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Question about work environment
7

Question about work environment

Question about work environment

(OP)
I have an awkward situation at my job.  I worked on a project a couple months ago.  I had some problems with it, meaning it took me longer than it should have and we were at budget.  There was also another project where I was working with another engineer and we were close to budget (for reasons I won't go into but was not entirely my fault).  Anyways, we had a meeting with me another engineer, the company principal, and the head office engineer.  The head office engineer said in the meeting that he had "lost patience with me" and that's why he's not working with me anymore.  Since then (actually, since before that) he has not spoken to me.  It's awkward, especially since we have a small open office with 6 engineers.  There may have been some work problems, but I don't think it's right for him to act like that.  I feel weird.  when new projects come in, he asks others what they are working on and if they can take on the new project, except for me.  He hasn't asked me, so I'm currently working with another engineer; helping him on his projects.  I'm uncomfortable there, and am debating whether or not to send him an email asking him to meet after work to speak about our situation.  
Does anyone have any comments on this situation.
Thanks

RE: Question about work environment

Wow, tough situation there. If I understand you correctly the head engineer for whom you work under is not speaking to you. If thats true, it's completely unacceptable behavior. I would do two things in this order:
1. Update my resume and start job hunting immediately
2. Speak to the guys supervisor and make him aware of the situation and pray he does not condone the behavior

RE: Question about work environment

First, the way he is acting is completely unprofessional. I don't have to like the people that I work with (as a matter of fact I don't like a lot of them). However, a work environment requires cordiality, and as an engineer, one should hold him/herself in a professional manner.

I think the grievances need to be aired, and worked out. You should be the bigger person, and say that you don't want the work relationship to continue like this. Meet with him, and try to work things out.

Failing that... If this person can make you feel that bad at work, then you shouldn't work there anymore.

V


RE: Question about work environment

Focus on working hard for your current engineer to ensure that you meet budget. Dont let these things distract you from doing your job well.

Leave thoughts of moving until after hours.

Your manager is being immature about this, maybe he realises that he underquoted on those projects.

RE: Question about work environment

I would just quit and find a different job.  I wouldnt want to be in that environment.  The thing is he is the head engineer and his position is higher than you.  I think it is a losing battle and you will never be labeled "good" engineer.  If he was just another engineer like you, then that is a different story.  

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

RE: Question about work environment

2
I would say that you have reached that magical point where it is time to move on.  When the head engineer says that he has 'lost patience with you', to me that indicates that there have been several areas where you have not, for whatever reason, measured up to whatever it is that he expects.  Who knows why?  He said that in a meeting with the company principal there, so what on earth is anyone going to do about it?

Focus on doing your work well, properly, and timely, and look for another position elsewhere.  But do not badmouth anybody, because the world is a small place.

Life is too short to work in an environment like that.

RE: Question about work environment

I agree what others have said that the engineer is unprofessional.  I was in a similar situation once.  An engineer I worked for ignored me because he was mad at me about some project.  I would definitely leave if it can't be handled with a one-on-one. Our guys here always get on each others nerves but by the next minute are buddy buddy again.

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
that's my next step.  I'm going to try and talk to him via email.  I'm going to send an email telling how I feel politely.  I was leaning toward just leaving, and not dealing with it.  I don't know, I just don't think it's a very good environment.

RE: Question about work environment

faromic80,

If this does work out then dont get mad just get even. Make sure you maintain the demeanor of a consumate professional until the moment that you hand in your notice.

RE: Question about work environment

2
I worked with engineers like that before. Once, I asked his manager and mine into a meeting and asked him to come in and talk. I put everything out onto the table, off the record. Since then, he had more respect for me (the managers did also). Try to work it out verbally with him (with witnesses) first. If it doesn't work, one of you will transfer or quit.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 2.0
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

RE: Question about work environment

What can you do to improve your performance?

RE: Question about work environment

If you really want to fix this situation as oppose to just leave, I would talk to him in person with his boss present.    I would schedule a meeting with the head engineer, the principal and yourself.  The principal wants the company to be successful and having an engineer working for him that is ignored by his boss cannot possibly help the company succeed.  He will want this problem resolved as well.

If you need to use email to schedule the meeting make sure the principal is CC'd on everything.  Keep the email short.  The email is not where the problem will be fixed but in the discussions that follow.

RE: Question about work environment

3
E-mail?
Meet the guy by the coffee machine or go to his cubicle.
E-mail is like trying to keep away from physical contact. It suggests you are nervous of him.
Communication is always best face to face and verbal and don't forget it is also very visual.
But, by going face to face you also put him at a disadvantage. You are the one making the first move and he must react to that. He, having said his piece may actually mean it and is waiting for you to go or he had just been reamed out and was lashing out. Maybe on reflection he recognises he has been unfair but he doesn't have an exit; a face saving way out and, as senior, he may feel that he would lose some authority approaching you.
You're going to him openly and calmly may be all you need to do.
Think about the various attitudes that could be assumed and feel for the best.
You could be going to him upset, aggressive and ready to slug it out verbally. You could be going to him looking for him to use his management and mentoring skills.

Appologetic? deferential? what will put him at ease or at a disadvantage?

Don't ask what the problem is, he will bluster. Tell him yo've been thinking and would appreciate if he could show you he thinks you went wrong and perhaps he wouldn't mind showing you how to do it better. Play to his ego.
Don't spend to much time at it unless you start to get some positive results.
If you are not satisfied with his response, say so and say why. Say that he is in charge and you expect him to provide you with a professional evaluation and assistance to perform better.

If you don't get satisfaction then advise him that you feel you must take the issue further and will get some advice on your next steps. This should make him concerned as to what those steps are.

Go to HR, but do so initially in an "off the record" mode asking them for advice on how to handle the matter explaining that you feel he is upset but has refused to explain nor given any better management of you as you would have expected if he is unhappy with your work. Be sure to tell them what steps you have taken.

Try not to make this your problem but try to make it appear to be his problem in that he has reacted against you and is not acting as you would expect a manger to act toward a subordinate.
HR ought to appreciate the of the record approach and you will probably get a sympathetic hearing if you are simply seeking help and advice and if you do not appear to be critical of him. Plenty of time for that later.
If it doesn't improve the situation then you can consider going on the record which will involve, and should in any case, keeping a note book/diary.

But please, not an email. The personal touch.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Question about work environment

Start looking for another job.  You may be able to recover this one but frankly the odds are against you.

To try and be proactive in the current job I'd probably try and speak face to face rather than email as others have said.  Email can be great for leaving a virtual paper trail to cover your proverbial, however in this situation I don't think it should be your first choice.

Ask him what you can do to improve yourself/regain his confidence however you word it, more or less as JMW put above.  Make sure and get specifics if it's to be of any help to either of you.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
I did send out some resumes, but the market is tough.  

I did speak face to face Friday after work.  I got the feeling that he is not a big fan of me, but did say that it is his responsibility to help me in the office environment.  He said,"I don't have to like you out of here, but here, I'm here for you."  I did ask him what I can do to improve he gave me a little feedback.  He told me the office was for thick skinned people and that I was told that on the interview, which I was.   I'm going to try and push through it and see what happens.  Thanks all

RE: Question about work environment

Given that you were told the office is for "thick skinned" people at the interview, means he has no intention on changing his behavior.
I had a boss like that, after a mass exodus began, and during the exit interview with HR, one of the guys said the reason he was leaving was because of the boss.  
His bosses had a heart to heart, and phone call with the guy that left.  
The boss changed his behavior, but it is hard for him not to go back to his old ways, when things get tense, he reverts.  
That was a big company, with a lot of check and balances.

RE: Question about work environment

"Thick skinned" means he expects to be aggressive and get away with it. He probably sees engineering as some sort of wild west pioneering environment but in reality it is his lack of people skills or man management skills that is the problem and rather than admit it he presents it as a problem for other people not having thick skinned or having sufficient bottle.

Be interesting to see if he is himself thick skinned....but wait till you have alternative employment lined up before you try it.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
As I said earlier, I spoke to him face to face after work.  He said he was here for me and that he had no problem with me.  He had a problem with that job and said he just didn't want to work with me for the time being.  I've always felt since I got there like an outsider.  There are only 5 enginners there, and they've all been there over 4 years, and two since the company opened 10 years ago.  I feel like he favors the others and puts more effort into answering their questions than he does answering my questions.  His answers are longer for others.  I don't really know what to take from it, but I am working with him on a project now so we'll see how it goes.  Hopefully, he will come around sooner or later.

RE: Question about work environment

Quote:

He said he was here for me and that he had no problem with me.  He had a problem with that job and said he just didn't want to work with me for the time being.
This is a contradiction.
He has not answered you properly. If he has no problem with you, why does he not want to work with you ... for the time being?
How is he there for you?
At the very least you should expect him to be more involved with your work, not less. He should be taking a more hands on approach which would involve him making an effort to provide you with closer supervision so that he can help you identify your problems and remedy them.
 
A log book/diary is appropriate to record incidents and comments. Often, when a situation matures into a confrontation in front of management or HR, your recollection of isolated incidents and subjective comments can seem trivial, especially in the face of an assured and strong denial by someone who will undoubtedly then claim to be fair and who will then probably accuse you of having "personal problems" or problems interacting with people etc.

It also occurs to wonder if this is an isolated incident. You could try talking to some of your fellow workers, especially those who have been there for some length of time to ask what they think about his attitude to you and also to ask what they think went wrong with the previous projects that he has got in such a state about it. If you can't get serious engineering related advice from him, try for it from your colleagues.

[quote]Hopefully, he will come around sooner or later.]/quote]
You say you were at budget on one and close to budget on another. Budget over-runs are not unusual and thus one has to question if perhaps the problem is that before the projects completed he had been making claims to senior management that these would be brought in "well under-budget". Also not to be over-looked is that he made his comments, not in private to you but in a meeting where he has done the maximum damage to you.
This is not, in my opinion, professional. Indeed, it smels to me like "scape-goating". He isn't going to come round.

The question is, what is your work environment like now? How much is this affecting you?
How is it likely to affect your career prospects?
At some point you may need to approach HR to get the work situation resolved. You may need to take some legal advice.
I suggest that you take some time and write up a detailed account of the incident at the meeting and of the two projects. You may also try and get some comment from others.

What you have to face is the prospect that the work environment may bring with it some health issues as you are now under sustained stress and you also have to be careful about how the worry affects home life. Also, you need to ask what is this doing to your career prospects both within this company and when you try to move on.
Then too, you only know what he has said to you in the meeting, you do not know what he has said to the management nor what is now in your personnel file.

Don't take this too lightly, don't simply assume that it is a case of working extra hard to prove yourself, it may be that this is a wasted effort if he is being unfair. If you think he was unfair then it isn't your engineering and being a better engineer isn't going to help.

Sanity check: talk with your co-workers in a relaxed off-site environment, talk to them individually and see from the first discussion if you can establish what is gong on.

Some times "bullies" get away with it because they can. They may often pick on new employees because they are less sure of themselves and don't know what to expect.

However, if you discover the criticisms valid, if your co-workers will tell you you messed up, then learn from it. Still, if that is the case then it is for your "mentor" to help you bring your standards up to expectation. Ultimately that is for the head engineer, it is his team and he is answerable for its quality and performance.

It may be that there have been a succession of people who have joined, been scape-goated and left with a stain on their reputation. If so, and if it gets nasty, you might need to talk with some of them. You were employed as a replacement? or as part of expansion? i.e. did you replace someone and why did they go (always a question during interviews).

In any event, get that CV out there and look for a new job. You may need a refuge...

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Question about work environment

Faromic80,

Unless you need this job to put food in your kid's mouths, leave now - life is too short.

The guy sounds like an A-hole.

tg

RE: Question about work environment

Delicate situations are better taken care of in person, in my opinion.  Email leaves to much room for misinterpretation.  It's to impersonal... again, just my opinion.  good luck with it.

RE: Question about work environment

Your boss's behavior is very unprofessional, and in fact, constitutes a hostile work environment. I recommend you write out several speaking points that highlight the good things that you have done and be prepared to address any mistakes you have made and request a meeting with him and his supervisor. Try to get an open dialog going. Don't be overly appologetic, rather emphasize your desire to improve. Firmly, but respectfully demand detailed explanations of why your performance is not acceptable. DO NOT get defensive!

I second the comment that these sorts of matters are best handled face to face with a third person also present. Also, tune up your resume and start putting out some feelers because he may just be a crappy boss.

RE: Question about work environment

keep your counsel to yourself. Do not discuss your issues with your peers either.

Always keep a backdoor open and look for other work. At least you are doing everything your can, you never know what may turn up, but keep it to yourself. How may year's experience do you have? Are you mobile?

In a small environment like that he sounds manipulative, unfair and probably a borderline personality. He sounds like he will rewrite history too, a stalinist revisionist, confusing you. Essentially, you don't want to spend your time looking over your shoulders, worrying about his moods, looking for approval or playing the pecking order game. It is not healthy. This situation is more common than most people will admit.

If you can't have a different boss, go for the open road, there is a lot of opportunity out there.
 

Robert Mote
www.motagg.com

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
Here's an update:  
  I did speak to him a couple days after I started the thread.    It's been better.  He seems more willing to help me now.  A couple times I think I asked too many questions and he got a little irritated.  But I still feel very nervous about making a mistake.  I'm not sure if it's me or if I'm intimated/fearful of making a mistake.  I've gotten so nervous that I've made silly mistakes like instead of using 40 psf for the uplift of a canopy I used 75 psf.  I couldn't figure out why my moment at the base of the canopy was so high, so I asked him.  He told me I was confusing him and then he noticed I was using gravity load instead of uplift load.  I felt so stupid because these kinds of mistakes are uncharacteristic of me.  I guess I need to learn to relax a bit more, but I was still considering leaving/looking for another job just for the sake of what rtmote said:  it's not healthy.  Just wanted to update everyone in case this can help someone some day.

RE: Question about work environment

Faromic80,

I was in a similar situation in my first year in the job, back in 1989.

I had gotten so tense and nervous, that I was not able to perform the functions of an engineer, all because of the relationship with my supervisor.

I decided 6 months into the job that I would quit, and worked for 6 more months (I'm not sure why).

I was so unhappy, that my mindset was:

If I spend the rest of my life in the gutter, quitting will still have been the right decision.

I then was out of work for approx. 3 months, but I was young and no kids or rent to pay.

I then got a job at a great small firm, with a much more respectful, trusting boss.  I worked there for 7 yrs, very hard, but very happy.  And get this:  NO sunday night stomach ache!  This is what working is supposed to be like.

I won't bore you with the next few years' details, but suffice it to say I am now part owner of a consulting engineering firm, with what I believe is a good reputation.

By the way, I ran into my former "supervisor" approx. 6 yrs after quitting, and get this - he apologized to me for having been such a jerk - he attributed it to stress, etc.  He also said he had seen great potential in me.

Newsflash - I now supervise young engineers and designers and I am very stressed as well - but I do NOT treat them with disrespect.

I still think the guy was an A-hole - even after the apology.

You need to leave this job.

tg

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
I know all about the Sunday night stomach ache. I had it so bad, it was every night and every morning and even during the day.  I have relaxed some, but for some reason and still uncomfortable.  I don't know why.  I'm not expecting someone to pat me on the back all the time telling me what a good job I did, but I'm not getting feedback.  I don't think the feedback thing is a big deal in the big picture, but I was planning on staying here for now, just trying to push through.    Although a lot of people are advising me to look for a different job.  My old employer actually called me that they have a position available.  Actually, he's called me 3 times the last couple months, but I declined because I like the type of work here; working with architects and building design.  The other job is more industrial building type of design.  At some point though, I may have to start looking at my health and how this is affecting me.

RE: Question about work environment

Why do you care what this jerk thinks?  You make it seem this this guy is your father, and are desperate for his approval.  Do your best, and then let the chips fall where they may.  You need to learn to deal with difficult people.

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
I agree, I could probably deal with him better, but it's not like I'm not dealing with him at all.  Read above.  he didn't talk to me and he's my superior.  I should start caring less what he thinks, that is right.

RE: Question about work environment

If he wants to act like a spoiled child, then let him.  If you let him get under your skin, that you are just as bad as him.  Do your best, act professionally, and forget about the rest.

RE: Question about work environment

Oh, come on, allowing oneself to be upset by an upsetting person is NOT just as bad as actually being the jerk.  Not everyone has the zenmaster ability to turn the other cheek with no hard feelings.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Question about work environment

Notice that his attitude has an element of "self-fulfilling prophecy" in it; he tells you he is unhappy with your work and what is happening? you are starting to make simple mistakes that you know you shouldn't make.

That he is now starting to talk to you isn't actually taking you in the right direction.
All that is happening is that you are starting to justify his original perception and you have to ask if it is telling you something about this guy's style.

If you can't find a way out of this, and you must recognise that so far, even though he now appears to be trying to be helpful, he is actually making things worse, you have to ask where it is going to end.

Logically your performance may continue to deteriorate, and your health, and you will end up fully justifying his original position.
Then what happens? he will let you go and you will have some tough interviews to come and he may permanently affect your confidence and your future career.

You need to solve this problem before it gets that far. It doesn't look like there is a solution with this guy or maybe even with this company.

I'd say you either look for a position with another company that lets you do what you want to do or you commit to a few more years at your old employer until you get your confidence back.
But in reality I'd guess you may be going back under more favourable terms and certainly you will be working in a more conducive environment.
But don't assume it is just going to be your old job. Talk seriously with them and see what they have to offer you. You might be surprised by what they can offer you to make it interesting enough for you to go back to them and you lose nothing by talking.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Question about work environment

This sounds like a young engineer, that is easily pushed around by a bully of a manager.  The easiest way to defeat a bully is to not be threatened by them.  In this case, that means letting this guy act like a child, and you being the grown up.

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
I realize that, but it was kind of tough since he was not speaking to me and was kind of reluctant to work with me.  It's different being a jerk and me brushing it off, and it's another thing to completely disregard someone. That's much more difficult to overcome in a small work environment.

RE: Question about work environment

When someone calls you three times in a month that knows your work and wants you back, you need to talk. You are in a strong position. Be up front and tell him what you really want and se what he says. He may find you something as interesting or he may accept that you might not be with him for ever, try and agree a commitment to a minimum time. Work out a contract that lets you have a get out clause after a certain period but commits you for a minimum period.
 

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
 

RE: Question about work environment

Change is good, even if you go with your old firm. Change lets you write the future. You need to get to a positive platform, relax and breathe again.

Be sure not to complain about the current scenario. These are private, personal and great learning curves. Analysing and dissecting with people not knowledgeable with the dynamics, is a waste of time and people start to think you are part of the problem too.

This situation is far more common than most people realise. Keep the knowledge in your eyes and observe. You will encounter again.

Robert Mote
www.motagg.com

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
I thought about leaving my current firm, but am very worried about "job hopping"  I had a beginner position at my first job and left for a company that paid much more after 6 months.  I knew I would learn more at the new company.  They were in power plant industry and so I didn't get to do the building design/coordinate with architects which is what I enjoy.  I left there after a year and I've been with this small company now for about 14 months.  We do midrise, highrise, low rise, basically all kinds of design all materials.  I'm in some financial trouble now, and am thinking about leaving (let alone from the stuff that happened above, which did improve after I spoke to him) to go back to my old company which has excellent (20 times better insurance for families) benefits.  I just had a child so this kind of came up.  For one, I don't want to job hop.  Second, I'll be doing structural design, but not with architects and I'm scared I'll lose out on valuable experience for the future.  What do you think?  Does anyone have any input?
Thanks

RE: Question about work environment

People always go back to go forward. Your decisions must also reflect your realities. You get a win-win  and I do not believe you will be judged as job-hopping, you're still learning. If you were job-hopping you would be seeking obscene money, always going to the highest bidder. the best experience, in the longer run, for structural engineers is site experience, that trumps architects. The learning curve with architects is fast and does not need to be a critical factor in your work unless it is what you want to do. I work more with geotechnical, piping and mechanical engineers and every once ina while, deal with architects. You should have a rich mix of people. It will get better and some things you just have to do, answer your own question. I believe you are set to go, if you don't you'll just wonder about that crossroad in life, for a long time.

Robert Mote
www.motagg.com

RE: Question about work environment

When we get a resume, we don't see the salaries you got from your job changes, but we do see the 1-yr tenures, so it'll scream "job hopper," and not "diligent learner."

You say that you have money troubles; was that self-induced or an act of nature?  If the former, then changing jobs will simply postpone the reckoning; Walt Kelly's Pogo summed it up with, "We have met the enemy, and they are us."

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Question about work environment

(OP)
It's an act of nature

RE: Question about work environment

Views from afar:

1.  Apparently, there have been several incidents that did or could have led to the current situtation. Try to look back, very critically, at your own performance.  I'm not saying you did anything wrong, and I'm not saying the other guy's right, just saying you do need to look at your own performance critically.

2.  What I find wromg with the other guy's behavior are the following:
(a) I believe in the principle of providing praise in publicm and critism in private.  His public critism of you just makes things worse for all.
(b) if your performance is really inadequate to the point he won't send you work, then he should have the guts and integrity to put it in writing, and urge you to resign or be fired.

The ONLY POSSIBLE, SEMI-legitimate motive I can see in his behavior (and this is a stretch), is does he want you to quit on your own, so he doesn't have to start a negative personnel action?

RE: Question about work environment

If big-wigs were in the meeting with you when he said that and they didn't look horrified or embarrassed, I wouldn't be as concerned with the professionalism of the Head(case) Engineer  as with the professionalism of the high-ups. Find you a new job ASAP.

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