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Opininons of engineering status?
11

Opininons of engineering status?

Opininons of engineering status?

(OP)
Ok, this has been eating at me for some time now, and has just come to a boil this morning.  Unfortunately, ventint to my boss does me no good, so I will vent to all of you and see what you think.

I work in a small engineering/quality office.  My boss is a degreed engineer with 30+ years of engineering and quality experience, as such he is a dual duty manager over engineering and quality.  I am the only other degreed engineer we have.  In the engineering office there is one other guy who has never taken a college course a day in his life, but has been in the department for 11 years now.  Then in quality there are 2 people with manufacturing experience but no college experience.

Here is my beef, the guy I work with continually refers him self as an engineer to customers and others we work with.  He had his business cards made up to say product engineer III, I believe he did this because mine say product engineer II and he wanted to apear to rank above me.  Granted he has 11 years of experience, but I have a very strong 4 year accredited degree, as well as 2 years automotive experience, 1 year pressure vessel design, and now 1.5 years here.  I have seen the sallary sheets for our department and I make 20k+ more than him and have better bennifits and vacation.  Also, when our boss is out, I am his proxy to step in as department manager.  

This morning we had a big confrontation because our boss is gone for a week and he put a sign on his door that manufacturing was to see me if they had any issues.  Well this "engineer" blew up at me and got all mad about how he is left out of everything.  I politely tried to explain to him that just knowing algebra, and plugging numbers into excel does not make you an engiener, but that just made him mad.

Am I wrong in my view?  I mean I view an engineer as someone who has put in the grueling time in university, and has the degree to support it.  Quality has the same issue, but only 1 of them refer to them selves as an engineer, the other calls her self a technician.  I personally think he should call him self an engineering technician, or perhaps engineering estimator (since that is all he does)

Am I off base?

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

As an engineer who has experienced the same type people, I'd say no your view is not at all incorrect.  However your approach is.  I worked with a guy who had a biology degree and magically annointed himself engineer.  I spent a couple years going toe to toe with him and usually ended up the bad guy and told to play nice with others.  Finally I became enlightened to the fact I was not going to win head to head and just let him run wild with his engineering expertise.  His mistakes caught up with him and he was stripped of all authority and eventually pushed out the door.  Just work hard gain respect and let them fail miserably.
"It takes two to fight"

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I would agree that unless you have a four year degree then you are not an engineer.

That being said, what does it matter if he or anyone else at your place of buisness calls themself an engineer? The one place I would see a problem is if you are in the Civil disipline or some other area where a PE is required for stamping drawings or similar or if the person is deliberatly mis-representing himself to a customer as an Engineer where being a degreed engineer is a requirement.

It sounds more like a battle of ego's to me. Let him put Cheif Engineer and Supreme Commander on his card; who cares. You make $20K more than him and get left in charge when the boss is gone. Take the high road and forget about what his title is.  

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

There are two things that are important, the rest you can forget about:
-your boss puts you in charge when he's not there.  That speaks to what he thinks of your abilities
-you make more than the self appointed engineer.

Don't waste your time confronting him or arguing with him.  When he complains, just smile and let him vent.  Don't get into any kind of argument.  


RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Quote:

I politely tried to explain to him that just knowing algebra, and plugging numbers into excel does not make you an engiener, but that just made him mad.

Really?  Surely not.  Why would that make him mad?

Quote:

I view an engineer as someone who has put in the grueling time in university, and has the degree to support it.

Grueling?  It's easier and more fun than working, plus you get a bit of paper at the end that opens doors.  I don't recall any of my lectures starting before 9 and coursework was a doddle compared with writing engineering reports.

- Steve

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I have no idea what the discrepancy in salary or benefits has to do with anything. That's petty.

Your boss put you in charge for a reason.

Being a younger engineer myself, I've gladly had my ass handed to me by the other engineers on this board regarding the fact that I still don't know squat (and I thank them). So now I must do the same for you (in a constructive way).

I understand you're upset, but you have to try and understand it from his point of view. This young guy comes in, and now all of a sudden he's number two. It's almost as if he's insecure about his place in the company, so he feels he has to compete.

As mechengdude said, take the high road. Stop complaining, do your job to the best of your ability, and you will succeed.

Good luck.

V

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I hear a lot of "you can't learn this in college".  This is often from people who have trouble writing in complete paragraphs.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

(OP)
I understand what you are all getting at.  But, this really bugs me.  The guy makes mistake after mistake, I and my boss constantly have to sweep up after him.  When he refers to him self as an engineer to customers then doesn't back up his mouth with good work it makes us look bad.  I really think he must have naked pictures of my boss or something (not really, but you get my point) because he has never been considered for firing even though his work is known as sub-par.  Yes, I suppose I should go the high road... I just hate it when people try to claim something they didn't earn....

I'm not going to let it get the best of me, I only have a little while longer till I go for my PE, then I'll be moved to corporate and won't have to deal any more....

Like I said, I just needed to vent.... and while doing so, wanted to see how you all felt about it, since 99% of you are true engineers.

Someting... I don't know what school you went to, but mine was tough as tough gets.  I had many 7:45AM -8:00AM start times for classes and often was in class till 3-4 in the afternoon...  Busted my self to get out with good grades...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Always difficult to correctly interpret any situation from the information given so excuse me if I read it wrong.

Let’s take the question of “engineer”.
What is the legal status of "engineers" in your country?
In some countries pretty well anyone can be called an engineer but in other countries there is a more precise legal definition. I have to assume that there is no legal protection of the term engineer in your country. Thus in companies that are engineering orientated there is a tendency for all sorts of jobs with an engineering type of role, even if they are not filled by qualified engineers, to have job titles will often include “engineer”: Sales engineer, Marketing Engineer, Product Engineer etc.

Qualified engineers, if allowed, could include engineering qualification on the card.
Be sure that how he describes himself to others is not simply self-aggrandisement but is because that is how your boss wants to see him presented to others, especially clients, as it describes the job function.

OK, Engineer II and Engineer III is a poor choice as the hierarchy can be II senior to III or the other way round, better to have Product Engineer and Senior Product Engineer.  

OK, your authority derives from your boss, himself an engineer, who has chosen to reward you with a better salary and authority in his absence.
How far does that authority extend? is it formalised? Is it in fact "authority" or is it that you are the first point of reference while he is away? Are you expected to supervise your colleague and do you attempt to do so? Are you expected to consult with him at any time and do you do so?

If you have no direct authority over your co-worker but simply to represent your boss in certain areas of activity then it may be that your co-worker has reason to think you are overstepping the mark.

"I politely tried to explain to him that just knowing algebra, and plugging numbers into excel does not make you an engiener, but that just made him mad."

It would me also, more so if said with a patronising politeness rather than in heated discussion. With some people you might expect a more violent reaction requiring medical intervention.

Are there other circumstances where you have acted in such a way as to make him only too well aware that you are more qualified than he is (or better paid?)? Have you shown that you don't consider his experience in any ways compares to your own and your qualifications?

The fact that he isn't formally qualified doesn't mean he is an idiot or incompetent, indeed, in almost any area of expertise there are many who are formally qualified who are  less able than those lacking formal qualifications.

In small offices informality is preferred and the emphasis may be on team work and getting on with each other.

If you are sure you have always treated him fairly and with appropriate respect then you should be comfortable insisting that he accepts the status quo now existing.
Be sure you are right before you attempt to escalate this. I’d suggest trying for a reconciliation first, go buy the man a drink and talk it through and if you get nowhere, then agree with him to “clarify” the situation with the boss.
Be prepared that what the may not be amused by a squabble over who has seniority or qualifications, especially if you have not properly understood the situation nor how you are expected to interact with your co-workers.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

2
sbozy25,

You need to learn to accept the things that you cannot change - life is full of them.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

This will be a fact of life through all of your career.  These creatures are not going away.  They almost always inflict suffering.

The only answer is to hone your people skills.  Do this while you are young, it will save you much pain.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

There you go, your second post clarifies his abilities or lack there of but you are right to wonder if he has some tenure that means you may just have to grin and bear it.... and why not? you're going corporate soon and he is staying where he is.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

i've experienced this before myself.  can someone tell me why we're so obsessed with the title of "engineer"??  its not like half the population even understands what we do anyway.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I was talking to a surgeon the other day who actually thought I made up "structural engineer".  She actually said, "What is that?  You just made that up, didn't you?"

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

StructuralEIT,

You should have explained to her that in a building, the Architect designs the skin, the Structural engineer designs the skeleton, and a mechanical engineer designs the organs. And ask her where she thought her pretty little hospital came from - a concrete stork?

sbozy25,

A bit of advice with dealing with people. Try and treat everyone as an equal. Those above you will take it as confidence, those below you will take it as respect.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

...and the Civil engineer designs the colon!

I keed, I keed...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

...and the electrical engineer designs the nervous system.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

DO YOUR JOB! Be humble, cover your butt.

You may be Right, but you work in a small company. If your company is as small am mine politics and friends and really make things interesting. If people/workers like him more and word gets around that you think your high on a pedestal, they can make life very hard for you.

I work for a small company 4 staff and 15 workers, I was in a similar situation of dealing with older people.  The only difference is the older engineer with 15 yrs experience that I was supposed to work with actually has an BSME –& supposedly a high GPA.   I have bit my tong so many times its ridiculous because of his FUBAR’s.   

The odd thing is my boss for some reason will not fire him.  Even thought he probably losses about 1000USD every week from mistakes.  When I tried to point this out, I was told to do my job, and I was to young to say anything.  Finally I got a good opportunity when he sent one system out the door that was not to industry standards, and another was being built. After working at home and work for 3 days to collect all the information, and do all the calculations, making sure I was ABSOLUTLY correct, and calling a couple people considered the issues unsafe to “get my back,” I walked into my bosses office and give him all the information about how dangerous his “engineering” was, and could potentially kill someone.  Oddly my boss asked me why I didn’t say anything earlier, I told him “well I tried but I was shot down the last time.”

Shortly after my boss demoted him to “sales rep” and made an “engineering” approval form which has to be signed by the “engineer”.  My boss stressed he was the “sales rep” and I am the “Engineer”, and he was not allowed the think of engineering anything.  

I actually felt bad because after the meeting the guy sat at his desk and sobbed for the next two days, without saying anything.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I guess the point is, like Csd, some things dont change...

I have a feeling if the major safety issue -IE. potential law suit- did not happen, the other guy would still be engineering and still FUBAR'ing everything.

and I would still be the KID engineer.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

jistre,

Of course it was designed by a civil engineer, who else would put a waste treatment works right next to the fun park.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Take heart. My worst job was in automotive, ISO9000 qualified. The engineering staff from the top down was a quality type acting as Chief Engr, and his two lieutenants were HS grads with some experience with drafting and quality processes. Their titles were Sr Proj Engr.

The folly of this setup was proven during a cost reduction program in which our supplier went to China for cost reduced acetal [not qaulified source] and then the product line suffered from extensive infant mortality. More than a few heads rolled, many of them innocent advocates of not going to China. The company was sold, and I hope the truth was exposed to the new owners.

Depart from those infernal organizations where engineers are not respected, and they are supervised by trained monkeys.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Unfortunately, my experience has been that those "infernal organizations" plasgears mentioned are far more typical than the ones that respect engineering.

Your situation is not uncommon.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

sbozy25,
I don't think you were out of line. My approach would be to let him get mad, stay cool, do my job. Write down everything when the boss is out, try to always have witnesses around.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

4
Sbozy, in my opinion you are wrong.

If you'd tried that algebra line with/around me I'd have had trouble not decking you there and then.  In fact if you'd pulled that line on some of the non degreed 'engineers' I've worked with and I found out about it I'd have had trouble not decking you.

I have my bachelors of engineering (not a 4 year, a 3 year cause we pull our finger out and don't waste time in the UKwinky smile I jest, I jest) but don't believe that alone makes me better than everyone without.

I've mentioned in previous threads that some of the best engineers I've worked with didn't have a bachelors and weren't chartered/PE.

Some of the worst Engineers I've worked with were Masters/chartered/PE.

I've also worked with lousy Engineer wannabes that didn’t have the knowledge/skill/experience/intelligence etc to be mentioned in the same breath as what I consider true engineers.  Which, at least in your opinion, is the category this guy seems to fall in.

Your conduct was unprofessional, though if in the heat of the moment understandable.  You probably should have told him to bring if up with your boss when he got back.

Assuming you're in the US exempt (or equivalent) then whether he gets to be called an engineer is up to your boss.  It's little if any of your business, if you have real concerns over it misleading customers or something take it up with your boss but after this blow up you may not have a leg to stand on.

You will in your career meet a lot of people that for one reason or another are difficult to work with, learn to deal.  If he'd had a degree and acted like this what would you have done/said?  

I still have trouble with this sometimes, I told my boss he could do whatever the **** he wanted with something just last week when I got really frustrated.  This was unprofessional to say the least, and not a smart move in anyone’s book!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I would argue that higher education is necessary before being dubbed an "engineer".  But, I would also argue that a 4 year degree isn't necessary.  

Don't let the idiot get to you.  It sounds like he is very insecure about the very thing that is bugging you about him.

Hang in there and throw him a curve ball whenever you think he needs a reality check.  LOL.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

On my first job, fresh out of college, I was titled "Designer".  Me and some other new hires got a little bent out of shape about it, because we had our degrees hanging on the wall, and couldn't have "Engineer" on our business cards.  Some long timers with only drafting experience had been promoted to become "Engineers".

But CSD27 is right.  It's one of those things you cannot change.  Kenat makes a good point also.  I have learned alot in my career from people less education than I have but more common sense.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Also, the title "Engineer" has different meanings at different companies, countries and disciplines.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I would refer to "Things you wish you could say to your work colleagues." In the language and grammer forum.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

A Humorous take:

"Dont argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience every time."

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I would tend to agree with lownox.  I don't think a 4 yr degree is necessary to be an engineer.  I am talking  in practicality now, not legality.  Obviously there are a ton or requirements to be an engineer per state regulations, but in order to have a good engineering fundamental background, I don't think you need 4 yrs of colllege.  I think you could easily get rid of the arts/humanities classes still be a competent engineer.  I know I don't ever use my Latin American History class notes to perform engineering work.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Frankly, the OP reads like a temper tantrum.  Even outside of engineering, we have all sorts of "unqualified" people in positions of power or running things.  That's life; you need to get over it.

There seems to be an undercurrent of inferiority complex.  Titles, and degrees are simply labels applied.  Skills and experience are what count.  This guy might well be an idiot, but he might be the owner's idiot relative and he might be your boss tomorrow; I've had worse as general managers.  Again, that's life; you either get along or move along.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

csd72- I have that on my cubicle wall, appended to include...

"Also, don't argue with me, I'll drag you down to the floor and beat you with a bat..."

In jest, of course... smile2

V

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I do feel that there is a big distinction between designer (with out engineering degree) and engineer.  And I also feel (from experience) that a designer can not do engineering work, but engineers can do designer work.  To be a designer, one has to be intimate with the hardware and thus knows how to "design" new hardware from past experience.  You really don't need an engineering degree for this.  However, to do engineering work, you have to understand how to do analysis in heat transfer, vibration, shock, static...etc (from a Mech Engr point of view) in order to spot potential problems and find solutions for those problems.  If the Engineers spend enough time with the hardware, just like the designer, s/he too can design new hardware and because of his Engineering Degree background can do better than a designer because at the same time designing knows where the potential problems may exist and the find solutions.  A designer with out an Engineering Degree can not do this.

With this said I do agree with what the OP feels.  I have in the past worked with vendors who call them selves engineers, but when things go wrong and I ask them if they did a heat transfer study or a vib study and I wanted to see the numbers, I get the “oh I don’t know how to do that” and I would say “well this is college lever stuff you should know how to do this” and they would say “well I do not have my engineering degree” and I would say “then how did you design this with out knowing your boundaries?” and the with a perplex look he said “well … this is what we did in the past”.  Wow that hurt.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Twoballcane, I can't remember if you were the person I had this debate with before but...

I've worked with non degreed Engineers who could do the analysis you refer to.  The Chief Stress Engineer at my place in the UK (Aerospace/Defense)  didn't have an Engineering degree but had forgotten more about stress analysis than I ever learnt at school.  There have been one or two others with similar status.

As such in my experience you are incorrect.

By the way sbozy, take a look at your previous post http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=194341 and reconsider what you said.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

"I would agree that unless you have a four year degree then you are not an engineer. "

Ooer then I'd better go and start driving trains because I am not fit to be in such august company.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Refering to bachelors as a 4 year degree is a pet peeve of mine too Greg.  I got mine in 3 in the UK as I believe did you.

Out of interest my wife got her bachelors in the US in 3 years while working more or less full time, it wasn't Engineering though.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

That's just ethnocentrism at work.  Americans, like myself, are mostly clueless about how education systems in other countries work.  Not even sure if we know how it works in the US.  Some people seem surprised to find out that they can get a bachelors degree in less than 5 years.

Of course, there was some guy who was a super-senior my freshman year and he didn't actually graduate until I did, 4 years later.  Supposedly, Introduction to Complex Variables took him about 5 yrs to get a passing grade.

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

The 3yr/4yr and bachelors/masters issue is worst when you cross the pond.  I got the impression "over there" that a bachelors in the US is wider ranging, with less engineering content than a bachelors in the UK.  So although 4 years have been spent at Uni, less than 3 years worth of pure engineering education has been received.  Hence the need for a masters to be employable.

This makes education levels impossible to compare between the two countries.

I might be wrong though...

- Steve

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

My last post may seem to suggest British engineers are better educated that their American counterparts.  It wasn't the intention.  To clarify, this is the typical experience most engineers of my generation have had:

- Up to 16 you study 8-10 diverse subjects.

- At 16 you are forced to decide your path in life by choosing 3 subjects (possibly 4 if you have enough stamina).  You then get to study them and nothing else for the next two years.  Most engineers would pick Maths, Physics and Chemistry.  This is one of the most intense parts of a future engineer's education (specially if you opt for "double maths").

- You choose an engineering degree, the university you can get into depends on the grades you made in the 3 chosen subjects.

- From day one at university, nothing but engineering subjects are taught.  If you've chosen a 4 year course you may get some business & management classes.  There is no concept of a "major".

Many educationalists in the UK think this is far too narrow and unnatural and constantly campaign for a wider education.  But for now that's the way it is and the reason we only need a three year course.

- Steve

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Yes, that's exactly the system I went through.

It might be fun to find my old class schedule from uni, roughly speaking it was 16-20 hours per week of lectures, 8-20 hours of labs (often the latter), and 2 hours of 2 on 1 tutorials. Plus report writing and projects and the homework for each tutorial.

That was pretty slack compared with A levels, where the terms were longer, and I had 3 hours of (admittedly fairly straightforward) homework or revision per night, on top of a usual schoolday.

Cheers

Greg Locock

SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

(OP)
HAHAHAHHAHAHA

Kenat, I had forgotten all about that thread.... Well, I suppose I proved my point didn't I?  This thread was started out of blind rage.... I just couldn't take it anymore, and was tired of this guy making our entire company look bad.... Oh well, as many of you have said... That is how life goes...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

When I interview new engineers, I would say that their people skills are 45% of the evaluation, and their tech skills are 55%.

I need to make sure I (and my staff) can work with these people, so with all due respect, I believe I would NOT have hired you, Sbozy25.

Office atmosphere is Everything, as far as I am concerned.

Don't sweat the small stuff...

tg

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

No problems sbozy, my telling my boss off last week wasn't exactly a well considered career move, especially considering my post about a year ago  about frustration.

IRstuff, wasn't a serious dig, until I moved hear I had no idea it took you slackers this side of the pond 4 yearswinky smile.  (I have a theory it's a scam by the education system to get more money seeing as most of you have to pay a lot where as in the UK it's heavily subsidized even today so they want to get you out ASAP.  Heck a few years ago I'd heard a suggestion in the UK that by not having a summer break they were going to create a 2 year bachelors in business/general studies/liberal arts type subject to speed things up/save money.)

Greg/Sompting that's pretty much it for me too.  Doing 4 A levels, including double math (pure & applied of course, none of that statistics nonsensewinky smile) while playing Rugby & Cricket (not literally at the same time) was a killer for me.

I find it amusing that in the UK a 4 year degree (straight from 'high school') would be a masters, while in the US it's a bachelors.

The thing that makes it difficult is that a lot of application forms this side of the pond ask if you have a 4 year degree, rather than if you have a bachelors.  I always have to consider my response, I normally just say yes but I suppose I could get called on it one day.

As to the 'breadth of knowledge' argument for having a bunch of other classes in addition to Engineering, I'm not sure it actually adds up.  I understand it's supposed to make you more well rounded but I've come across a lot more Engineers with very specific specialization &/or lack of soft skills in the US than in the UK.

Sorry, almost all of this is off topic.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

In Australia engineering is a 4 year degree (bachelors) with part of the last year spent on a thesis.

First years was maths,chemistry,physics and introductory engineering topics such as statics, other years were mostly straight engineering with some maths/stats/management thrown in.

szboy25,

This may sound like a contradiction to my previous posts, but I actually do understand your frustration on this matter. People who have not had the formal education tend to underestimate how much of a part it is in our everyday engineering decisions.

As I have said before, someone without the background education can understand 'what' to do, but you need the education to understand the 'why'. The why is very important when you do something that is out of the ordinary.

That said, as I said before, you need to learn to deal with these people without confrontation.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

(OP)
Well, thanks to all who responded, I find it interesting to see how everyone views this subject.  Now if only there were a way to lock this thread from any more responses.  Personally I don't appreciat some of the comments that seem rude to me, even if they weren't directed in that way, it came through that way.  I needed to vent, and wanted to see how you all felt about that subject, I know this is something I just need to deal with, and I will.  It just built up over time and I had not other good outlet for my frustration.  

and training... no offense, but I think even if you meant no disrespect... that comment about hiring was uncalled for.  You may feel that way, but you don't know me or what kind of a person I am.  But again, that is life... you are entitled to your opinion as am I and so is everyone else.  Again, just needed to blow off the steam, and quite a few of your responses made me laugh a good one!

PS.... HE WAS FIRED TODAY!!!!  the VP saw him come in late for the 17th day in a row, and marched him right out the door....  Good things to happen if you are patient I suppose!

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

This is a learning experience. You now know the views of others within different disciplines, companies and countries.
It was a matter of time that he was fired or quit.
Congrat's! Good luck to you.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

sbozy, with this type of post in this forum you tend to get any potential flaws in yourself highlighted.  

I got the same when I vented a few months ago and asked If I was wrong for wanting an Engineer disciplined for corrupting a bunch of data by doing something he shouldn't have.  Consensus of posters here was that I was just out to get the guy/stab him in the back and that as such I was some kind of pond scum.

Not what I was hoping for obviously but if that was the perception of most on here then it probably would have been the perception of most in the office here, so probably worth hearing.

The guy got cut in a bunch of layoffs in October last year, I’m pretty sure doing the type of thing I was venting about was part of the reason he was selected.  A bit harsher than what I’d wanted but I guess things catch up with you.

I like to think I’m better than most at accepting criticism/having my flaws pointed out and admitting my mistakes but maybe I have too higher an opinion of myself, cause sometimes it’s still real painful/annoying.

At least your irritation is removed now, just try and remember the above advice for next time, especially mine obviouslywinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Congratulations!!! Hope your next coworker is better!

I think it’s really funny, every time the 3yr Euro program vs. the 4yr US program are compared.   Can’t we all just get along???
 

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Sbozy25,

I think you are right - my comment was uncalled for, now that I re-read it.

Believe it or not,  I was actually trying to help...

tg

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I love how the Schools always say they have humanities to make engineering students well rounded.

My Anthropology class didn’t do anything but increase my arrogance toward liberal arts degrees.  The professor did her “research” on the spiritual practices of native people.  
This translated to, tripping on mushrooms, paotie cactus, other drugs, and “spiritual” 5exua1 acts.  It was such a joke.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

No they send you to humanities classes to get more money out of you.

Do the humanities students attend engineering classes to make them more rounded?

Engineering is a complicated profession, you only learn a fraction of it at university, why reduce that fraction by sending people to unrelated classes?

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Be more useful to go on creative writing classes.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Sure, given the contortions we go through to figure out specifications, every engineer should have a minor in English.

TTFN

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RE: Opininons of engineering status?

"minor in English"?  After reading a few contract documents and specifications lately, I'm strongly considering courses in Tarot, astrology and necromancy...

old field guy

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I would be highly in favor of requiring the following non-engineering classes (in addition to the usual calculus, physics, chemistry):

1.  Technical writing.  Two semesters.  If you get a B (typically a 3 on a 4-point scale) or better on the first one, the second can be waived.
2.  Public speaking (at least for CivEs, who have to interact with lots of other parties)
3.  Microeconomics.  (I would have said macroeconomics too, but I didn't understand a thing in my macro class and I seem to be OK.)
4.  Some kind of computer programming class.  Doesn't really matter what language or application, as long as you learn early on how to (a) use code to get what you want (b) reduce a tedious task to an algorithm.  (Related but slightly different concepts.)
5.  Statistics.  Could even be baby statistics for liberal arts majors, rather than heavy duty statistics for math majors.  Just to get the basic idea.
6.  For CivEs, geology.
7.  A foreign language, unless you had one in high school or earlier.  Doesn't really matter which one.  Once you've learned to understand that your native language isn't the only way things work, and have had the experience of getting your mind to go in another direction, learning further languages isn't nearly as big a deal.

I would have said it's a good idea to have history because those who forget are doomed to repeat etc., but one or two semesters of some specific history class or other are hardly going to scratch the surface.  Likewise literature.  At least with a social science you get a general idea in an intro class of how the field of inquiry is pursued.  There just ain't no way to do "Intro to History".

And yes, they do make the liberal arts majors take classes to make them more well-rounded.  They have to do a couple of simple math courses which would be trivial for you but for a lot of them are excruciating.  They often have to do some kind of non-calculus science classes (botany, geology, Physics for Poets).  I think the Fine Arts majors don't have to, but usually the liberal arts people do.

Hg

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RE: Opininons of engineering status?

HgTX just to give you some idea of my degree in the UK (late 90s Aero):

1. We had to do lots of reports, some of them fairly formal (including a major project/thesis) and had some training in how which touched on tech pubs but more would probably have been a good idea.
2. We had to give presentations to the class (70-150 people) but I can't recall if that was everyone or just project leader on group projects, again at least a little more may have been good.
3.  We did a combined managment, accounting & law course, not sure if this covered it to the depth you are suggesting.  It was laughably easy, I think one of my highest grades.
4.  We took 2 courses in C one each in 1st & 2nd year.  I think they were both double classes too.
5.  Basic statistics formed part of our math in I think it was the first year.  We'd also had to do some statistics at high school, for the most part that at uni was just revision.
6.  N/A
7.  If I recall correctly everyone had to have taken at least one foreign language for 2 or more years at equivalent of highschool.

So we more or less hit 6 of your 7.

Another thing, hardly any of our exams/tests etc were multi choice/fill in the bubble type tests.  Mostly they were long proofs of equations, plugging in numbers at the end for the more analytical courses and either essay or short answer for the others.  In fact I'm not sure we had any multi choice, maybe our US design prof gave us a couple, I can't recall for sure.  I understand these are common in the US, though she wasn't an Engineer so maybe it doesn't apply.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I like the idea of the "combined managment, accounting & law" course.

I don't think the average U.S. high school student gets statistics in high school (beyond how to find mean, median, and mode).  Or economics.  I'm sure some take those classes as an elective, but I didn't know anyone who did.  I don't even know if they were offered at my school; all my friends would have used their electives to take extra physics and chemistry classes anyway.  (I blew mine on music and on getting out of high school a year early.)

I'm not even going to start on the sorry state of foreign language education where I grew up.

Hg

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RE: Opininons of engineering status?

HgTX-
I took everything on your list except for geology.  

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I can't speak for other professions, but I don't see how anyone without a degree could engineer anything structurally.  People just like having the word "engineer" in their title.  Maybe, I need to chew out the handyman at my apartment complex for calling himself a "maintenance engineer", cause he does.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

As I posted in response to Twoballcane 12 Mar 08 15:34 the Chief Stress Engineer at my last place in the UK (Aerospace/Defense) didn't have a degree and wasn't Chartered (PE).

He did have a HNC &/or HND (can't recall which) and had done an apprenticeship but no degree.

He'd started out at Folland (as in the Gnat) as I recall.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

HgTX, as others have said, all of your suggestions were required as part of my degree, except geology, but them I'm a Mech.  We also were required to take 'Law for Engineers'.

For my 'humanities' courses, I took the logical route - Management/Industrial Relations, and basic Accounting.  They seemed to be the most logical additions to an engineering degree.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I think part of the problem is that the term engineer is thrown around so loosely, that many people think anyone can be an "engineer" and, as a result, we lose a bit of status with the general public.  As someone pointed out earlier, anyone can get an idea of what to do based on what's been done in the past (and maybe it will work for a while), but that is building, not engineering.  You have to know what to check and why, not just throw some sizes at something and think it will work - because it probably will for a while, but probably will not when subjected to forces that it should have been DESIGNED for.  

Kenat-  I understand that your chief streess engineer was a great engineer without a degree, but I would venture to say that he is the exception, not the rule.

Why is it that anyone can put enginer behind their name?  Not anyone can say they are a doctor (in an actual busines setting), or a lawyer.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

haha, HgTx, doesn't matter if you took those classes or not, you'll likely forget everything you learned in them by the time you graduate anyway...the only thing that even remotely sticks is the engineering concepts that shows up over and over again in coursework.  i too took everything in your list (except speech, which for some reason wasn't required only for me out of every other eng. grad).

i think universities already go way over board with the non-tech. requirements.  seems like they just want an extra year of tuition out of you.  we've already done the history, foriegn languages,etc. in high school so why the overkill??  if anything, they need to focus more on workplace skills specific to your major.  how many threads on these boards talk about dealing with people at work, or bad bosses or cubicle ghosts, or dealing with different personality types or getting along professionally with people you don't like or work environments that are less than satisfactory, etc..universities just don't prepare you for what's out here.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

calguy,"they need to focus more on workplace skills " maybe that is why they make us take gen-ed classes????
So we learn how to play nice in teams with people not as smart as us, like a pluralism project on the discrimination towards people in fraternity’s and sorority’s that takes three all-night-ers to make a 10 slide .pp presentation.   
We can deal with getting told what to do by less qualified superiors, like a professor with a superiority complex that got their PhD in "communicating with your inter-self" which gets offended when you point out a clear mistake which they make.   
 

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

I also took those classes HgTX recommends, excluding tech writing. We had a Comp 101 requirement, but I took it for college credit in high school. I also took 3 years of college Spanish in high school, so was exempt there. Statistics, C++, Econ (macro or micro), and speech were required. I also took pyschology 101 and biology 101.

To me, this doesn't seem excessive. And contrary to others' opinions, I think your education does stay with you, engineering or not. Perhaps if you snooze through the courses and scrape by on your homework it won't, but I can still write coherently, give a speech, explain why we're screwed with high inflation and low interest rates, statistically analyze data sets, and speak enough Spanish to get un-lost in Mexico. I can't tell you a lot about psych or bio, but I sure understand most medical information I read. I found my bio class to be helpful, too, since I took some biomechanical engineering classes.

I don't see a large amount of value in courses like Human Sexuality or Star Wars as Literature, but some basic gen-ed or humanities courses aren't going to kill us.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Gymmeh, that's what i was trying to get at and would have explained it a bit better before if i hadn't been rudely interrupted by the work i actually had to get done..lol.

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Structural EIT, I always use the stress guy as my example because his job position best showed off his abilities.  However I've worked with several others.  

My first boss had come from a UK government dockyard and had actually been the head of the apprenticeship training scheme there (I guess like being a senior lecturer at community college or something).  He'd also forgotten more about stress analysis and other things than I learnt in uni.  He too didn't have a degree and nor was he chartered.

There were several others with similar qualifications etc that In my opinion were more than entitled to use the title engineer.

It may be a cultural thing or something, in UK defence for guys in their 40s or older it really wasn't unusual for Engineers to have come through a formal apprenticeship with HNC/HND (I guess a bit like an associates degree for you unfamiliar with the terms) rather than Uni.

In the US I've only met maybe one guy that didn't have a Bachelors/PE that I would have though could reasonably claim to be an engineer.  He would never claim it, he's too modest, but I'd say it wasn't unreasonable barring any legal implications.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Opininons of engineering status?

My point, in part, is that not everyone gets all of that in high school--and most of my list was not on the curriculum of anyone I know from the U.S. (of those I've had this sort of conversation with, of course), except the foreign language part, and even that is not a universal requirement.  I'm all for placement tests to get rid of any requirements, whether it's Russion or vector calculus, that the student already has covered.

It's stuff everyone should know, and if you've been through a stats class or an econ class, even if you can't sit down and solve a problem set, you have a basic understanding you wouldn't have had without it.  I didn't even get into what engineering classes outside of your particular specialization should still be required (for instance, I had to take a basic circuit theory class, and that was a good thing).

I was listing the minimum non-engineering classes that should be part of an "engineering-only" curriculum.  A lot of the people who are products of a nominally engineering-only curriculum chimed in to say they'd had those classes, which is great.  I know a lot of engineers who'd prefer a program where it was nothing but math and science and engineering classes, and I just don't think that would be a good idea, even if it might be easier.

Hg

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RE: Opininons of engineering status?

Hg,

I wasn't promoting the engineering-only curriculum, just describing it as it is here to try to explain why our engineering degree courses are shorter than some in other countries.

- Steve

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