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Faking a degree
3

Faking a degree

Faking a degree

(OP)
I was thinking over the weekend about how common are engineers faking their degrees.
I worked with a Mech. Engineer for a while that didn't seem to me he went to college at all. He was a hot-head, argued with everyone that he is right, and all of his designs failed.
Finally, a new engineering manager was hired and he also thought some fishy. He asked me my thoughts, I told him I don't think he has a degree.
Turns out I was right. He lied about it and his background was not thoroughly checked when hired.
He was fired soon after.
Has anyone here experienced engineers (or any other profession) that have faked (lied) about have their college degree? I'm curious how common this is.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Faking a degree

Every once in a while I see a story about this.  Not just engineers, but also doctors and dentists and lawyers.

These stories go along the line of "he was so good you could never tell".  Obviously not the case here.

RE: Faking a degree

ctopher,

   I worked with a guy who claimed to have a graduate degree in engineering, and who could not solve a simple geometry problem involving Pythagorus.  Eventually, he was laid off.

   No one ever challenged his credentials, so, strictly speaking, I have no idea what the problem was.  Perhaps Pythagorus was too new fangled and high tech for him.  

                      JHG

RE: Faking a degree

(OP)
Yes, I remember that story. That is a tough one. She was very good at what she did, but was fired because she lied on her resume. I feel that should have worked something out with her.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Faking a degree

Not a degree specifically but A guy at my last place had lied about his previous experience.  Claimed he was the head of a design department, led all their design introduced a new CAD system etc.  Turned out he'd been a paper pusher with approximately 0 design/engineering experience beyond his apprenticeship.  Everytime he got found out he moved on.  Took them several years to get rid of him and that was only 'cause he quite to take a 6 month trip to Australia or something.

When he came back he tried to get re-hired, they said no!

I always take my degree cert with me to interviews and have never been asked to see it.  My first real interview I even asked if they wanted to see it, he said yeah but I could tell he couldn't care less!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Faking a degree

(OP)
My current job they wanted proof of everything, including High School information. I never lied about anything. I only tell them what they ask. Never give more info than what they ask for, but don't lie about anything.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Faking a degree

There was a contract guy who tried to get hired on direct,  and lied about having a degree.  He had a big mouth, so he told a lot of us about it in the process and word spread to the nearby managers, but it's a big organization and working-level managers only interfere in the HR process at the risk of their own necks, so mostly people watched from the sidelines (and besides, he was getting hired into a different part of the org - someone else's problem).  Anyway, his saga unfolded week by week... at first he was able to bluff his way along by telling HR that he had to wait for his school to send him a transcript before he could provide it, then he told us he was going to order a degree online, then he said he was going to "finish his degree" at an online university... then he got hired as a six-sigma black-belt and he still holds that job two years later.

This guy complained for 10 minutes and threatened to call a quality manager when he saw me check the diameter of a 5/8" bolt at my desk with a mechanical calipers, because I couldn't provide him with documentation of when it had last been calibrated.  

RE: Faking a degree

This is nothing new. Many years ago (in the days of pencil drawing) the company I was working for hired a new draftsman. He claimed he had experience in structural steel detailing. He tried very hard to use existing examples to create a new drawing but it became obvious he really had no experience. He was gone before the week was over. I am not degreed and never tried to fake it. Some of my employers have given me titles that made it look like I was. I was always uncomfortable with that. Through the years I have worked with many good engineers. I can think of only one that I'm sure was faking it.

Tobin Sparks
www.nov.com

RE: Faking a degree

I too have never lied on my resume --- but funny thing - In almost 30 years - NO ONE has EVER asked to see my engineering license although I carry my pocket copy at all times.  Strange??

RE: Faking a degree

Yeah - That's one thing I don't need a degree for. I can tell who the fakes are. smile I just let'em go and watch'em crash and burn. smile

Tobin Sparks
www.nov.com

RE: Faking a degree

I've had to bring my diploma in twice (I can hardly remember where I keep it).  One place did call the alma mater to verify.  Funny thing is, even after checking my college, they wanted to verify my high school!

RE: Faking a degree

I once worked for a very large construction company.  One of the design engineers was fired.  When the whole story got out it turned out he was asked if he had a degree.  He said yes, and was asked to bring it in. He did,it was his fathers.  His story was he had a degree, he inherited it.

On of the best engineers that  ever worked for me didn't have a degree.  He told the company he did.
He comfessed to me once.  He said he was traveling and stopped overnight in a town in Pennsylvania.  That night there was a big fire.  He asked the next day what the fire was.  The people at the restaurant told him the Administration building at the local university burned down.
The company would call the university and ask if he had a degree from the university.  Their reply was "if he graduated before 196x we don't have a record, we lost our records in a fire."  

RE: Faking a degree

(OP)
"His story was he had a degree, he inherited it".
That's a new one. Funny.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Faking a degree

I am always confused why they fire people that are doing amazing job, I don’t agree with lying but its also bad screening on the HR department, you don’t hear of them getting fired for hiring the wrong person?

From my view both people screwed up and if the person is doing a good job, it looks bad for both if they can’t workout a deal.

As for the people that are not good at work... and lie, it’s unfortunate the office politics keeps them around.

RE: Faking a degree

2
Well, the question is one of integrity and trust, not ability.  If he lied about things to get the job, what else is that guy lying about, and who's he lying to?  I am positive that there are guys that are competent and lie on resumes just to get a foot in the door so they can then let their performance speak for itself.  However, there are those who are incompetent and lie to cover that up.  Since the potential downside of hiring a liar can be so bad, I don't believe it can be tolerated, no matter how good the guy actually is after he's hired.

RE: Faking a degree

I've never had to take my degree cert into an interview.  Actually, I've only had the cert out of its package twice in 13 years.  The questions they have asked and the pre-employment background checks find out all they need to know.  Besides degree certs can be counterfeited.  Although, when my current job did a background check....it came up I had a MSME......

Heckler   americanflag
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

RE: Faking a degree

Once had a person apply for an admin position.  She was recommended by someone already working.  Long story short, the candidate felt guilty because she lied about her diploma (she apparently started but never finished school) and disclosed this to the person who recommended her.
The employee explained the situation to HR but damage was done - candidate wasn't hired.
And worse yet, the job didn't require any diploma etc, and the person they did eventually hire didn't have anything other than highschool.

At my present company we don't check for degrees but we do check designations.  It's actually easier to do that.

As for giving ppl a 2nd chance if caught, I say no way.  There's zero excuse for lying, and there are far too many honest people who worked hard that a scammer should be given any breaks.

-
Syl.

RE: Faking a degree

Quote.....    "There was a contract guy who tried to get hired on direct,  and lied about having a degree.  He had a big mouth, so he told a lot of us about it in the process and word spread to the nearby managers, but it's a big organization and working-level managers only interfere in the HR process at the risk of their own necks, so mostly people watched from the sidelines (and besides, he was getting hired into a different part of the org - someone else's problem).  Anyway, his saga unfolded week by week... at first he was able to bluff his way along by telling HR that he had to wait for his school to send him a transcript before he could provide it, then he told us he was going to order a degree online, then he said he was going to "finish his degree" at an online university... then he got hired as a six-sigma black-belt and he still holds that job two years later."

This guy complained for 10 minutes and threatened to call a quality manager when he saw me check the diameter of a 5/8" bolt at my desk with a mechanical calipers, because I couldn't provide him with documentation of when it had last been calibrated.


Now that is just funny anywhere!!  Much of the Black Belt Jazz is just that.  Another gimick quality program.  This guy you describe will probably be Sr. Vice President in a few years.  

  

RE: Faking a degree

oh goodness, I hope not.

RE: Faking a degree

I agree with the six-sigma black-belt ninja jazz, they are right up their with "LEAN Movements" Consultants which tells management everything the workers have been complaining about for years, just now the management already wasted a lot of money which they could have used for actual improvements had they listened to the engineering department.

RE: Faking a degree

well, like they have always said, if you ask a consultant what time it is, he'll ask to see your watch.

RE: Faking a degree

I can't say I've ever run into someone lying about having a degree, however I've come across folks who work very hard at hiding the fact they do not have one... Many times its been folks who have tech degrees and/or associates degrees who seem to often give the illusion of having an engineering degree.  

Personally, I don't think it matters a bit what kind of education someone has with regard to his/her ability to "engineer".  And I work with a number of folks whose formal eduction stopped with a HS diploma - and many of them can run circles around "degreed" folks.  But I've learned to not trust those who are not open and honest about his/her formal education experience.  

RE: Faking a degree

I once interviewed for a position with a small company, and after talking with the boss for 1/2hr about the normal stuff, he starts asking really unusual and specific, technical questions.

I ask him what the story is, and he explains carefully that the position I am being interviewed for is still occupied!  
They are cross-checking some of the stuff this guy had been saying over the last few weeks!!

The boss says i've got the job if I want it.  I accept.  He walks out of the office and fires the other guy!! He turned out to have faked his degree.  Picture me with my head low, sinking into my chair.

RE: Faking a degree

I don't know what the fuss is about, I get a regular stream of emails telling me I can have a degree or a doctorate just for the asking. Usualy I file them along with the 419 emails offfering me a % for getting several million dollars out of Africa (Latest is Hong Kong, much shorter and more direct; basically am I corrupt and am I stupid?)

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Faking a degree

The one person I've interviewed for an engineering position that didn't have degree came with loads of certificates and awards.  Sort of pitiful, in a way.  He didn't get hired, but not because of the degree; it was because he appeared to be a job-hopper, and he really didn't have enough math background.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Faking a degree

I believe people who boast much about their so called qualifications are trying to hide something in it. Afterall few years experience down the line who cares (with due respect to highly reputed uni's!)which uni you graduated from as the performance speaks for itself.

I would never dare imagine of losing my certificates anyhow as I understand to get the duplicate one's to be issued is hell of an experience  "a bureaucratic nightmare".

On the contrary it looks much easier to get the fake one's or try faking the same, as the discussion streams here.

Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.

RE: Faking a degree

I've never come across this in my career yet.  I just can't believe there are actually people out there who have the guts (with a capital "N") to try and pull something like that off.  Also, regardless of ability, I wouldn't hire anyone in an engineering position who didn't have the degree and if I found out they lied about their degree, I'd certainly fire them without an ounce of regret.  I don't care how good they are at the job.  It's unfair to the engineers who went through 4 years of school.  Besides, if they are that good at engineering without a degree it wouldn't be that hard for them to just get the degree then.  If someone wants to be an engineer, get a degree.  It's that simple.  I've worked with many draftsmen who think they can handle engineering.  They like to toss out lots of over simplifications on strengths of materials that are just plain wrong and most importantly DANGEROUS.  A non-degreed engineer is a liability to a company and is potentially dangerous to innocent bystanders who could be injured by a poorly designed machine or structure.  I'm not trying to start a fight, but I think it would be unethical to NOT fire the employee and let him or her continue to work as an engineer.  Our #1 priority as engineers is to protect the public after all.

RE: Faking a degree

I would think it would be reasonable for a company who employed such a person to report them for fraud, particularly if there was a life safety implication.

RE: Faking a degree

(OP)
I agree, it's not fair to those that have degrees and are trying to pay back their tuition...especially today being so expensive.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Faking a degree

Quote (bradpa77):

  I just can't believe there are actually people out there who have the guts (with a capital "N") to try and pull something like that off.

Apparently your Engineering degree was given, minus a proficiency in spelling... poke

V

RE: Faking a degree

Quote:

Apparently your Engineering degree was given, minus a proficiency in spelling...

LOL. It was supposed to be a witty pun.  You know, spelling guts with a "n" instead of a "g".  I guess it was only funny to me.  Oh well.  I do have a pretty strange sense of humor after all.

RE: Faking a degree

Brad,

I noticed it smile

RE: Faking a degree

(OP)
I goticed it too.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Faking a degree

bradpa77:

Like Gymmeh and ctopher, I too have noticed you have a strange sense of humor!

debodine

(I know they meant they understood your witty pun...just having some fun of my own with this thread...)

ctopher...I caught the "goticed" that you typed, nice touch!

RE: Faking a degree

Man, I must be slower than I originally thought...

V

RE: Faking a degree

bradpa,

I got it. Those that could not make sense of it must not have a sense...of humour.

RE: Faking a degree

When you apply for your engineering licence, at least when I did, the qualifications and transcripts are checked and proven.

Companies can check the professional registers to confirm satisfactory qualifications.

It's true, the ones who blab about about degrees you can sniff an odour.

I remember a contractor, Warren L, back in Manchester (Life on Mars era) a legend in his own class. He faked everything, dripping with degrees and experiences in chemical, process, piping, structural, FEA, aircraft design (LOL!). We laughed and watched to see how long he would last at each new project and would 'carry' him until someone shopped him. He was charming, witty and fascinating. I still smile to think of him.

When I worked on site in the Middle East, there was another legend Mike B, claiming to have designed a power station singlehandedly in China, bridges in New York, flown an F-16 in the Korean war.....He was not charming, not witty and very dangerous. I shudder to think of him.

The con jobs, I'd say it's one in a couple of hundreds. Engineers simply faking degrees and doing good work, I'd say one in a hundred. As long it is not a position of responsibility for safety, I can tolerate the quality of the work as the measure.

Takes all kinds.

I recommend fixing the resumes properly if it is not the intention to defraud.

Robert Mote
www.motagg.com

RE: Faking a degree

There are times when I might do better to hide my degree.  I am trying to stay in design work, avoid project management.  Having a BSME can be an obstacle to this.

RE: Faking a degree

Not to get off topic, but why do you see it as an obstacle, TheTick?

V

RE: Faking a degree

VC66, some management types try and turn everyone else with a Bachelors into a manager, or at least make them a project manager.  It's part of the technical types not being fully appreciated/rewarded e.g. if you want to make more cash become a manager.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Faking a degree

Ahhh, I see. Thank you, KENAT.

V

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