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Murali27 (Structural) (OP)
7 Feb 08 8:47
In one of our job, the contractor wants to construct the walls/columns without kicker (75mm).

It gets me question that the pros and cons of kicker / kickerless method of construction

Cheers
countervail (Structural)
7 Feb 08 8:51
Kickerless seams fine to me but edge columns should I think have them as its safer (helps locate the columns shutter so it cant slide of an edge as it were).
msquared48 (Structural)
7 Feb 08 12:01
If you omit kickers at certain locations where you have a knuckle joint condition in the wall, it creates structural instability.

Therefore, if you chose to go along with the contractor, you will have to maintain the stability of the wall another way.  Good luck.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

Helpful Member!  civilperson (Structural)
7 Feb 08 16:05
What is meant by "kicker"?
Helpful Member!  civeng80 (Structural)
7 Feb 08 16:24
I think most contractors try and avoid kickers and I do sympathize with them.  There is alot of fiddly work in making them.  Mike what is a knuckle joint?  First time Ive come across this term.  I always thought kicker or kickerless is structurally the same.

Cheers
hokie66 (Structural)
7 Feb 08 16:43
I'm with civilperson.  Would appreciate if someone would explain "kicker" to him and "kickerless" to me.
civeng80 (Structural)
7 Feb 08 21:22
A kicker is a starter on a wall(from the footing) about 50mm high so that shuttering (formwork) may be started for the vertical placement of concrete.  Its more a construction feature than a design feature hence my comment above.

Cheers
msquared48 (Structural)
7 Feb 08 22:31
A "kicker" is a term for a diagonal brace to a stud wall (pony wall more than likely), where the stud wall is framed above a concrete wall.  The concrete wall retains earth and does not have lateral support via a floor diaphragm at the top.  This kicker serves to transfer the lateral pressure from the soil to the floor diaphragm above. The kicker does not have to frame to the top of the concrete, but may intersect the studwall at a position between the top of the concrete wall and floor diaphragm.

The "Knuckle joint" I refer to is the joint(at the sill plate) between the top of the concrete wall and the pony wall.  This joint has no fixity to resist the soil load, so it is treated as a pinned joint.  This condition is not critical for yielding walls, but can be critical for non-yielding, or basement walls that are not full height.  That is why I refer to the condition as a "Knuckle Joint".  

Sorry if I mislead anyone here.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

hokie66 (Structural)
7 Feb 08 22:43
Just as I thought, the word can mean different things to different people.  But now that I think about it, I have hear the starter hob called a "kicker".  Just didn't remember, which is not surprising.
civeng80 (Structural)
7 Feb 08 23:30
Thanks Mike

Maybe I got my terminology wrong.  My apology if I misled, I was thinking of what we construction people call kickers or starters and this is different to what you have explained.

Cheers
Murali27 (Structural) (OP)
8 Feb 08 8:54
Thanks for all your input.

Though this is not a design feature, it would be helpful in construction.

Cheers
Ussuri (Civil/Environmental)
8 Feb 08 9:05
To me a 'kicker' is a short 50/75mm bottom bit of the wall that is poured with the slab.  It serves to provide a vertical face to set the formwork against.  I think this is something different to the 'kicker' described by msquared48.  Although I have never heard the term 'pony wall'

They are fiddly because the shuttering joiners have to 'hang' the shutters for the kickers above the base slab.  It takes time and increases costs.

Contractors like kickerless as it is simpler.  There is nothing wrong with when done properly, but depending on how the top of the slab was finished they can be more prone to leaking than kicker constructtion.  
countervail (Structural)
8 Feb 08 9:13
My comment relates to a 50mm type column starter kicker, I agree that whether it is there or not, it doesn’t have any significant structural effect on the column.
csd72 (Structural)
8 Feb 08 9:18
Where I come from, a kicker is the plate that runs around the edge of a walkway. Amazing how the same word can be used for many things.
Ussuri (Civil/Environmental)
8 Feb 08 10:55
csd72, that would be a kick plate.
csd72 (Structural)
8 Feb 08 12:18
I have also heard it called that, also being called a toe kick. I know three names for everything, I just dont always remember which one to use.
civeng80 (Structural)
8 Feb 08 16:26
For hydraulic pits and water retaining structures kickers are essential for cleaning etc.  But for building works they are optional.

Cheers !
8101986 (Structural)
17 Jul 08 18:35
i think it  can be done integral with  column in its green state.
oneintheeye (Structural)
18 Jul 08 7:42
kicker to us is short vertical concrere cast with slab
kicker or kick plate is on walkways
Dont know what the hell a pony wall is!
parrot77 (Structural)
18 Jul 08 8:01
A pony wall is a wall that you sit on and ride around the building.. very partial to sugar lumps

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