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Expired License
11

Expired License

Expired License

(OP)
I am the EOR for a project in which we utilized a fiberglass floor system.  As a somewhat proprietary system, I required calculations and drawings for this system to be submitted that were signed and sealed by a registered PE. When I received the submission, I discovered that the PE's license expired 8 years ago. We subsequently recieved drawings signed and sealed by another engineer (currently registered) in addition to the previous seal.

I am preparing to file a complaint with our state licensing board, but my boss has indicated that he thought I should I should just let the matter drop, since we did receive drawings sealed by a currently registered PE.  

What are your thoughts?

RE: Expired License

This may be different in your jurisdiction but where I practice one of the codes of ethics would make me as guilty as the perpetrator if I know of the deficiency/oversite/violation and did not report it.

EJL

RE: Expired License

How many other projects has the unlicensed engineer worked on since the expiration?  How many will he continue to work on until the licensing board is told about him?  They need to be informed, else there's no point in having a licensing board at all... what good is it if they have no power to hold engineers accountable for their actions?

Tell, and tell them now, else you might be held responsible sometime in the future.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Expired License

You posted to this board, thus you made publicly aware your knowledge in this case.  You are ethically required, and probably legally now, to report it.

My question is, at the risk of sounding sarcastic (or worse), why did you even think this was a question?  Out of the no-brainer ethical delimas we face as engineers, this one is clear cut.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

RE: Expired License

2
(OP)
swertel,

In my mind, this is a no-brainer. I guess my bigger dillema is what my future is in working for a company that can't or won't see the ethical obligations of PE's.  Maybe I was looking for the outside chance that someone, somewhere could come up with a reason to support my boss's poistion that I was missing.



RE: Expired License

Being in the midwest I can 'understand' your bosses position as most people don't want to rock the boat.  When you rock the boat it can have other detrimental effects - like losing a part of your work.

The thing about ethics is that it does require someone to rock the boat at times.

And in the end - doing what is right usually pays as it will allow you maintain clients.

RE: Expired License

If his license had lapsed by a few days -- I might just mention it to him and let him get up to speed.  Maybe the papeer work crossed in the mail.  But EIGHT years -- not acceptable.  He MUST be reported.

Recently - I submitted a Florida project with just an old wet seal - not embossed - because my embosser had just broken and I was getting a new one.  My luck - the EOR on the other side was on the Flordia Board.  What are the ODDS???  He called me to remind me about the FL regs.  I explained my predicament and he understood.  Followed up w/ embossed copies.

Even if a board says they do not accept anonymous complaints - most actually will do a follow up esp if this is something as simple as looking up a license.

RE: Expired License

JWK05:

There is really nothing supporting your bosses position, other than the dilemma of possibly the other engineer being his personal, long-time friend.  That can be difficult.  I am not suggesting that it is an excuse to ignore the impropriety in any sense of the word.  Friendship just makes the obvious decision harder to implement.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Expired License

The one part of the story I am not clear on, is did you (JWK05) have to ask for a current seal?  Or did the subcontractor update the drawings with a current seal without being called on it?

The impression is the first, but if the second, then there may be an honest story.

RE: Expired License

(OP)
monkeydog,

The sub updated the drawings with a current seal on his own.  It was at that point I discovered the first license was expired.  An asssociate from one of our branch offices called the engineer in question, and he said the engineer in question "acted dumb about it".....

As MiketheEngineer said, if it was just a few days, or even weeks, I could see something got missed accidently.  But 8 years is egregious.

Thank you for your responses.  The information has been sent to our State Board.

JKW

RE: Expired License

I was working with a consultant recently and got talking about expired licenses.  He indicated that he had inadvertly allowed one of his registrations to expire.  He keep signing work for about a year until he realized it.

The surprising thing about it was that the firm he worked for at that time had all there engineers check their licenses.  Three or four other people in the firm also had similair problems.

RE: Expired License

It will be interesting to know if the guy blatantly allowed his license to expire, of just grabbed an old seal.  
A call to the State Board will clear-up if his license is current.
One is a minor screw-up, the other I agree is flat-out-wrong.

RE: Expired License

Personally, I would report him to the state Board.  8 years is not a mistake.  For an expired/missing Certificate of Authorization, I typically let the person know I could not find a current COA for their firm.

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

RE: Expired License

(OP)
Just for clarification from my post yesterday....

"The sub updated the drawings with another engineer's current seal on his own."

As of today, The Board's website still show's his registration expired in 1999.

RE: Expired License

Can see now why you are so "spun-up".

RE: Expired License

This is why I love "bosses".  Is he a PE?  Does he understand the laws and the consequences of your state's act?

Don't let management dictate your profession

-
Aercoustics.com

RE: Expired License

Like noted....a few days or even a month could be s simple over-site, but 8 years is blatent  and he must be reported.

Ken

Ken
KE5DFR

RE: Expired License

Before fiing a compliant... I would make DARN SURE the website info is accurate.  The folks who plug the numbers into a database for the state probably have the education of about a 5th grader and most likely have never heard of "quality procedures" to insure the info he/she enters is accurate.

Just make a phone call to your state licensing board... and if you are able to speak to someone who speaks proper English... then you've had better luck than me at communicating with the state board...

 

RE: Expired License

I haven't renewed my licenses for a long time, but that does not stop me from signing communications "...,PE"

As a mech engr, I never had to use my PE stamp or provide documentation of my license except for a condition of employment; just once. I had to provide a copy of my degree, too.

RE: Expired License

(OP)
plasgears

I don't know where you are "signing" your communications from, but in Pennsylvania you don't have to "seal" a drawing to be violating the state law.

1) It is unlawful to practice engineering unless he is licensed and registered as a professional engeineer.
2) A person shall be construed to practice engineering if they verbally claim, sign, advertise, or in any other way represents himself to be an engineer.

This is from the Pennsylvania Engineer, Land Surveyor and Geologist Registration Law.  I would bet that whatever state you are in has similar language.

So I'm not sure what the intent of your post is.  Is it to show everyone that you are above the law? Or is it to show everyone that you are getting away with breaking it?

RE: Expired License

CA too has a similar requirement, JKW05.  Use of PE after my name would be a violation, as I never registered here, even though I keep my NY registration current.

RE: Expired License

I think almost every state has about the same rule using the term "PE" and I am registered in about 42 states.

If I ever HAVE to sign a letter using PE after my name and I am NOT registered in that state - then I add something like "Registered in STATE"

Some industrial customers care less that you are registered in their state - just that you are registered somewhere.  Federal OSHA seems to be this way in many areas....CAL-OSHA is another story.



RE: Expired License

Me too, I sign my name Steven M. Schultheis, PE (Texas)
so there is no confusion as to where I am registered.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
 

 
 

RE: Expired License

California:

Quote:


It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer licensed under this chapter to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal or stamp of a professional engineer, or in any manner, use the title “professional ngineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or “consulting engineer,” or any of the following branch titles:  “agricultural engineer,” “chemical engineer,” “civil engineer,” “control system engineer,”  “electrical engineer,” “fire protection engineer,” “industrial engineer,” “mechanical engineer,” “metallurgical engineer,” “nuclear engineer,” “petroleum engineer,” or “traffic engineer,” or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter.

Also

Quote:


It is unlawful for anyone to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal after the certificate of the registrant, named thereon, has expired or has been suspended or revoked, unless the certificate has been renewed or reissued.

The industrial exemption allows non-licensed engineers to do work for their companies that would otherwise require a license.  It's unclear from the PE act what those engineers, like me, are allowed to use on our business cards.

TTFN

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RE: Expired License

(OP)
It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer licensed under this chapter to stamp or seal any plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents with the seal or stamp of a professional engineer, or in any manner, use the title “professional ngineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or “consulting engineer,” or any of the following branch titles:  “agricultural engineer,” “chemical engineer,” “civil engineer,” “control system engineer,”  “electrical engineer,” “fire protection engineer,” “industrial engineer,” “mechanical engineer,” “metallurgical engineer,” “nuclear engineer,” “petroleum engineer,” or “traffic engineer,” or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter

What isn't clear?

RE: Expired License

JKW05,

Sorry you confused me. If I understand you correctly, you are saying no one can put "electrical engineer" on their business card unless they are a PE?

Kentucky law state:

322.020 Practice of engineering or land surveying without license prohibited.
(1) Unless licensed as a professional engineer, no person shall:
(a) Engage in the practice of engineering;
(b) Offer to practice engineering; or
(c) Use, assume, or advertise in any way any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is a professional engineer.
(2) Unless licensed as a professional land surveyor, no person shall:
(a) Engage in the practice of land surveying;
(b) Offer to practice land surveying; or
(c) Use, assume, or advertise in any way any title or description tending to convey
the impression that he or she is a professional land surveyor.

I am not sure stating that you are an "electrical engineer" meets this restriction, but then I haven't been a PE for very long either. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

RE: Expired License

(OP)
I have heard varying opinions on who can ethically advertise themselves as an "engineer"  And I wouldn't claim to be the "title" police.  I certainly don't find fault with train operators referring to themselves as "engineers". However, what is clear to me is that unless one is licensed by the state, they can't legally advertise themselves as a professional engineer, regardless of the field.  Use of "PE" indicates one is an engineer recognized to have met the professional standards of, and currently licensed in that state.

RE: Expired License

That wasn't the issue.  

Quote:

(a)  This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b)  For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

Since industry employees are legally exemption from needing to be licensed to do the work, why wouldn't they likewise be legally exempt from needing a license to call themselves "electrical engineers?"

TTFN

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RE: Expired License

(OP)
Irstuff,

Thank you for your input. My primary objection has been to those who insist on referring to themselves as PE, when they are in fact not registered professional engineers with the state. Your previous post did not present the exception you have now cited, and I am not aware of any such exception in Pennsylvania.

But that exception is consistent with the differing opinions that I have heard: Within an organization one can call themselves whatever they want. Outside of the organization, one cannot. IMHO, the exception you cite appears to permit one to list himself as an "electrical engineer" (in CA), as long as it was for that corporation.  However in Pennsylvania, unless someone can cite a similar exception, the registration law specifically says one cannot do that.

This is paraphrased, but it expresses the PA act:

"A person shall be construed to practice or to offer to practice engineering . . . who, by verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or any other way represents himself to be an engineer, . . . or through the use of some other title implies that he is an engineer."

IMHO, Pennsylvania law prohibits the title of "Electrical Engineer" to be used, unless one is registered engineer.

Please understand, I am not suggesting that non-registered designers, technicians, engineers, or whatever they may be titled as, are not competent.  I certainly know many non-registered individuals who are, in many respects, more knowledgeable and competent than I am. And I know many PE's who, let's say, aren't so much....  But I guess the question may be: what is one's intent in using the term "engineer" in lieu of "technician" or "designer".  Is it to deceive the recipient into believing that one is a registered PE?

If I treat a cut hand by spraying some Bactine on it and wrapping it in a bandaid, is it appropriate for me to advertise myself as a "nurse" or "physician".  I'm pretty sure I would by facing legal problems if I added "R.N." or "M.D." after my name.  Why should the engineering profession not be held to a comparable level of respect?

RE: Expired License

     Exempt from license requirements in industrial positions does NOT allow anyone to call themselves "electrical engineers" without a Professional License in the States.  I must designate what state I am licensed in when saying I am a PE in another state where I do not hold a license.  Thus my business card says PE licensed in Nevada and Nebraska.  (Pretty much worthless in the other 48 States.)

RE: Expired License

2
New York State allows anyone to refer to themselves as an Engineer. New Jersey is similar to what JKW05 described for Pennsylvania.

RE: Expired License

I disagree with EddyC:  NY State Law Article 145 Statute 7208.K, One may use the title of engineer within a company, but may not advertise to the public that one is a engineer without licensure.

RE: Expired License

For those States that do not allow anyone to call themselves an X "engineer", how do unlicenced engineers get their "engineering" experience to become a P.E.?  I'm pretty certain that Indiana required you to be working as an "engineer" for the 4 yrs in order to take the P.E. exam.

RE: Expired License

zelgar,

Is this the reason for "Engineer-in-Training?" This is an interesting topic and I will have to check with my local state board, but it does raise questions about people I know.

RE: Expired License

In California, you would take the EIT test and put EIT in your business card.  However, you can work for an exempted company and get your experience from someone within that company who does have a PE, and then work for your PE.  

Our company fall in the exemption and out of about 200 engineers, only maybe 6 are PEs, and most are probably lapsed.

TTFN

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RE: Expired License

(OP)
In PA, an individual must gain engineering experience under the supervision of a PE as an "Engineer-in-Training".  He promotes himself as an EIT, and not as a P.E., or an engineer at all. The title exactly states his professional position, and the use of that title is permitted by the state act. As an EIT, that individual is not practicing engineering, his supervisor is. The EIT certification requires certain educational achievements, as well as passing a written exam. As far as I know, this process is pretty much uniform throughout the U.S. courtesy of the NCEES.

RE: Expired License

In a way I think this is funny.  Until I got my P.E., I considered myself an engineer, since that was my position and my college degree.

Since I received my P.E., the only change was to include the P.E. after my name on my business card.  I work for the State of Indiana, and most of the other engineers I work with don't have their P.E.'s.

I think most engineers (with and without their P.E.) would agree that if you don't see the P.E. after a name, you would expect that they worked as an engineer, but were not professionally licenced.  If they do have "PE" or "P.E." after their name, would believe that person was professionally licenced.

RE: Expired License

zelgar, I believed the same as you until I got my PE as well. Then reading this made me wonder if I had been in violation of state laws for years by having "electrical engineer" on my business cards. I love this sight for what you can learn here.

RE: Expired License

JKW05,

Heretofore I will sign "..., PE ret"

The connotation of this is past registration, and implied competence by degree and passing the license exam. I am not trying to violate any laws. I am merely conveying the sense of competence.

RE: Expired License

I think that would be a bad idea, depending on the state board in question.  You either are licensed or not.  There's no in-between in the law.  

In particular, you're using the ONE title that would be most like to get you into trouble, "PE" stands for "Profession Engineer" which requires a current license, see my excerpt from the California PE Act.

TTFN

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RE: Expired License

A while back there was an article about an Engineer being fined for using PE after his name in a State he was not licensed in.  The main part of the Story was that he was a Licensed Professional Engineer in a State, he was the design engineer on a project in another State that his immediate supervisor signed and sealed (this happens all the time).  An RFI came in from the contractor and he answered the RFI and used PE after his name (this also happens all the time).  Fast forward and he is fined and hits the national magazine.  The article explained that he was fined for practicing engineering without being licensed.  If he had not used PE after his name he would not have been fined and could have answered the RFI.  

Since the article did not list the States involved and since we do work in all 50 States it is now are policy that you do not use PE on anything unless you are registered in that State.  

To make matters worse we are seeing where an Engineer from one of the Codes is being investigated giving Engineering related answers (clarifying their code) while not registered in the State where the answer came from.  We also saw a State Board member tell a speaker at a conference that he could not give a seminar about the new Seismic provisions unless his company had a Certificate of authority and that he was licensed as a Professional Engineer in the State.  

While I am all for State licensure and require professional to be licensed in a State to do work in that State the State Boards seem to have discovered a new way to fine engineers to generate money.  It used to be odd to see someone punished by the State Board, now you are guaranteed to several people every newsletter.  It seems like most are firms not having a CoA.  We have over 100 engineers licensed in our home State yet the State Board still wants another $300 for the Company.  

To get to the point, if you use PE after your name and are not licensed in that State you could easily fine yourself in front of the State board getting fined.

RE: Expired License

So once you pass the PE test, how do you keep your licence valid?

RE: Expired License

You keep your PE license valid by following the Rules and Regs of your state.

I have also seen some court testimony by "Expert Witness" PE's challenged becasue they were not licensed in that state.

The laws of Physics and Engineering know no state boundary -How about a National License....

Also - isn't all this licensing hassle really in violation of Free Trade as promised by the Federal govt.

RE: Expired License

This discussion got me thinking and so I contacted my state board. Here is their response. They do not state that you are breaking any law, they just "do not like to see" it.

Following is the board guideline on this issue:

"Individuals who are engineering graduates may use terms such as BSCE (Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering), "Graduate Engineer", or "Engineer in Training" (if applicable) in any advertisement, letterhead, business cards, etc."

KRS 322.020 says that someone not licensed cannot use a  term that create the perception that they are licensed. Using "Electrical Engineer" would tend to do that since there is an electrical PE exam. Therefore, the board does not like to see that title used.

Titles listed in our guideline above could be adapted to an electrical engineer. One could even use "Graduate Electrical Engineer".

RE: Expired License

While they might not try to prosecute, California law says otherwise

Quote:

It is unlawful for anyone other than a professional engineer ... use the title ... electrical engineer ... or any combination of these words and phrases or abbreviations thereof unless licensed under this chapter

TTFN

FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

RE: Expired License

IMHO this should be a national standard and not left up to the  states. "We" as engineers have done a poor job in protecting our title unlike doctors and architects and it ahs only hurt our salaries.

RE: Expired License

Perhaps the first "persons" to be prosecuted for misusing the engineer title should be the universities. After all, the degrees they give out to their fresh graduates say that you are an engineer. Its seems that the only folks that get in trouble for this engineering title misuse are the "little guys/gals".

RE: Expired License

Universities have been in business way longer than PEs.  If anyone should change, it should be the PEs, as they are fighting a losing battle with sanitation engineers, and sales engineers.

I suggest using the title "PooBah," as in Electrical PooBah, Civil PooBah, Structural PooBah, etc.  Then, there will be ABSOLUTELY no confusion about who's a Professional PooBah.

TTFN

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RE: Expired License

Thanks for the laugh this morning IRstuff - a Aerospace PooBah I assume.

RE: Expired License

IRstuff,
I like your idea, but it should be PooEee, that way my company will not give me grief about changing my bussiness card to Monkeydog P.B.

RE: Expired License

You COULD just draw to small arcs on the 'E' to make it a 'B' :)

Doing that to 500 cards would need to be billed to something.....hmmmm

RE: Expired License

(OP)
Here are some of my thought on some previous posts:

I heard somewhere that some states allow one to use retired, if you are not practicing.

If one is not a "practicing engineer" or the document is not related to engineering, than what is the purpose of including the "PE"?

This discussion got me thinking and so I contacted my state board. Here is their response. They do not state that you are breaking any law, they just "do not like to see" it.

That may be Kentucky's policy, but it appears other states may have different views.

Perhaps the first "persons" to be prosecuted for misusing the engineer title should be the universities. After all, the degrees they give out to their fresh graduates say that you are an engineer

My diploma does not say I am an engineer.  It says I successfully completed the curriculum required by the University I attended, in my particular field of engineering.  However, my P.E. license does specifically say I am a Professional Engineer.

RE: Expired License

IR stuff,

You work(ed) for the Soviets? You dirty commie!

RE: Expired License

Evil Empire?  
You must work for Boing Company

RE: Expired License

Calling oneself an engineer when not licensed is not that "serious" of an offense, which is why most boards simply forward a letter frowning upon the use, and rarely enforce the action beyond the letter.  

However, the use of PE or any derivative thereof when not licensed is a serious matter, as it gives the impression that one is licensed and able to offer their services to the public.  If you are not a licensed engineer, then the use of PE is wrong and opens yourself up to prosecution.

As a register engineer in Canada (Ontario), yet working in the US, I do include the P.Eng designation after my name when the time calls for it (typically it only appears on my resume).  Otherwise it does not get included.  

As a final note, I think the trend in exempt industries is to refer to engineers as analysts.  That is how job descriptions are posted around this company.  I think this is done to avoid hassles with the Boards.

Regards,

jetmaker

RE: Expired License

This engineer title issue is problematic. The folks who aren't licensed are always asked in social situations: "What do you do?" If we go by the letter of the state law, the answer would be: "I do engineering, but I am not an engineer unless I'm within my office." You can imaging the confused reactions of the general public to such an answer. It doesn't affect me, since I am a PE.

RE: Expired License

Could the confusion stem from such a pretentious response?

RE: Expired License

2
Let me start my response off by saying that I'm not a PE.

I am an engineer. 40+ hours of the week, I take engineering principles, and make them usable for my company by virtue of creating products. I would NEVER tell anyone I had my PE.

I feel that if you are misrepresenting yourself as a PE, then there is a problem, because people's safety may be at stake. However, people who think of being a PE as a status symbol, alone, is a different story. If anyone is going to tell me that I'm not an engineer, just because I'm not a PE, then they can stick their PE certificate where the sun don't shine.

I'm sick of this holier than thou crap.

That being said, I'm taking my PE test as soon as I'm able. 2thumbsup

V


RE: Expired License

How about this...

There are a couple of popular engineering magazines around.  In them - there are articles addressing engineering issues that are answered by the author who has either a PE or PLS after his/her name.  The magazines are circulated at least around the US - probably further.

Is he/she violating the law?

What about the US syndicated doctor in the daily newspaper who answers medical questions.  Is he practicing out of his jurisdiction??

Seems the real problems arise ONLY when something goes WRONG!!

RE: Expired License

I thought I'd run into a similar discussion about passing out business cards in states other than you are licensed in.  The thrust of registration is to attempt to make sure that engineering work is performed under the direction of "competent" engineers (as determined by the state's licensing board) and protect the public trust.  However, it is clear that states do not want people to represent themselves as an engineer unless they are licensed in their state, the presumption being that engineering business will be done.  My business card does not identify the states in I'm licensed in - so, I believe in some states I cannot pass out my business card, since it can be construed as misrepresenting myself in that state.

While national registration would effectively resolve this issue, it would diminsh states rights---so, when you travel, be careful who you pass your business card to!  You could be violating the state's law!  


RE: Expired License

So long as the articles are officially written in the state from whence they're licensed.  This scenario is covered under reciprocity.

TTFN

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RE: Expired License

For the instance of a business card, the address implies which state the person is licensed in.  Similarly, most articles I read give the author's location.

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

RE: Expired License

You did not mention whether this project involved a public entity but I sense that you're actually talking about a private project.  If so you have no case plus there are other problems with your analysis of the situation.

First of all there is no legal requirement in any state in the United States dictating that a PE stamp be used on any NON-PUBLIC projects; therefore, the fact that this person's license expired 8 years earlier is a moot point!   

Also, you don't need a proprietary system to have it's calculations and drawings signed off by a registered PE anymore than you need a non-proprietary system to be signed off (it's not an issue)

Keep in mind that the fact that a set of drawings are signed off on by a PE doesn't protect you legally if your firm did shoddy work of if there is some kind of accident - a PE stamp should not be mistaken as a legal "engineering shield."  

To be perfectly blunt, a PE stamp is really just "window dressing" when you really think about it.  Only a very small percentage of the enigneers ever employed in this country (or anywhere else) actually possess a PE stamp.  The vast majority of engineering work done in this country is in fact not done by "Professional Engineers."   If a PE stamp was required everytime construction plans were issued, this country would come to a screeching halt.   No new hotels, no new refineries, no new sport stadiums, etc.

FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)

Also there's an applicable analogy here - many people are also hoodwinked by the physician term -"Board Certified."   I saw a case recently where someone famous expired and the media blamed it on the fact that the doctor was not certifed as such.   Outrageous.  This is a total "non-sequitor."   The average doctor in this country possesses a 4 year Bachelor's degree, an additional 4 year medical degree and many years of extensive training - Board Certification is just a cherry on top of an already loaded sundae- and ; just like engineers, the vast majority of doctors in the WORLD are not board certifed in anything.

Finally, yes it's true that you can't put "Professional Engineer" on your business card, stationary, etc. if you don't have a PE license but I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for putting Mechanical Engineer on their card or referring to themselves as such.  I am a Mechancial Engineer and have a hard earned degree to back it up.




RE: Expired License

"FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)"

You are imagining that when government agencies outsource their civil engineering work they don't require the people doing that work to be similarly licensed?  The rules governing P.E. licensure for civil structures have to do with the type of work being done, not who the engineer in question works for.

Hg

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RE: Expired License

(OP)
Responses to Encap's post:

You did not mention whether this project involved a public entity but I sense that you're actually talking about a private project.

In fact, this is a public project, paid for with public funds.

First of all there is no legal requirement in any state in the United States dictating that a PE stamp be used on any NON-PUBLIC projects;

I'm not sure what you categorize as "non-public" projects, and I can't speak to what is required in your state, but in Pennsylvania, every commercial building construction project must have a building permit along with construction documents. The UCC was adopted in PA by law.  Section 403.42a(b) of the Pennsylvania Uniform Construction Code states:

"A licensed architect or licensed professional engineer shall prepare the construction documents under the Architects Licensure Law or the Engineer, Land Surveyor and Geologist Registration Law. An unlicensed person may prepare design documents for the remodeling or alteration of a building if there is no compensation and the remodeling does not relate to additions to the building or changes to the building's structure."

I have not seen a building code official accept an unsealed set of documents since PA adopted the UCC.

therefore, the fact that this person's license expired 8 years earlier is a moot point!

Anyone who claims to be a registered PE in Pennsylvania without a current registration is in violation of PA state law….period.  Please read the countless posts above.  

Also, you don't need a proprietary system to have it's calculations and drawings signed off by a registered PE anymore than you need a non-proprietary system to be signed off (it's not an issue)

In this case, the Contract documents very specifically required this system be designed under the supervision of a legally registered professional engineer, signed and sealed.  In your opinion, perhaps I didn't "need" to do this.  But I chose to include this requirement; therefore it was contractually required to be provided. And representing himself to be a licensed engineer is an issue, regardless of whether it was required or not. Anyone who claims to be a registered PE in Pennsylvania without a current registration is in violation of PA state law….period

To be perfectly blunt, a PE stamp is really just "window dressing" when you really think about it.

I think the respect you have for the profession is pretty clear here.

Only a very small percentage of the engineers ever employed in this country (or anywhere else) actually possess a PE stamp.

Without a doubt, there are countless, competent, non-registered individuals performing engineering design work throughout the world. However, to be done legally in PA, it must be done under the supervision of a registered professional.

If a PE stamp was required everytime construction plans were issued, this country would come to a screeching halt.   No new hotels, no new refineries, no new sport stadiums, etc.

Based on some earlier remarks about "industrial exceptions", I can't speak to the refineries.  But I would be interested if you could cite any documentation about any specific sports stadiums or hotels within the U.S. that you believe haven't been designed under the supervision of registered professionals.  

FYI: The vast majority of PE licenses are held by public servant Civil Engineers who work for the city , state, and federal highway departments. (The fact is they could contract out to private firms with few or no PEs and the quality would be just as good and everything would probably be cheaper too)

Another impressive statement of fact; I would be interested if you can reference any published statistical data that supports your "facts" rather then presenting your opinions as fact.  

Finally, yes it's true that you can't put "Professional Engineer" on your business card, stationary, etc.

Obviously one can; The drawings I received were sealed! The question is, will the state registration board enforce the state law?

I have never heard of anyone getting in trouble for putting Mechanical Engineer on their card or referring to themselves as such.

I agree.  But in PA, as well as other states noted from other's posts, the state laws says otherwise. So it's still just a matter of enforcement.

As I said before, my objection isn't really with the use of the title of "engineer". It is with unlicensed individuals representing themselves to be PE's.  The whole topic of the "title" came up in ElecEng's post on 2/20.  My response was simply to cite what is written as the state law. If that is being "holier than though", than so be it.

RE: Expired License

JKW05 - I wasn't trying to complicate the discussion, but I must have. I was just sharing KY law and I agree with your comments above.

I can speak about refinery work though and we (a consulting firm)do have some work in the refineries that they (the refinery) require that our work be stamped by a PE. Much of our work doesn't require it though.  

RE: Expired License

I suggest using the title "PooBah," as in Electrical PooBah, Civil PooBah, Structural PooBah, etc.  Then, there will be ABSOLUTELY no confusion about who's a Professional PooBah.

My son-in-law" refers to my granddaughter as "little bit" since she is small.  Perhaps for Engineer-in-Training you could use "PooBit"?

RE: Expired License

I meant to give credit for the first line in my post above, but forgot.  That quote from IRStuff about using "Poobah" was great, and I was just trying to capitalize on that humorous vein.  But I had intended to give credit and hit "Submit Post" too soon.

RE: Expired License

I aspire to your exalted heights of power and wisdom, oh IRstuff the GAP (Grand Exalted Poobah), but as long as you are the reigning GAP, there can be no other.

May I serve as Undersecretary Deputy Assistant Executive Vice GAP until you end your munificent reign, oh great leader?

clown

debodine

RE: Expired License

Still can't type properly...that's GAP (Grand Aerospace Poobah).  I think your dazzling crown blinded my eyes...

RE: Expired License

Of course, if you're not licensed, there's nothing a State Engineering Board can actually do to you other than write a letter or two.

Beyond that they'd probably have to refer the matter to the AG office and unless it's incredibly egregious then I suspect they'll not be spending much time chasing and prosecuting.

I sort of remember one case in NH about 20 years ago where a couple developers essentially lifted the seal of an engineer (forgive my lack of specifics - CRS), and prepared plans for several projects sealing with that engineers stamp (who had absolutely no knowledge of this).  This one did get prosecuted when it was finally brought to light.  Don't remember what the penalties were, though.

RE: Expired License

This is the penalty in Ohio:

4733.99 Penalty
(A) Whoever violates section 4733.22 of the Revised Code shall be fined not less than one hundred nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than ninety days, or both.

Chapter 4733.22 Prohibitions
No person shall practice, or offer to practice, the profession of engineering or the profession of surveying without being registered or exempted in accordance with this chapter, or present or attempt to use as the person's own the registration, the certificate of authorization, or the seal of another, or give any false or forged evidence of any kind to the state board of registration for professional engineers and surveyors or to any member thereof in obtaining registration or a certificate of authorization, or falsely impersonate any other registrant or holder of a certificate of authorization of like or different name, or attempt to use an expired, suspended, or revoked registration or certificate of authorization, or otherwise violate this chapter.  

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

RE: Expired License

Oh, I don't doubt there's a penalty in NH as well.  But it still has to be prosecuted and the attorneys at the AGs office have far bigger fish to fry.  In other words, not enough manpower to prosecute everything that they'd like to.

 

RE: Expired License

Without a current PE registration, no unpaid invoices for engineering can be collected in a civil court.  Most boards will fine and send a cease and desist letter at the first incident of unregistered practice, I know Nevada will prosecute at subsequent violations or non payment of fines.

RE: Expired License

Our Joint Board of Engineering has no authority to issue fines to unlicensed individuals.  They can only discipline individuals who are licensed and governed by that particular Board (i.e. engineers, surveyors, wetland scientists,etc.).  Beyond that it has to get referred to the Attorney General's office for prosecution.

Or, and I don't know this for a fact 'cause I haven't looked into it, perhaps they can file a complaint with the local police department.

You're absolutely correct about the unpaid invoices.  I doubt though that someone already committing fraud would go to court to collect fees.  'Ya never know though!

If I was to see someone representing themselves as an engineer and notified the engineering Board about it, they would immediately send out an agressive cease and desist letter.  However, our state just doesn't have the money to prosecute every white collar crime.

It's a problem not just for engineers but for all disciplines that must be licensed.
 

RE: Expired License

The local police probably do not have juridiction unless they adopted a local ordinance enforcing that state law - and I doubt the law director would support such an ordinance.

Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com

RE: Expired License

This topic leads to a question I have.  Currently I am interning at an engineering contracting firm(I have about 3 semesters left of school).  When it comes to things such as my signature in an email, am I able to refer to myself as a "student engineer"?  It was suggested to me that this would sound slightly more professional than signing it with "engineering intern".  Could I refer to myself as an EIT without technically having a degree yet?

RE: Expired License

Quote (Jmadamek ):

This topic leads to a question I have.  Currently I am interning at an engineering contracting firm(I have about 3 semesters left of school).  When it comes to things such as my signature in an email, am I able to refer to myself as a "student engineer"?  It was suggested to me that this would sound slightly more professional than signing it with "engineering intern".  Could I refer to myself as an EIT without technically having a degree yet?  

Where I am the answer would be no you are NOT an EIT. Personally I would just sign the email as

Joe Smith
XYZ company

and leave it at that.

SLH
 

RE: Expired License

"Engineering Intern" seems to be the latest NCEES-correct term for "EIT".  According to them, you don't count as either one till you pass the FE exam.

But I don't see the point of calling yourself an EIT.  It makes it looks like you're desperate for credentials.  If it's appropriate to put your job title in your signature, use whatever your job title is.

Completely subjectively speaking, I don't see why "student engineer" sounds any more professional than "engineering intern".  "Student" sounds less professional than "intern"--one has to do with school and one has to do with an actual workplace.

Hg

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RE: Expired License

I've always thought if you have a title you should display it.  I'm an EIT, received my bachelors and passed the FE exam, so I put it on my email signature.  I don't feel that I'm desperate for credentials, I do feel it is important to distinguish myself from the PE's when corresponding with clients of the company that I work for.

RE: Expired License

You can take the test before you graduate.  I don't remember having to submit any proof of degree before they mailed me my certificate.

Hg

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RE: Expired License

To encap....in most states, anything deemed to be engineering work (plans, specifications, evaluations, reports, opinions, etc.) requires that it be done by a licensed professional engineer and so designated by signing and sealing.  It does not have to be a "public" project.  Specifically, in the state of my primary practice, if you are an employee of a corporation providing engineering services, ALL technical documents as engineering works submitted are to be signed and sealed by a licensed professional engineer, without regard to their application on public or private projects.

I'm not aware of any building department (unless you're perhaps the building official's cousin in Podunk) that will accept plans for a structure that are not signed and sealed by an architect or engineer, and architects are limited as to the scope of their responsible works, so engineers are typically responsible for signing and sealing certain segments of a project such as structural, mechanical, civil, and electrical.

No, those of us who are licensed professional engineers are not elitist.  We are ethically and legally charged with the protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public in our respective areas of practice. The "public" does not only mean "public projects".  Yes, we get a bit testy when unlicensed engineers hold themselves out as equivalent in the public realm.  They are not.  If they design something and it goes awry, the only recourse the "public" has is to sue them in civil court for damages.  If a licensed individual makes a similar mistake, the individual is then statutorily and civilly responsible, with the risk of a loss of license to practice.  Each time we sign and seal something, we put a hell of a lot more on the line than an unlicensed individual.

Try getting professional liability insurance for performing engineering services without a license.  I doubt it's possible.

RE: Expired License

When I sat for the FE you just needed to have 75% of your degree coursework completed.  The department had to send a degree evaluation to the state licensing board.
 

RE: Expired License

Regarding the OP (haven't read this whole thread, sorry):

For future reference, you don't need your boss' input or approval to report what you saw to the board.   

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