounted a far greater percentage of the power then it could be a problem. However, presently the grid can accomodate diverse renewables with some solar, some wind, etc. The loads are variable too.
One could rationally advocate both nuclear mega generators and renewables; and perhaps oppose new coal burning plants. Such advocacy is lame without selecting a renewable based electrical utility company. This sort of ties back to the irony mentioned in the original post, "... components are made by GE in a building built for Westinghouse Nuclear Components Division". Sure, coal will return when we use up all the uranium, wind and sunshine.
RE: Wind Turbines
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
RE: Wind Turbines
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
Why do you think that is?
It seems that someplace doring a fault there was a loss of several hundred megawatts of power production.
What happens when you loose several hundred megawatts on the grid? The frequency can drop, and automatic load shedding goes into effect, or another stability problems comes about.
Solution: require spinning reserve of firm power from all power producers.
Problem #2: because of heat generation sources nucular and coal generation has a limited ramp rate.
Soultion2: use gas turbins to follow the wind.
How ironic that we have to follow the green power with the most expencive energy source.
RE: Wind Turbines
I am told by a Dutch friend (I haven't checked)that the Dutch are constructing a new bolder (dyke) so that they can use surplus wind energy to fill it and when the wind drops they can use the outflow to drive turbines...
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
Battery energy storage is also progressing, but again there are few of these, and the capacity is somewhat small.
There is interest in compressed air storage, but this is actually a suplement to a gas turban plant.
Yes I've heard of H2 storage, but there are none that I know of operating.
RE: Wind Turbines
I know there is some inertia in the grid that allows some percentage of temperary unbalance. But this inertia isen't as great as some people seem to think it is. It is not several hundred mega watts like many wind developers would like us to believe.
That is the reason we call wind non-dispatchable, or non-firm power. It requires a normal or storage source to inversly follow the wind.
Most utilitys seem to top out at inversly following the wind at about 10 to 15% of total generation.
RE: Wind Turbines
Isn't that pretty damned expensive and just how quickly can you ramp up demand on a battery?
Pumped Storage schemes would seem to offer some pretty good ramp up response to power demand I would have thought (but i guess it depends on the available head... I can see the Dutch Polders will have to be built with enough head to generate a goodly amount of electricity even at high tide... of course, they will be reclaimig land from the sea as usual.
By the way, I don't see there being a problem with cost.
If there were, we wouldn't be investing tax payers money in wind farms, would we now?
So it stands to reason that whatever is necessary to make wnd farms work will be "necessary" and hence afforded.
http://en.
The most interesting is probably Cruachan Power Station (h
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
As my understanding is very basic, perhaps cranky108 or others can add some sophistication to the technical issues.
RE: Wind Turbines
The DC allows the control of the flows between the grids.
Actually for a devation of frequency several major generation plants will be adjusted to make up for that difference. Sounds eazy, but currently there can be some large penilitys for inadverent flows.
Most companies are required to balance the in and out flows to keep the grid balanced. The companies that are not required to balance there flows are under the umbrellia of a balancing athorty which keeps the balance.
For major frequency devations customers may be shed to keep the remaing grid balanced. This is followed by a NERC investigation for the cause, and possible penilitys.
RE: Wind Turbines
Do they still have lights bulbs on each circuit to look at the frequency differences?
RE: Wind Turbines
http:
GE announced a new $100M NaS battery plant in New York, so they must believe there is a market.
Alan
----
"It's always fun to do the impossible." - Walt Disney
RE: Wind Turbines
Usually they cheepout and only install a single phase PT on one side of the breaker.
At least someone is looking at the wind storage issue. People should have seen this comming.
RE: Wind Turbines
http://www
RE: Wind Turbines
He probally relized that where theres wind, there isen't people, or power lines.
RE: Wind Turbines
A report now to be published in book form:
h
The article linked is typical of many.
However, the report must be considered very vulnerable simply on a statistical basis and some genuine credence given to the critics.
Whether or not there is a real health risk might only be determined by further research - oh dear, it is often so very costly to debunk some spurious theories, should that be the final outcome.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Wind Turbines
2 km
Nuclear power plants
Steam power plants
Gas Turbine power plants
Refineries
Sewage treatment facilities
Water treatment facilities
Sea coasts
... preditors
RE: Wind Turbines
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world's energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies) http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/