5 times faster
5 times faster
(OP)
This is something that really annoys me, I dont know why but it does.
You hear many advertisements use terms such as this when they mean 5 times as fast.
Heres my logic:
25% faster means 1.25 times as fast, so by the same logic 5 times faster should mean 6 times as fast.
I have read some engeers posting statements like this and the potential ambiguity could lead to a problem.
Anyone else got an issue with/like this?
You hear many advertisements use terms such as this when they mean 5 times as fast.
Heres my logic:
25% faster means 1.25 times as fast, so by the same logic 5 times faster should mean 6 times as fast.
I have read some engeers posting statements like this and the potential ambiguity could lead to a problem.
Anyone else got an issue with/like this?





RE: 5 times faster
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
You never know who's making the statement and what they really mean. It could be some marketing schmuck who wouldn't be able to understand the difference in the math if you helped them count with their digits or it could be an engineering type who is saying exactly what they mean.
If the numbers really matter, use them. If you simply need to make a generalization, a statement like "5X faster" might be sufficient. As with all writing, you've got to know your audience.
RE: 5 times faster
For example, I recently heard statistics that the most common colours of cars are yellow and white.
White is the most common colour anyhow, and yellow is most often seen on sports cars.
There was no mention as to if the data was per capita or total.
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
25% faster means 25% on top of the original 100%.
5 X faster means you multiply the original value by 5.
5X faster is a 400% increase.
500% faster is not the same as 5X as fast.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
Five times as fast, then, means five times the original speed.
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: 5 times faster
"The program is faster by a factor of 2. It takes half the original time to run."
- Steve
RE: 5 times faster
Multiply the original value by 5.
However, 500% as fast is not the same as 500% faster.
500% as fast = multiply 100% by 5 = 500%
500% faster = add 500% to the original 100% = 600%
I think this is what HgTX was addressing.
Is there the same confusion if you say half as fast or 50% as fast or 50% slower?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
I think this is why:
500% faster can be seen as either an addition of 500% to the original 100% or a multiplier; hence the confusion (and why percentages should be avoided in such cases).
On the other hand, when you say 5 *times* faster, you're multiplying. No question about it.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: 5 times faster
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
I'm usually one of the denser posters here on Eng Tips.
If I think I get it/don't see the confusion then this means I must actually be really confused or deluded and just don't realize it
Reminds me of the confusion between factor of safety and reserve factor when working on US/UK Aerospace/Defense.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
I just think this is bad english that has been used for so long now that we dont see the problem with it. Similar to "I didnt do nothing.."
RE: 5 times faster
"This is as fast as that" - OK
"This is 5 times as fast" - Makes no sense. You wouldn't say "this is 5 times as big"
"This is 5 times faster" - OK
RE: 5 times faster
If original speed was 50 mph then 'twice as fast' is surely 100 mph. What other interpretation am I missing?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
Twice as fast is understandable but you wouldn't describe something that is the same speed as something else "as once as fast". So maybe grammatically it's not exactly correct.
Thrice as fast is OK too
Dunno what they use for four times.
RE: 5 times faster
5 times as fast is the correct english,
5 times faster is incorrect (for reasons stated above)
5mph faster would be okay.
faster refers to the difference between the two, as fast refers to the ratio.
I would apply this rule universally (percentages, 1,2,3,...infinity) None of this it is okay for... it is not okay for...
Another thing to fix when I reach world dictatorship.
RE: 5 times faster
"faster refers to the difference between the two, as fast refers to the ratio."
What?? The word "faster" just means "faster". 500 mph is faster than 5 mph. 6 mph is also faster than 5 mph. There is nothing inherent about the word "faster" that means we have to be thinking in terms of additive rather than multiplicative differences; it just means there *is* a difference.
There is a usage difference here. There are two constructions under discussion: "X times more" and "X times as". Neither is grammatically incorrect. Both are idiomatic. Probably neither should be used in an extremely technical context.
http
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: 5 times faster
two times faster, 1+2
three times faster, 1+3
1 times as fast as the original, 1*1
2 times as fast as the original, 1*2
3 times as fast as the original, 1*3
Forever Young
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
- Steve
RE: 5 times faster
But is the times multiplication of the original or multiplication of the difference.
Somptingguy,
Yes they gave one person a huge discount in order to claim that 73%.
Snowfire,
That is 100% what I think.
RE: 5 times faster
There's not grammarical difference between saying:
"5 times faster" and "much faster". In both cases, there is a quantity, though in the first case there is an exact quantity and in the second case there is an inexact quantity. It is simply a forumla stated in english verbage.
The only thing "as" adds is preposition (context of the relation between the two objects). There's no literal different between "5 times as fast" and "5 times faster". They both mean object2speed = 5 * object1speed. The nonliteral difference is that the second statement implied the object is moving faster than the other object; and the first statement is explicit.
500% faster means 6 times faster. %'s are derived numbers, so its components have to be taken into account. 500% as fast, I don't think this makes sense, but let me think about. Anyone else?
1 times faster an incorrect statement. You cannot be 1 times faster. You can be 1 times as fast. It doesn't work because you aren't moving faster if you are moving at 1 times the speed. 1 = 1 not 1 > 1
2 times faster is just that, twice as fast or two times as fast. There's no argument here, I hope, about this.
csd72, I think you are just confused by incorrect use of these terms. They are forumlae stated in english terms. I'll state another example. Another miss used term is 360deg turn (when 180deg turn is what is meant).
1 times as fast means 1*1 = 1
1 times faster means 1*1 = but implies a > b, which is illegical
2 times as fast means 2*1 = 2
2 times faster means 2*1= 2 and implies that a > b (which is already a given based on the formula itself)
3 times as fast means 3*1 = 3
3 times faster means 3*1 = 3 and implies that a > b
Because percents are more complex, I'll leave that to someone else or come back to this later.
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: 5 times faster
I think we are divided on the original issue, a few agree with me and a few disagreee. In the end it is probably just a matter of opinion.
But one thing that still gets me from the opposing arguement is your willingness to apply one rule to the percentage and a different rule to the number even though numerically they are the same thing. I can see no logic in that, but that is just my personal opinion.
RE: 5 times faster
Also, as someone pointed out, percentages are inherently relational. 5 is 5. 500% is 5, but of necessity seen in relationship to something else. They're not *exactly* the same unless you're plugging them into a formula, rather than using them in a sentence, where all kinds of assumptions and expectations kick in.
The overall moral of the story is if you really mean to convey something technical, just give the original speed and the new speed and let your intelligent audience work it out. For advertising, don't sweat the small distinctions of 5x vs. 6x. You can't rely on grammar (or, rather, your individual grammatical prejudices, shared with some but not others) to take care of this for you.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: 5 times faster
Inherently when you start talking percentages you imply different rules.
With a percent you're never talking absolute. You set up some figure/value as 100% and then show other figures variation from it in proportion to that figure.
Percentages do cause confusion, I just don't see that 5X or 1/2 off ect cause the same confusion.
Like I said though, it's probably my failure to see some bigger picture issue.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
RE:
"CSD, we're not applying different rules as such.
Inherently when you start talking percentages you imply different rules."
There is a contradiction in there somewhere!
"With a percent you're never talking absolute."
what????
Inflation is called up as 4% e.t.c. that is 4% more than it was last year (it is not called up as 104% as your logic would suggest).
No debating team captain badge for you :).
RE: 5 times faster
Thanks CSD, I think I've worked out the bigger issue.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
Two corrections with your statement csd72:
1) You just said has already been spoken by those who you disagree with.
2) It's your logic that is suggesting the opposite of your own statement, not KENAT's.
This really isn't even a matter of opinion at all.
A percentage is the ratio of the whole that is compared to the whole. The whole being 100% (or in old times "100 per cent" meaning in verbage "how many of a 100 hundred components").
I recommend checking out the wiki article. It is actually pretty well explained there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent
Also, check out the multiplication article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication
Enjoy.
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: 5 times faster
No, I just disagree with the use of one rule for percentages and a different rule for numbers. It just seems illogical.
RE: 5 times faster
Unless you're plugging them into an Excel spreadsheet, they are different. Live with it.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: 5 times faster
10% bigger X+X*10%=1.1X
20% bigger X+X*20%=1.2X
50% bigger X+X*50%=1.5X
100% bigger X+X*100%=2X
2 times bigger X+X*2=3X
2 times as big X*2= 2X
2 times bigger <> 2 times as big
2 times as big as the other one X*2=2X
3 times as big as the other one X*3=3X
bigger than ---- (er) '+' or '-'
I can run 5Km in 20 minutes, you can run 5Km in 15 minutes, you are 5 minutes faster than I am. 20 - 15 =5.
Forever Young
RE: 5 times faster
Careful - illiterate people don't understand the word 'niggardly'. It can get you into a heap of trouble with some folks.
RE: 5 times faster
It actually makes sense if you have ever been beyond what you thought was your limit. 110% of your percieved limit is actually quite achievable, maybe they are wiser about these things than you give them credit for.
RE: 5 times faster
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: 5 times faster
I think it is a very good post.
And I think we are talking about different things.
People can go their way, I will go my way.
If someone tell me that is 0.5 times bigger, I believe it is 1.5*X.
If someone tell me it is 2 times bigger, I will ask him do you mean mutiply by 2, or do you really mean X + 2 times.
When people say two times bigger I have to be careful.
That is my experience from my life.
Forever Young
RE: 5 times faster
The cyclist is 5 times slower than the car.
Ugh.
Perfectly correct posts above are criticized by people offering incorrect opinions as facts. I would contribute normally, but I am not on this bulletin board to join in a futile argument!
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
As MintJulep said early on
The people on the other side seem to be suggesting that different rules apply for computing 25% faster and 500% faster.
Maybe you know what you mean when you say 500% faster, but that doesn't make it unambiguous.
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: 5 times faster
My apologies for attempting to represent what anyone said.
The bottom line, imo, there is a lot of ambiguity if you say 5 times faster or 500% faster. Only five times as fast is unambiguous to my ears.
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
RE: 5 times faster
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
Our (UK) weather forecasters sometimes report that the temperature has 'doubled' from 10C to 20C. I haven't heard them trying to cope with the same incremental increase from minus 5C to plus 5C. Has the temperature gone up by a factor of minus 1?
But it works just fine for Kelvins!
RE: 5 times faster
- Steve
RE: 5 times faster
He is 1 minute per km quicker and 5 km per hour faster.
5 minutes is a measure of time and the word 'fast' refers to speed.
If you shout your kids to come in and eat, the one that gets there quickest might not have been the fastest - for example he may have been the closest to you and maybe moved quite slowly.
Sorry if that is a bit deep for those of you still struggling with percentages and multiplication.
RE: 5 times faster
V
RE: 5 times faster
"..with the greatly increased number of home foreclosures the case load is one hundred per cent of what it once was..."
Hmmm, exactly the same, eh?
RE: 5 times faster
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: 5 times faster
"1000% faster"
and
"10 times the speed you read now"
in the same ad. I'm with fcsuper on this one; I don't think those agree.
If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS
RE: 5 times faster
:)
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
25% faster = adding 25% of the original speed.
500% faster should mean adding 500% of the original speed, resulting in 6 x faster.
RE: 5 times faster
I supposed using the word "beyond" rather than "over" might have helped, but maybe not.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: 5 times faster
Most of us know already. I think some may be used to hearing the terms in a particular way and never thought about it til now, but still prefer their particular way. However, it is colliquial and doesn't make much sense when applied to directly to the numbers its supposed to represent. Just because something can be said in English terms doesn't mean it is a logical statement. "One times faster" is an illogical statement. I think trying to find logic in it is fruitless and causes confusion (as can be seen by this thread).
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: 5 times faster
LOL
And 6 times faster is also 7 times faster is it?
I think some lessons in counting to ten are required here.
RE: 5 times faster
You're travelling at 10 mph.
You decide to go 50% faster.
What is your new speed?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
Maybe its your english and not our mathematics?
RE: 5 times faster
Or something like that, perhaps there should be a whome in there somewhere.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
Maybe its your english and not our mathematics?
No. Five times faster cannot mean six times faster can it?
RE: 5 times faster
As fcsuper said, there are bound to be regional/national differences in the method the english is translated into a mathematics.
RE: 5 times faster
Im the idiot for starting this crazy post.
crystalclear,
The correct english would be
5 times faster means 6 times as fast.
Just as you would say "X earns twice as much as Y."
We have all explained our points of view, just look at the posts above.
RE: 5 times faster
The correct english would be
5 times faster means 6 times as fast.
The correct maths would be
5 times faster means 5 times as fast.
(And yes, we say 'maths' where I come from)
RE: 5 times faster
"Times" = "multiply by". One is used for the other interchangeably in meaning for the other. There's no magical 1 + in this, other than using english to make illogical statements.
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
When the percentage is less than 100%, nobody has any problems: 30% fastER means 130% of the original speed (ie, original speed = 100% plus the 30% increase). However, when you start to say 200% fastER, people don't understand that this must mean 3 x the speed (ie, 100% original plus the 200% increase). If you want to mean DOUBLE the speed, you need to say 200% AS FAST, not 'faster'.
When the change is more than 100%, people need to use different terminology. ie, 30% faster would be an umambiguous term, but for larger numbers, it would be more clear to say 3 times as fast, or 3.5 times as fast.
RE: 5 times faster
I think it is important to realise the potential for misunderstanding if you use terms such as 5 times faster. While you might only see one way of interpreting that phrase, this forum has proved that there are definately well educated people out there that are bound to interpret it differently.
Thanks everyone for the lively debate.
RE: 5 times faster
Here's an example to look at:
http://www
RE: 5 times faster
I am glad someone else revisited this one as I didnt want to be the one.
I was thinking about the above argument the other day (yes I was really bored at the time waiting for a train).
We have been discussing the language on this but maybe the proof is in mathematics insead.
Thinking of 5 times tables:
5 times 1 =1
5 times 2 = 10
.....
But
5 times faster = ????
Thinking of it this way it doesnt make sense as you have to have 5 times something but the word 'faster' indicates something that is not quantifiable.
Substitute the words 'as fast' and you have a definate quantity that you can multiply.
Thus
'5 times as fast'
Is really the correct way to say it.
RE: 5 times faster
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
For the "least qualified checker (I'll) ever meet", you seem to catch a fair amount. I've noticed your attention to detail in other threads too. Do you keep print-outs of threads with corrections in your portfolio? ;)
- MechEng2005
RE: 5 times faster
Nice link. It explains the issue well.
- Steve
RE: 5 times faster
I find it useful in fine tuning my pedantry as a checker.
If only I applied the same standard to my own posts
I estimate that this thread is approximately 78 times longer than it needs to be.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
RE: 5 times faster
50% faster - unambiguous (1.5 times the original)
100% faster - unambiguous (twice as fast as the original)
110% faster - can be interpreted as 1.1 times or 2.1 times.
I think the latter is correct, but obviously views between intelligent folks in this thread differ.
So why don't we agree not to use percentages over 100 and reject or query any reference that isn't crystal clear?
RE: 5 times faster
Here we struggled so hard to remove heavy weight, when I should have focused on adding 'lighter' weight.
Just more illustration of our math and sicence totally illiterate culture. And the more dumbing down we do.....
k
RE: 5 times faster
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
Think of a Trie Cassyn with phosphorus coated feet.
- Steve
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
All this comes down to what I said above - 3 times what? lighter.
What is wrong with saying one third as heavy, or cant advertising execs understand fractions?
RE: 5 times faster
"Balance Piston to Balance piston bushing clearance: .0046"-.0065"
When clearances exceed those listed above by 150% of the maximum listed, changing of the parts should be considered, especially if the unit is in critical service"
At what point do you think you should consider changing the parts?
RE: 5 times faster
"At what point do you think you should consider changing the parts?"
Straight away, replace with parts from a supplier whose documentation makes sense
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
'exceed...by' 150% would mean that the change out should be when the clearances are 250% of the original.
The sentence should read 'when clearances reach 150% (or 250%) of these maximums'; that would make it clear what was meant.
RE: 5 times faster
I never said to remove the word exceed, just the words after it. It would then read
"...When clearances exceed 150% of the maximum listed,..."
RE: 5 times faster
Who knows what the original author meant, and this is a perfect example of something that would have been given a 0 mark when I was in University.
RE: 5 times faster
'change the parts when the clearance exceeds 0.0098" (or 0.0163")'.
RE: 5 times faster
I agree with your last post.
apsix,
I think this was probably a generic specification with fillin the gaps
RE: 5 times faster
The math is exact!! I'm not sure why anyone would debate what a percent means or what "times" means or what faster or bigger means.
The confusion is in the "verbal" or "written" communication using the English language. The context in which a statment is made can change the meaning of the statement or the "assumed" meaning of the statement. The original posters example clearly shows that the confusion is merely due to the sloppy use of language to describe the magnitude of certain things.
If you ever find a math book using language similar to the original example... throw it away. It's garbage.
Dan
RE: 5 times faster
This post has gone on for 5 times as long as it should have!
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
RE: 5 times faster
Never heard back...
Regards,
Mike