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Engineer Arrested
2

Engineer Arrested

Engineer Arrested

(OP)
Take a look at this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23454581/

The indictment document is available online too.

I think that the guy is being made a scapegoat.

RE: Engineer Arrested

For attesting to something that was demonstrably not true?

That's not a scapegoat.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Engineer Arrested

Jeez, the guy's 82, he looks 100.  He certainly attested to things that don't exist, per the indictment, but he sounded like he wasn't really all connected during the questioning

TTFN

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RE: Engineer Arrested

This is weird.  The only thing I can tell is that he specified steel framing in an existing building for the roof.  He then states that he went to the site just before they closed up the building and "saw" steel framing was completed "in the right place".  

After the construction, there was a fire.  The building, or a portion of it collapsed.  Two men were killed.  There was an investigation and in questioning the engineer under oath he states that he saw the steel.

They determine that there was no steel in the building.

They charge the engineer with lying under oath.

So .... what doesn't add up is that the engineer:

a.  Saw the steel and someone then removed the steel later.
b.  Didn't see the steel but said he did, thinking he could get away with lying.

Option a. doesn't seem realistic.

Option b. means the guy is totally stupid.

I just don't know.

RE: Engineer Arrested

He did the inspection when he was 74, so unclear whether he was fully functional then, unclear whether he's fully functional now.

TTFN

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RE: Engineer Arrested

What confused me was this statement by the press:

"the engineer signed off on plans to replace the Walton Avenue building's roof, which was supposed to include steel beams, frames and bolts. But during a fire in August 2006, the floor collapsed, killing two firefighters."

So, regardless of whether or not the steel was there, that is immaterial.  The firefighters died because the FLOOR collapsed, not the roof, which is what he designed to be replaced.  Hpw does that involve him?  I think that the scapegoat scenario is very plausable here.  

It also states that some of the columns were rotted.  It does not state that he was to recertify the building in his contract via a total structural inspection of the building condition.  Some rot is hard to detect without some destructive testing.  The guy is being framed...  And with a name like Vargas...  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder...

Really, there are too many unanswered questions here.  Something is rotten, and it is not just the columns.

I'm glad I gave up my New York License...

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Engineer Arrested

agreed with Mike

ZillionM
'shock and vibration protection is our business'

RE: Engineer Arrested

The guy is being charged with lying under oath.

If he has his "wits" about him enough to draw up designs, and specify steel and fabrication techniques, he is capable to stand charges of lying under oath.

Being old does not make you an invalid.

RE: Engineer Arrested

100yr old guy = Perfect Scapegoat... I am surprised they are not charging him with murder...

Maybe i will stop looking for jobs in NYC...

Another thing that didnt make sense... Two summers ago they charged a motorcyclist for murder when a cop tried to follow him at over 120mph, the cop crashed and died...  the motorcyclist didn’t even know a cop was behind him.


RE: Engineer Arrested

What does the guys age have to do with anything?  He lied.  He knew the risks of falsifying documentation.  He should pay the price.  Right?

RE: Engineer Arrested

This seems to be more complex than each individual news story would make it.  There is the issue of what was the engineer's scope, what did he attest to, and then what caused the floor to collapse?
I am in the camp that says if you are able enuf to design something, and take the responsibility to inspect it, you are able enuf to answer questions about the issue.  However, it has been several years since the work occurred.  Perhaps the Engineer is no longer as capable as he once was.
I find it hard to to call him either a scapegoat or a liar without seeing all the facts collated.

RE: Engineer Arrested

He was certainly prodded to answer a certain way when questioned.  Were I his lawyer, I would certainly claim that excessive coercion and leading questions had been applied.

TTFN

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RE: Engineer Arrested

And we all KNOW that the press would never "embellish" one part of fail to mention another to make a story a bit more interesting.  And they ALWAYS get all the facts right...

old field guy

RE: Engineer Arrested

(OP)
My thinking is along the lines of Mike Mc & IRstuff. This issue brings up certain questions:

a) What was the root cause of the collapse?
b) Who determined the root cause and what were their qualifications?
c) Did the engineering done by Mr. Vargas have anything to do with the collapse?
d) Did the contractor do the work according to the drawings?
e) Was the building properly maintained?
f) Was the original design & construction of the building properly done?
g) Should this not be an issue for the state board to address rather than the Bronx DA?

There are plenty of buildings in NYC that are of wood roof/floor/column construction. Simply not having steel structural components does not mean that a building is structurally deficient.

All of these questions & comments should be addressed before taking actions that lead to the tarnishing of someone's character.

RE: Engineer Arrested

I don't think he's being scapegoated.  He just got caught.  Like getting pulled over for speeding with a bale of weed in the back seat.  His engineering may not have caused the collapse, but the collapse revealed his misconduct.

RE: Engineer Arrested

Nowhere in the article or the indictment, does it state he is responsable for the collapse or death of the fire fighters.  The news article summarizes it:

"Vargas is accused of lying to investigators who were trying to find a cause of the fatal fire."

The lawyer questioning him is not all that coherent either.

RE: Engineer Arrested

If he thinks he inspected it 6 years ago, he may not even be remembering the right building.  These things all start to run together after a while.  Ask a doctor about an operation he did 6 years ago and see if he remembers it.  You don't have to be 80 for that to happen.

Ideally, he'd have some sort of notes indicating what he inspected and when.

They mention in the article about him "signing off" on the drawings, and it's not clear what is meant.  If he signed as-built drawings showing that it was built that way, then that would be the real issue, and the testimony is just a side note.  If he designed the steel but didn't ever inspect it or certify that it was there, I don't know that they could get him for much.  You'd think the city would have inspected it if it was that big an issue as well.

RE: Engineer Arrested

I think you all are missing the point of the indictment.

He is being blamed:

NOT for the collapse, etc.

BUT for lying under oath that he inspected the roof and saw steel when in fact it turned out he didn't see steel.

Whether or not the roof had anything to do with the collapse is moot.  His answers were not accurate or truthful and he therefore interfered with the process of discovery in the courts.

And that interference is what they are blaming him for.  Not the collapse.

RE: Engineer Arrested

JAE:

I hear what you are saying here.  I do understand the ramifications of perjury, but, as you previously pointed out in one of your posts here, where is the evidence that he was lying here?  The lack of steel in the building - good point.  I'll admit that that looks damning.  However that still does not eliminate, as you suggested, the scenario that the steel was removed by the owner.  Did the owner have an interest or motive to do this?  I don't know.

We know little of the reputation of the owner here either.  What was his reputation as a building owner for maintenance, and documented or undocumented structural changes to mention a couple of concerns.  I think there is more here than meets the eye.  There is a history.

Moreover, I thought the burden of proof was on the plaintiff, not the defendant.  This was a criminal case - not a civil one.  Where is the physical proof that the owner was not at fault here?  To me, the fact remains that he may have really seen the steel in place.  Other than the fact that the steel was not there at the time of the fire, I have not seen conclusive proof that he did not physically see the steel.  I see reasonable doubt here.

After all the information comes to light, he just may be lying.  But, with the limited information I have, I cannot say that.  I would really like to see the court transcripts.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Engineer Arrested

"To me, the fact remains that he may have really seen the steel in place."
Or at least thought he saw the steel. Would the 'steel' have been coated with a fire proofing foam (or whatever that stuff is)? Could wood have been used, but been made to look like structural steel with the fire proofing?

If steel was used, surely there would be a paper trail back to the supplier (unless they were also involved0. I think it is very unlikely to have been removed after installation. Surely the cost to remove and replace it with wood, would negate any monetary benefit.

Would he have had much to gain by allowing a substitution? Is there that much of a price difference between steel and timber structures?

cheers

RE: Engineer Arrested

There is now.  We had to wait an extra two months to move into our new building in 2005, because our contractor couldn't get the steel studs needed to put up office walls because the supply was almost all consumed by China's booming economy and infrastructure.

Likewise, there's chronic reports of people stealing copper wire out of occupied and abandoned buildings.

TTFN

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RE: Engineer Arrested

Where were the NYC building inspectors when the building was under construction?

Why aren't they blaming the contractor from deviating from the plans?

Is Vargas the engineer of record for the structure or was he an employee of the building owner working as a "building engineer" (a euphemism for the head maintenance guy)?

RE: Engineer Arrested

I was doing some more reading on this, and it is just pretty confused.

Mr. Vargas does appear to be a licensed engineer.  But various articles describe him as a building engineer, a structural engineer, and a contractor.  It is stated that he put the beams in, etc., but then also that he didn't inspect them, so it's really confused as to what his involvement actually was.

Apparently, for several years, NY City has allowed engineers and architects to certify buildings without the city getting involved.

RE: Engineer Arrested

Oh, one example of the confusion. "There wasn't one ounce of steel in the entire building, needless to say the roof," is a quote from the article above.  But then I found another article that said the firefighters were buried under "hundreds of pounds of steel beams".

RE: Engineer Arrested

"I'm glad I gave up my New York License..."

"Maybe i will stop looking for jobs in NYC..."


"Where were the NYC building inspectors when the building was under construction?"

There's no witch hunt against engineers going in NY; just take a look at the NYS Education Department's website for disciplinary action.

This indictment could be politics; tragically two men died. Politicians are always looking to for publicity when tragedy strikes.  There is so much construction going on in the city, and with it a sharp increase in construction accidents and deaths in NYC in the past year. The Building Department seems to be AWOL.

Last August there was a fire in the Deutsche Bank Building (the old Banker's Trust Building), across from the World Trade Center site, which is being demolished. Two firemen died. The fire is believed to have been caused by smoking in a non-smoking area. The standpipe system was not operational - it was supposed to be; if it were working maybe they'd still be here. Meanwhile, the CM - Bovis Lend Lease - got a pass. They knew what was going on. I'm sure they used some political clout. There were supposed to be safety inspectors on the job at all times - they were being paid to provide this service. Sure, they were fined by OSHA but they'll probably appeal the fine down to nothing.

RE: Engineer Arrested

Okay this was a grand jury, so, A. He has been convicted of nothing. B. He did not have an attorney with him. C. The proceedings are not designed to determine the facts, only to determine if there is sufficent evidence to warrant a trial to determine the facts.
Although neither article really says, it sounds like Mr. Vargas was the special inspector, which are hired by the owner in liue of building inspectors. Hopefully there is a logical explination for this.

RE: Engineer Arrested

Sure there is:

Some one f***ed up real bad >_<
people died..

RE: Engineer Arrested

1.  Never believe anything you read in the newspapers.

2.  Never talk to the police, FBI or any law enforcement agent with out your lawyer being present.

3.  If in doubt take the 5th.

With out factual accurate information it is hard to judge the engineer.  I am only 55, but I can't even remember which jobs I worked on a year ago.  It would not surprise me at all if some one in their mid-eighties had trouble remembering what they did on a job 6 years ago.

Again with out accurately knowing the facts it is hard to express an opinion.

Personally I have a hard time with the federal goverment or other agencies charging people with lying under oath.  If they are guilty of a crime then they should be charged with that crime; and the goverment should prove their case.

Unfortunaly you almost never can win when you fight the government.  In the past most lumber trade associations also offered grading services.  The at some point in the past the Federal goverment sued all the major lumber trade associations for antitrust.  All the associations except for the Western Wood Products Association lost their cases and were forced to seperate their grading services from their trade association services.

WWPA, however, did not win their case.  The goverment agreed to drop their case, but required WWPA to sign a consent decree agreeing not to engage in any of the illegal activities that the goverment thought they had engaged in.  

 

RE: Engineer Arrested

I shouldn't bring it up here, but I can't resist pointing out the comments on the news article bridgebuster just posted.  The dead worker has a Spanish surname (so does the engineer), and immediately people jump in with "stupid illegal immigrant got hisself kilt".  Makes me so proud...

Hg

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RE: Engineer Arrested

I noticed buried down in that article,
"The department penalized him after a new special enforcement team found he was allowing his business partner to use Sanchez's professional stamp to submit applications. His partner surrendered his privileges in 2002."

Wow.

I googled Jose Vargas a day or two ago and news reports were that he had pled innocent, not a lot else on the case yet.

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