Expired License
Expired License
(OP)
I am the EOR for a project in which we utilized a fiberglass floor system. As a somewhat proprietary system, I required calculations and drawings for this system to be submitted that were signed and sealed by a registered PE. When I received the submission, I discovered that the PE's license expired 8 years ago. We subsequently recieved drawings signed and sealed by another engineer (currently registered) in addition to the previous seal.
I am preparing to file a complaint with our state licensing board, but my boss has indicated that he thought I should I should just let the matter drop, since we did receive drawings sealed by a currently registered PE.
What are your thoughts?
I am preparing to file a complaint with our state licensing board, but my boss has indicated that he thought I should I should just let the matter drop, since we did receive drawings sealed by a currently registered PE.
What are your thoughts?





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EJL
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Tell, and tell them now, else you might be held responsible sometime in the future.
Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com
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My question is, at the risk of sounding sarcastic (or worse), why did you even think this was a question? Out of the no-brainer ethical delimas we face as engineers, this one is clear cut.
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
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In my mind, this is a no-brainer. I guess my bigger dillema is what my future is in working for a company that can't or won't see the ethical obligations of PE's. Maybe I was looking for the outside chance that someone, somewhere could come up with a reason to support my boss's poistion that I was missing.
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The thing about ethics is that it does require someone to rock the boat at times.
And in the end - doing what is right usually pays as it will allow you maintain clients.
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Recently - I submitted a Florida project with just an old wet seal - not embossed - because my embosser had just broken and I was getting a new one. My luck - the EOR on the other side was on the Flordia Board. What are the ODDS??? He called me to remind me about the FL regs. I explained my predicament and he understood. Followed up w/ embossed copies.
Even if a board says they do not accept anonymous complaints - most actually will do a follow up esp if this is something as simple as looking up a license.
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There is really nothing supporting your bosses position, other than the dilemma of possibly the other engineer being his personal, long-time friend. That can be difficult. I am not suggesting that it is an excuse to ignore the impropriety in any sense of the word. Friendship just makes the obvious decision harder to implement.
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
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The impression is the first, but if the second, then there may be an honest story.
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The sub updated the drawings with a current seal on his own. It was at that point I discovered the first license was expired. An asssociate from one of our branch offices called the engineer in question, and he said the engineer in question "acted dumb about it".....
As MiketheEngineer said, if it was just a few days, or even weeks, I could see something got missed accidently. But 8 years is egregious.
Thank you for your responses. The information has been sent to our State Board.
JKW
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The surprising thing about it was that the firm he worked for at that time had all there engineers check their licenses. Three or four other people in the firm also had similair problems.
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A call to the State Board will clear-up if his license is current.
One is a minor screw-up, the other I agree is flat-out-wrong.
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Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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"The sub updated the drawings with another engineer's current seal on his own."
As of today, The Board's website still show's his registration expired in 1999.
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Don't let management dictate your profession
-
Aercoustics.com
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Ken
Ken
KE5DFR
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Just make a phone call to your state licensing board... and if you are able to speak to someone who speaks proper English... then you've had better luck than me at communicating with the state board...
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As a mech engr, I never had to use my PE stamp or provide documentation of my license except for a condition of employment; just once. I had to provide a copy of my degree, too.
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I don't know where you are "signing" your communications from, but in Pennsylvania you don't have to "seal" a drawing to be violating the state law.
1) It is unlawful to practice engineering unless he is licensed and registered as a professional engeineer.
2) A person shall be construed to practice engineering if they verbally claim, sign, advertise, or in any other way represents himself to be an engineer.
This is from the Pennsylvania Engineer, Land Surveyor and Geologist Registration Law. I would bet that whatever state you are in has similar language.
So I'm not sure what the intent of your post is. Is it to show everyone that you are above the law? Or is it to show everyone that you are getting away with breaking it?
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If I ever HAVE to sign a letter using PE after my name and I am NOT registered in that state - then I add something like "Registered in STATE"
Some industrial customers care less that you are registered in their state - just that you are registered somewhere. Federal OSHA seems to be this way in many areas....CAL-OSHA is another story.
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so there is no confusion as to where I am registered.
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970
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Also
The industrial exemption allows non-licensed engineers to do work for their companies that would otherwise require a license. It's unclear from the PE act what those engineers, like me, are allowed to use on our business cards.
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What isn't clear?
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Sorry you confused me. If I understand you correctly, you are saying no one can put "electrical engineer" on their business card unless they are a PE?
Kentucky law state:
322.020 Practice of engineering or land surveying without license prohibited.
(1) Unless licensed as a professional engineer, no person shall:
(a) Engage in the practice of engineering;
(b) Offer to practice engineering; or
(c) Use, assume, or advertise in any way any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is a professional engineer.
(2) Unless licensed as a professional land surveyor, no person shall:
(a) Engage in the practice of land surveying;
(b) Offer to practice land surveying; or
(c) Use, assume, or advertise in any way any title or description tending to convey
the impression that he or she is a professional land surveyor.
I am not sure stating that you are an "electrical engineer" meets this restriction, but then I haven't been a PE for very long either. Thanks in advance for the feedback.
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Since industry employees are legally exemption from needing to be licensed to do the work, why wouldn't they likewise be legally exempt from needing a license to call themselves "electrical engineers?"
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Thank you for your input. My primary objection has been to those who insist on referring to themselves as PE, when they are in fact not registered professional engineers with the state. Your previous post did not present the exception you have now cited, and I am not aware of any such exception in Pennsylvania.
But that exception is consistent with the differing opinions that I have heard: Within an organization one can call themselves whatever they want. Outside of the organization, one cannot. IMHO, the exception you cite appears to permit one to list himself as an "electrical engineer" (in CA), as long as it was for that corporation. However in Pennsylvania, unless someone can cite a similar exception, the registration law specifically says one cannot do that.
This is paraphrased, but it expresses the PA act:
"A person shall be construed to practice or to offer to practice engineering . . . who, by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or any other way represents himself to be an engineer, . . . or through the use of some other title implies that he is an engineer."
IMHO, Pennsylvania law prohibits the title of "Electrical Engineer" to be used, unless one is registered engineer.
Please understand, I am not suggesting that non-registered designers, technicians, engineers, or whatever they may be titled as, are not competent. I certainly know many non-registered individuals who are, in many respects, more knowledgeable and competent than I am. And I know many PE's who, let's say, aren't so much.... But I guess the question may be: what is one's intent in using the term "engineer" in lieu of "technician" or "designer". Is it to deceive the recipient into believing that one is a registered PE?
If I treat a cut hand by spraying some Bactine on it and wrapping it in a bandaid, is it appropriate for me to advertise myself as a "nurse" or "physician". I'm pretty sure I would by facing legal problems if I added "R.N." or "M.D." after my name. Why should the engineering profession not be held to a comparable level of respect?
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Is this the reason for "Engineer-in-Training?" This is an interesting topic and I will have to check with my local state board, but it does raise questions about people I know.
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Our company fall in the exemption and out of about 200 engineers, only maybe 6 are PEs, and most are probably lapsed.
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Since I received my P.E., the only change was to include the P.E. after my name on my business card. I work for the State of Indiana, and most of the other engineers I work with don't have their P.E.'s.
I think most engineers (with and without their P.E.) would agree that if you don't see the P.E. after a name, you would expect that they worked as an engineer, but were not professionally licenced. If they do have "PE" or "P.E." after their name, would believe that person was professionally licenced.
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Heretofore I will sign "..., PE ret"
The connotation of this is past registration, and implied competence by degree and passing the license exam. I am not trying to violate any laws. I am merely conveying the sense of competence.
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In particular, you're using the ONE title that would be most like to get you into trouble, "PE" stands for "Profession Engineer" which requires a current license, see my excerpt from the California PE Act.
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Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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Since the article did not list the States involved and since we do work in all 50 States it is now are policy that you do not use PE on anything unless you are registered in that State.
To make matters worse we are seeing where an Engineer from one of the Codes is being investigated giving Engineering related answers (clarifying their code) while not registered in the State where the answer came from. We also saw a State Board member tell a speaker at a conference that he could not give a seminar about the new Seismic provisions unless his company had a Certificate of authority and that he was licensed as a Professional Engineer in the State.
While I am all for State licensure and require professional to be licensed in a State to do work in that State the State Boards seem to have discovered a new way to fine engineers to generate money. It used to be odd to see someone punished by the State Board, now you are guaranteed to several people every newsletter. It seems like most are firms not having a CoA. We have over 100 engineers licensed in our home State yet the State Board still wants another $300 for the Company.
To get to the point, if you use PE after your name and are not licensed in that State you could easily fine yourself in front of the State board getting fined.
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I have also seen some court testimony by "Expert Witness" PE's challenged becasue they were not licensed in that state.
The laws of Physics and Engineering know no state boundary -How about a National License....
Also - isn't all this licensing hassle really in violation of Free Trade as promised by the Federal govt.
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Following is the board guideline on this issue:
"Individuals who are engineering graduates may use terms such as BSCE (Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering), "Graduate Engineer", or "Engineer in Training" (if applicable) in any advertisement, letterhead, business cards, etc."
KRS 322.020 says that someone not licensed cannot use a term that create the perception that they are licensed. Using "Electrical Engineer" would tend to do that since there is an electrical PE exam. Therefore, the board does not like to see that title used.
Titles listed in our guideline above could be adapted to an electrical engineer. One could even use "Graduate Electrical Engineer".
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http://www.licensingreform.org/
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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I suggest using the title "PooBah," as in Electrical PooBah, Civil PooBah, Structural PooBah, etc. Then, there will be ABSOLUTELY no confusion about who's a Professional PooBah.
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I like your idea, but it should be PooEee, that way my company will not give me grief about changing my bussiness card to Monkeydog P.B.
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Doing that to 500 cards would need to be billed to something.....hmmmm
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I heard somewhere that some states allow one to use retired, if you are not practicing.
If one is not a "practicing engineer" or the document is not related to engineering, than what is the purpose of including the "PE"?
This discussion got me thinking and so I contacted my state board. Here is their response. They do not state that you are breaking any law, they just "do not like to see" it.
That may be Kentucky's policy, but it appears other states may have different views.
Perhaps the first "persons" to be prosecuted for misusing the engineer title should be the universities. After all, the degrees they give out to their fresh graduates say that you are an engineer
My diploma does not say I am an engineer. It says I successfully completed the curriculum required by the University I attended, in my particular field of engineering. However, my P.E. license does specifically say I am a Professional Engineer.
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You work(ed) for the Soviets? You dirty commie!
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You must work for Boing Company
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However, the use of PE or any derivative thereof when not licensed is a serious matter, as it gives the impression that one is licensed and able to offer their services to the public. If you are not a licensed engineer, then the use of PE is wrong and opens yourself up to prosecution.
As a register engineer in Canada (Ontario), yet working in the US, I do include the P.Eng designation after my name when the time calls for it (typically it only appears on my resume). Otherwise it does not get included.
As a final note, I think the trend in exempt industries is to refer to engineers as analysts. That is how job descriptions are posted around this company. I think this is done to avoid hassles with the Boards.
Regards,
jetmaker
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I am an engineer. 40+ hours of the week, I take engineering principles, and make them usable for my company by virtue of creating products. I would NEVER tell anyone I had my PE.
I feel that if you are misrepresenting yourself as a PE, then there is a problem, because people's safety may be at stake. However, people who think of being a PE as a status symbol, alone, is a different story. If anyone is going to tell me that I'm not an engineer, just because I'm not a PE, then they can stick their PE certificate where the sun don't shine.
I'm sick of this holier than thou crap.
That being said, I'm taking my PE test as soon as I'm able.
V
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There are a couple of popular engineering magazines around. In them - there are articles addressing engineering issues that are answered by the author who has either a PE or PLS after his/her name. The magazines are circulated at least around the US - probably further.
Is he/she violating the law?
What about the US syndicated doctor in the daily newspaper who answers medical questions. Is he practicing out of his jurisdiction??
Seems the real problems arise ONLY when something goes WRONG!!
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While national registration would effectively resolve this issue, it would diminsh states rights---so, when you travel, be careful who you pass your business card to! You could be violating the state's law!
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Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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First of all there is no legal requirement in any state in the United States dictating that a PE stamp be used on any NON-PUBLIC projects; therefore, the fact that this person's license expired 8 years earlier is a moot point!
Also, you don't need a proprietary system to have it's calculations and drawings signed off by a registered PE anymore than you need a non-proprietary system to be signed off (it's not an issue)
Keep in mind that the fact that a set of drawings are signed off on by a PE doesn't protect you legally if your firm did shoddy work of if there is some kind of accident - a PE stamp should not be mistaken as a legal "engineering shield."
To be perfectly blunt, a PE stamp is really just "window dressing" when you really think about it. Only a very small percentage of the enigneers ever employed in this country (or anywhere else) actually possess a PE stamp. The vast majority of engineering work done in this country is in fact not done by "Professional Engineers." If a PE stamp was required everytime construction plans were issued, this country would come to a screeching halt. No new hotels, no new refineries, no new sport stadiums, etc.
FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)
Also there's an applicable analogy here - many people are also hoodwinked by the physician term -"Board Certified." I saw a case recently where someone famous expired and the media blamed it on the fact that the doctor was not certifed as such. Outrageous. This is a total "non-sequitor." The average doctor in this country possesses a 4 year Bachelor's degree, an additional 4 year medical degree and many years of extensive training - Board Certification is just a cherry on top of an already loaded sundae- and ; just like engineers, the vast majority of doctors in the WORLD are not board certifed in anything.
Finally, yes it's true that you can't put "Professional Engineer" on your business card, stationary, etc. if you don't have a PE license but I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for putting Mechanical Engineer on their card or referring to themselves as such. I am a Mechancial Engineer and have a hard earned degree to back it up.
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You are imagining that when government agencies outsource their civil engineering work they don't require the people doing that work to be similarly licensed? The rules governing P.E. licensure for civil structures have to do with the type of work being done, not who the engineer in question works for.
Hg
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RE: Expired License
You did not mention whether this project involved a public entity but I sense that you're actually talking about a private project.
In fact, this is a public project, paid for with public funds.
First of all there is no legal requirement in any state in the United States dictating that a PE stamp be used on any NON-PUBLIC projects;
I'm not sure what you categorize as "non-public" projects, and I can't speak to what is required in your state, but in Pennsylvania, every commercial building construction project must have a building permit along with construction documents. The UCC was adopted in PA by law. Section 403.42a(b) of the Pennsylvania Uniform Construction Code states:
"A licensed architect or licensed professional engineer shall prepare the construction documents under the Architects Licensure Law or the Engineer, Land Surveyor and Geologist Registration Law. An unlicensed person may prepare design documents for the remodeling or alteration of a building if there is no compensation and the remodeling does not relate to additions to the building or changes to the building's structure."
I have not seen a building code official accept an unsealed set of documents since PA adopted the UCC.
therefore, the fact that this person's license expired 8 years earlier is a moot point!
Anyone who claims to be a registered PE in Pennsylvania without a current registration is in violation of PA state law….period. Please read the countless posts above.
Also, you don't need a proprietary system to have it's calculations and drawings signed off by a registered PE anymore than you need a non-proprietary system to be signed off (it's not an issue)
In this case, the Contract documents very specifically required this system be designed under the supervision of a legally registered professional engineer, signed and sealed. In your opinion, perhaps I didn't "need" to do this. But I chose to include this requirement; therefore it was contractually required to be provided. And representing himself to be a licensed engineer is an issue, regardless of whether it was required or not. Anyone who claims to be a registered PE in Pennsylvania without a current registration is in violation of PA state law….period
To be perfectly blunt, a PE stamp is really just "window dressing" when you really think about it.
I think the respect you have for the profession is pretty clear here.
Only a very small percentage of the engineers ever employed in this country (or anywhere else) actually possess a PE stamp.
Without a doubt, there are countless, competent, non-registered individuals performing engineering design work throughout the world. However, to be done legally in PA, it must be done under the supervision of a registered professional.
If a PE stamp was required everytime construction plans were issued, this country would come to a screeching halt. No new hotels, no new refineries, no new sport stadiums, etc.
Based on some earlier remarks about "industrial exceptions", I can't speak to the refineries. But I would be interested if you could cite any documentation about any specific sports stadiums or hotels within the U.S. that you believe haven't been designed under the supervision of registered professionals.
FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)
Another impressive statement of fact; I would be interested if you can reference any published statistical data that supports your "facts" rather then presenting your opinions as fact.
Finally, yes it's true that you can't put "Professional Engineer" on your business card, stationary, etc.
Obviously one can; The drawings I received were sealed! The question is, will the state registration board enforce the state law?
I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for putting Mechanical Engineer on their card or referring to themselves as such.
I agree. But in PA, as well as other states noted from other's posts, the state laws says otherwise. So it's still just a matter of enforcement.
As I said before, my objection isn't really with the use of the title of "engineer". It is with unlicensed individuals representing themselves to be PE's. The whole topic of the "title" came up in ElecEng's post on 2/20. My response was simply to cite what is written as the state law. If that is being "holier than though", than so be it.
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I can speak about refinery work though and we (a consulting firm)do have some work in the refineries that they (the refinery) require that our work be stamped by a PE. Much of our work doesn't require it though.
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My son-in-law" refers to my granddaughter as "little bit" since she is small. Perhaps for Engineer-in-Training you could use "PooBit"?
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May I serve as Undersecretary Deputy Assistant Executive Vice GAP until you end your munificent reign, oh great leader?
debodine
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Beyond that they'd probably have to refer the matter to the AG office and unless it's incredibly egregious then I suspect they'll not be spending much time chasing and prosecuting.
I sort of remember one case in NH about 20 years ago where a couple developers essentially lifted the seal of an engineer (forgive my lack of specifics - CRS), and prepared plans for several projects sealing with that engineers stamp (who had absolutely no knowledge of this). This one did get prosecuted when it was finally brought to light. Don't remember what the penalties were, though.
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4733.99 Penalty
(A) Whoever violates section 4733.22 of the Revised Code shall be fined not less than one hundred nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than ninety days, or both.
Chapter 4733.22 Prohibitions
No person shall practice, or offer to practice, the profession of engineering or the profession of surveying without being registered or exempted in accordance with this chapter, or present or attempt to use as the person's own the registration, the certificate of authorization, or the seal of another, or give any false or forged evidence of any kind to the state board of registration for professional engineers and surveyors or to any member thereof in obtaining registration or a certificate of authorization, or falsely impersonate any other registrant or holder of a certificate of authorization of like or different name, or attempt to use an expired, suspended, or revoked registration or certificate of authorization, or otherwise violate this chapter.
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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Or, and I don't know this for a fact 'cause I haven't looked into it, perhaps they can file a complaint with the local police department.
You're absolutely correct about the unpaid invoices. I doubt though that someone already committing fraud would go to court to collect fees. 'Ya never know though!
If I was to see someone representing themselves as an engineer and notified the engineering Board about it, they would immediately send out an agressive cease and desist letter. However, our state just doesn't have the money to prosecute every white collar crime.
It's a problem not just for engineers but for all disciplines that must be licensed.
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Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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Where I am the answer would be no you are NOT an EIT. Personally I would just sign the email as
Joe Smith
XYZ company
and leave it at that.
SLH
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But I don't see the point of calling yourself an EIT. It makes it looks like you're desperate for credentials. If it's appropriate to put your job title in your signature, use whatever your job title is.
Completely subjectively speaking, I don't see why "student engineer" sounds any more professional than "engineering intern". "Student" sounds less professional than "intern"--one has to do with school and one has to do with an actual workplace.
Hg
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Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
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Hg
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I'm not aware of any building department (unless you're perhaps the building official's cousin in Podunk) that will accept plans for a structure that are not signed and sealed by an architect or engineer, and architects are limited as to the scope of their responsible works, so engineers are typically responsible for signing and sealing certain segments of a project such as structural, mechanical, civil, and electrical.
No, those of us who are licensed professional engineers are not elitist. We are ethically and legally charged with the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public in our respective areas of practice. The "public" does not only mean "public projects". Yes, we get a bit testy when unlicensed engineers hold themselves out as equivalent in the public realm. They are not. If they design something and it goes awry, the only recourse the "public" has is to sue them in civil court for damages. If a licensed individual makes a similar mistake, the individual is then statutorily and civilly responsible, with the risk of a loss of license to practice. Each time we sign and seal something, we put a hell of a lot more on the line than an unlicensed individual.
Try getting professional liability insurance for performing engineering services without a license. I doubt it's possible.
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For future reference, you don't need your boss' input or approval to report what you saw to the board.