Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
(OP)
Over the years I have heard some interesting arguments about what falls under the practice of engineering and what does not. I've know non-registered engineers who offered design services. They always argued that they were not offering engineering services, just providing designs. I always believed when an engineer provided a design they were practicing engineering.
Today you here a lot about "Value Engineering". In some cases that service is being offered by registered engineers and in other cases by non-emgimeers. Since it appears in most states that you can be a computer engineer with out being registered maybe the same thing applies to "Value Engineers"
Today you here a lot about "Value Engineering". In some cases that service is being offered by registered engineers and in other cases by non-emgimeers. Since it appears in most states that you can be a computer engineer with out being registered maybe the same thing applies to "Value Engineers"






RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
So, in answer to your question, no, but it helps.
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
now, how one deals with the terminology certified value engineer and is not an engineer, well that's what most state boards of licensing chase after....
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RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
You could propose an alternative design, but could you stand by the validity of your design and issue signed and sealed calculations - no. This could be a problem.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
If you mean could I personally stand by the validity of my design and issue signed and sealed calculations, the answer is yes for the states that I am registered as a P.E.
My involvement with "Value Engineering" usually comes after the fact. I will get a system that has been changed, through value engineering, from the orginal design. My job then is to actually do the design. Often times I end up going back to who ever did the value engineering and asking them how in the world did they expect their alternate design to work.
I deal with a lot of cases where people down size glulam beams because they were oversized to begin with. However often when I try to detail the connections I deal with problems that would not have existed with the orginal deeper beams.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
I am not a lawyer but I do know that in the state of Arizona, that if a firm or individual (by the way, I have never even heard of value engineers, certified or otherwise) makes any changes or revisions to a registrants construction documents he or she must not only be duly registered but must & shall, under the law also be fully liable for said changes or revisions.
Best regards, registeredpe in AZ,
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
I just retrieved my quarterly newsletter from my mailbox from the Arizona State Board of Technical Registration and under their mission statement it reads,"The purpose of this agency is to protect the public by setting appropriate registration qualifications and enforcing state statutes relating to the practice of all Board-regulated professions and occupations.
Any person who does any of the following is acting in violation of the law and is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor:
1. Practices, offers to practice or by any implication holds himself out as qualified to practice any Board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not registered or certified as provided by this chapter.
2.Advertises or displays any card, sign or other device that may indicate to the public that the person is certified or registered or is fully qualified to practice any Board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not registered or certified as provided by this chapter.
3.Uses "certified", "professional certified", "professional", "registered", "registered professional" or "professional registered" in conjunction with any Board regulated profession or occupation if the person is not certified or registered as provided by this chapter.
So it is my humble opinion that if a "value engineer" performs any work for the public(at least in AZ)he or she must be duly registered.
For additional Info. go to www.azbtr.gov
Thanks again, registeredpe in AZ
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
The widespread use of the word "engineer" is the problem. At least in Australia we don't call a train driver an engineer.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
That is exactly what I mean, I did not intend to question your capability. If you were in their situation and you didnt have a PE, then your suggestions would hold no weight.
But if you are a PE but not in that state, then I would think you could propose alternate designs that the original engineer would have to engineer.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
Ok, I understand the idea, you were trying to convey. If some one provides "Value Engineering" by proposing an alternate strutural system the value of their service is dependent on their qualifications. If they are a PE qualified to practice structural engineer then the value of the service they provide is probably going to be fairly high.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
csd72, it is against the law to provide structural engineering services in a state that an engineer is not registered in (at least in the good ol' U.S.A).
Additionally, it would be nice to know what part of the globe posters reside in to get a feel for their question/comments.
Best regards, registeredpe in AZ
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
But part of the question is is value engineering engineering. As many have said the final design of the revised scheme is usually carried out by the original engineer, so the 'value engineer' is usually there for a cost efficiency prospect only. PE laws dont necesarily apply.
I am in NY, previously residing in Australia and the UK.
RARSWC,
I meant more along the lines of competency and understanding of the implications of the changes. If a carpenter proposed changes to the structural frame then no one would listen to him because he obviously doesnt know what he is talking about.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
I hope you were being sarcastic with that last comment. I've met several carpenters who knew alot more about structural design and buildability than alot of newly minted PEs (or SEs). They may not know the difference between ASD and LFRD or have any letters after their name, but that doesn't make them incompetent. If I were building an engineered structure, I'd definitely ask for my carpenter's input before I approved a design - I've seen way too many engineers try to get cute or just have no idea how their design would actually be built to not get some input from the man in charge of erecting it. In that sense, a carpenter can be a great "value engineer".
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
Then it is my humble opinion that you have not met nearly enough carpenters, I would say.
Best regards,registeredpe in AZ
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
Now, a second method of value engineering is also used here in construction contracts. It is much more informal. A contractor may make a "value engineering change proposal (VECP)" to the owner. He will do this to lower the cost, speed up the construction or make his job easier and hopefully save some money for himself and the owner in the process. The owner is then bound by the contract to review the VECP and possibly issue a change order to the contractor to make the change. The review of this VECP (from an engineering standpoint) and any modifications to the plans again should be done by either the original designer or by another engineer.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
Anyway, I agree that some carpenters do have valid opinions on things to do with wood construction, but in my experience most dont. I always listen to the guy on site and if feasible, I will follow their requests.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
csd72, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. My post was supposed to be directed to the post made by patbethea(mechanical). I agree with you on this and to further expound on the topic, it is not just limited to carpenters.
Best regards,registeredpe in AZ
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
I posted this thread after reading another post about sealing drawings. I didn't add this to that post because this seems to be more of a seperate topic.
May be I should have expanded my post to include other areas where people are close to the boundary between offering engineering services and not.
What I was looking for were some opinions on what a person can or can not do if they are not registered. Again it can vary from state to state.
I do some "engineering" for people in states where I am not registered. However I would not consider what I do as offering engineering services for several reasons.
First of all I never represent may self as being registered in that state. Seccond of all I never charge a fee for what I do nor do I ever solicit work.
Most of what I do would be preliminary sizing of glulam arches, beams or trusses. I don't provided calculations and I never say that what I propose would work. In general what I would say is that you probably need an 8 3/4" glulam between 30" to 36" deep.
On projects where the company, I work for is supply the glulam material I will occasionally sumbit calculations to an engineer firm in a state that I am not registered in. However the calculations are for approval by the EOR and this is only done when the specification do not require the work to be done by a PE registered in that state.
It is rare, however, where specifications do not require the work to be done by or under the direct supervision of a PE. Also the above rarely comes up because a large percent of projects I work on are in Iowa or Minnesota where I am registered, or in Wisconsin where another engineer I work with is registered.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
These suggestions can be made by ANYONE but will be reviewed by the design professionals before implementation or rejection. The term value engineering should be replaced by a more approprite name.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
a star for you, short and concise
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
As far as "value engineering" in concerned, that's a generic term for cost-evaluation and cost-cutting, which do not always add "value" and "engineering" makes it sound more important to the owner/client. The VE recommendations are generally made by the estimators and construction management people who want to save the owner $$ and/or pad their own bottom line. I gave the owner/client what they asked for and when the owner sides with the estimator/construction manager, it costs me $$ because I have to redesign something for free. That's my opinion anyway.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
The changes should be reviewed by the architect and structural engineer of record and they sign off.
The changes are an addition to the original design and the professionals should be remunerated for the extra work. The cost/benefit analysis should include for additional design work. The owner/contract documents may provide a reward for these savings.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
I live and work in the northeast USA.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
That situation stinks. Just goes to show that we have to cover our ass all the way.
I hope you are not going to do work for them again.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
A person doesn't have to be PE to recommend VE items, but a PE must evaluate the effects of the VE on the overall structural system.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
BTW--the PE laws were enacted to protect the public, so that customers shouldn't have to be savvy enough, or double check everything an engineer tells them, to trust the work of someone calling herself an 'engineer.' I would think it's unfair to expect the customer would be savvy enough to catch problems. With the degree of specialization these days, I am not sure I would catch things myself--I do a lot of structural analysis, on airplanes, but if someone told me the gusset on that bridge over there was thick enough, I can only assume the engineer who designed it knew what he was doing, and that the gusset was indeed thick enough.
May I ask about the phrase 'design services'? I have seen the phrase, not really familiar with the specifics. Is this any more than just CAD drawing services? If it isn't more, than I would think you wouldn't even need an engineering degree to sell those services. But if it is more, such as supplying estimates of fatigue life, than doesn't the engineering registration law apply?
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
Even for projects that typically don't have 'sealed' documents, such as widgets and thingamajigs, products that are manufactured, if you are designed, doing more than drawing, in Missouri you have to have a PE because you are offering your services as an engineer. Of course that doesn't mean the law is enforced, as I said before.
RE: Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering"
In Oklahoma, anyone can design things like machine parts and electronics without a PE license, but cannot call themselves an engineer.