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Counter-offer
18

Counter-offer

Counter-offer

(OP)
I know this guy... who knows this girl...  She has worked for her current employer for 10yrs and pulls 82K/yr.  She accepted an offer from another company for 87K/yr.  Before her 2 week notice was up, her boss called her into his office.  "Would you mind telling me what your offer was", he asked.  She didn't want them to counter offer, so she lied and said 94K/yr.  To her surprise, they countered with 97K/yr.

First off, good for her!  Now, what does she do?  Thoughts?

RE: Counter-offer

She could accept the counter offer and stay.  If the reasons for wanting to leave are more than just for a higher salary, she could respond to the other company that she received a counter offer from her original employer that they could either match or possibly exceed.

Either way she needs to make a choice as her "bluff" got called.

When I left my first employer, the offered to immediately match the new offer.  My reasons for leaving went beyond salary so I declined.  The choice is ultimately hers.

Regards,

RE: Counter-offer

I agree with PSE.

There is also a lot more information that needs to be weighed. Do other employees know that she was going to leave? If so, would they treat her differently if she stayed? Is she sure that her boss isn't trying to make sure that he/she decides when she will leave, and not leave it up to her? Unfortunately in this world we live in, these are things that need to be contemplated.

Ultimately, compare the reasons to leave to the reasons to stay. Whatever weighs heavier--there's your decision.

Good luck either way.

Regards,

V

Mechanical Engineer
"When I am working on a problem, I do not think of beauty, but when I've finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong."

- R. Buckminster Fuller

RE: Counter-offer

2
I would decline the counter offer just out of spite.

To think they have been paying 82 for a job that is worth 97 would really tick me off.  You would then start to ask how many years of salary have you lost because of being underpaid and I would be livid.

RE: Counter-offer

Previous posts have good points.
You said she did not want them to counter-offer so she told them 94K, well, there is a reason she did not want them to counter-offer.

RE: Counter-offer

she should tell the other company her current employer countered 107k!

RE: Counter-offer

This is tricky and tempting; however, it also depends on the company she is going to.  If it is a major player in her industry, she would have to go.  You don’t want to piss off another company that may give you work in the future.  If she bails from the new company, that company will never take her serious again.  If the new company is small, well I would take the counter.  But taking the counter also has its pitfalls.  When layoffs come around, the people with less loyalty will be gone.  

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Counter-offer

One really needs to look at the reasons for leaving.  If there are reasons other than money, then getting a larger salary won't fix the problem.  While it may make things better for a while, the dissatisfaction will resurface.

As also pointed out, yes it is insulting that they were paying $82K and only when threatening to leave is the job worth $97K and this needs to be seriously considered.  On top of that, is there the chance for retaliation when the next round of layoffs comes?

Personally, once I have decided to leave a place and accepted an offer with a new a company I stick with my decision.

RE: Counter-offer

The above pretty much sum it up.  

Why was she leaving, if just money and she doesn't think it will come back to bight her then sure stay (although I tend to feel some sympathy for what JamesBarlow says).

If there are other reasons for leaving, or it may come back and bight her at the next layoffs etc then maybe best to go now.

I think the telling thing is: "She didn't want them to counter offer, so she lied and said 94K/yr".  So I'd guess there are other reasons for leaving and as others said, while money may patch this up for a while in a few months she'll be back to where she was, just a little more cash in the bank!

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Counter-offer

(OP)
The part that ticks me off the most, is that in order to get a substantial raise, you have to threaten to leave.  I don't think they would have given her 97K/yr if she hadn't turned in her resignation.  Even if she would have out-right asked for it, they may have given her a little raise, but not 15K.

RE: Counter-offer

Personally, in that situation, I wouldn't come back unless I were hired as a contract employee with the pay and full benefits stipulated in the contract and a buyout clause if they want to get rid of me before the term of the contract is up.  Using a new job to leverage a raise just brings up too many trust and loyalty issues going both ways.

Even then, in the hands of the right lawyer, that contract is worth less than the paper it's written on, so it still would be hard to come back.  

RE: Counter-offer

3

Quote:

The part that ticks me off the most, is that in order to get a substantial raise, you have to threaten to leave.

No kidding, I fought for 3 years with a previous employer to get 2 and 3% raises. I got fed up and left, on the way out the door they countered with an 18% raise.

Fortunetly it wasn't to far off the position I was moving to so I got to say: If I'm worth another 18% now, I was worth 18% more during rate review 3 months ago when you offered me 2%.

I also took the opportunity to tell everyone I left behind about the last minute offer. Several tendered resignations within weeks of mine just for the raise... and they got it.

RE: Counter-offer

Star for you Chris just for sticking it to the man!  

(I know, I know, don't burn bridges, act proffesionally...)

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Counter-offer

Now Chris IS "THE MAN"

RE: Counter-offer

I can't have burned the bridge too much, I recently received a phone call from the VP asking if I would be interested in coming back...

thumbsup2

Thanks monkeydog

RE: Counter-offer

I suppose you're the kind of person who falls in manure and comes up smelling of roses thenwinky smile.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Counter-offer

Many years ago I read an article that discussed counter-offers; the consensus: Don't Take It,because in six months you'll be dealing with the same things that made you quit in the first place.

RE: Counter-offer

Ahh, every time they call you, I bet the salary has to go up, too.  If not are they just offering you what you walked out on weeks ago?

If so, they're just showing you even more how underpaid you were.

It's fun to see companies like that operate and implode.  Neglect your employees at your own peril.  At the last company I worked for my group (3 engineers, 3 engineering techs, and a lab tech) was by far the largest revenue generator for the company.  We had just come off of a 2 year development cycle for a product that was a customer hit and was generating contracts left and right and was going to generate revenues far in excess of our operating and production costs.  At raise/bonus time, the development team who had suffered 2.5% or so raises for two years got a nice fat 7% raise as a reward for the success.  At that point, most of us on the team still hadn't caught up with three years of inflation, and we'd delivered a product that was going to save the company (which hadn't turned a profit in ten years).  A slap in the face is what we got for enduring poor raises and still delivering a product which by all measurements was a stunning success.  Then the hemorrhage started.  

On January 1 of the year the group imploded, all 7 of us that had developed the product were still there.  I lasted the longest out of those who left because I had obligations outside the company after completion of which I was leaving the area, so there was no sense in looking elsewhere.  On the day I left, I was the last degreed engineer in the group and there was only 1 other member of the original development group left.  At this point, orders had been placed, but the product had yet to go into production due to the nature of the product and purchasing cycles.  We were still in the tooling phase.

All for the want of a few decent raises and pats on the back for success, one of the finest teams I've ever had the privilege of working with evaporated, leaving the company high and dry in the middle of tooling up and preparation for production on a brand new product.

From what I hear, the product has finally turned the company around, and it's making a profit.  I also hear stories of five figure bonuses being given, so it appears that lessons have been learned.  I just wish it didn't take a great development team getting torn apart to do it.

RE: Counter-offer

Dang, I forgot the most important part of the story.  

We were invariably asked what the company could do to keep us when we'd give our notices and to a man, we all replied "nothing".  We knew that if we accepted any counteroffer, it would likely be a one-time band-aid fix until the company could find someone to replace us.  More money, a better office, better facilities, what have you will not repair the core problems and trust issues that drove us all to look elsewhere.

RE: Counter-offer

Remember, if you can negotiate even one dollar an hour more in this year's raise, it is like one extra dollar an hour for the rest of your career.

RE: Counter-offer

Quote:

If not are they just offering you what you walked out on weeks ago?

Weeks ago? It's been 4 years :)

RE: Counter-offer

They're hoping you've forgotten the bitter taste of bile?

RE: Counter-offer

If she was prepared to leave a 10 year job at $82k for a mere $5k increase it wasn't the money she was leaving for.
She needs to be upfront with her original boss and explain that she wasn't leaving for the money (but stay with the $94k for the moment).
If this is a resolvable problem, then think carefully about staying but think carefully about what salary she should stay for.
$97k sounds like an impulse that could haunt both players. But get the problem resolved and stay for $87-90k then the boss will feel real happy and hre will feel obligated and not blackmailed.
There is always a problem how to evaluate a counter offer. Is it impulse to be regretted later? Is it a fair reflection of what the job is worth to them? What is a fair rate for the job? Do they just want to keep you while they look for someone else? Will they want their moneys worth back again? how will you fare in future years, will they claw it back year by year?

Bluff called, play the cards out.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Counter-offer

Be upfront, honest, and ethical.

If the reason for changing companies was primarily salary in the first place, then she should have asked for a raise.

If the current company won't give a person a raise until they are walking out the door, I'd say "too little too late". While this is a common attitude company managers, it just doesn't sit well with me (why reward the folks who try to leave, as opposed to the folks who are loyal, so-to-speak).

If you already negotiated and accepted an offer at another company, I don't consider it ethical to withdraw you acceptance, unless something extreme happened.

RE: Counter-offer

If she was working out her notice I would assume she had said to her future employer that she will start on a certain date and accepted their offer, if she accepts the counter offer she will have lied to them.

If she accepts the new counter offer she will have done so having lied about the original offer.

I would guess that if neither company would view her very highly if they knew the truth and if they find out it could come back to bite her. Whilst choosing to live by the sword and die by the sword might bring short term or even long term gain it is not a good way to do business.

Personally I would be honest and true to my word and treat the company in the same way as I would want them to treat me.

RE: Counter-offer

The salary difference now is 10k (approx.11.4% above her offer in the new job). Personally I don't like coutner-offers as I have the perception that sooner or later you pay it with interest. Either way, I think that if she didn't accept the other offer, maybe there is room for negotiation. Tell them that she has a counter offer, that she is not willing to stay in thw current company but the gap is quite wide and what can the new company do about it.One negotiation tactic that has worked for me is to start in a lower salary and after 3 or 6 months being raised to the salary level that I ask for. In my current job, they even raised me the salary after 2 months when the agreement was only after 3 months. It gives time for a person show some work and the manager is more open to raise after than upfront. Of course, this has to be written in the contract. In my previous agreements (that worked out well) I was raised between 8-10% in this extraordinary increase.
good luck and let us know how it went.

RE: Counter-offer

I take note of the last three posts and they say it clear; the game of offer and counter offer is not a nice one and can end in tears.

I see my post implies that the counter offer should be considered and it shouldn't. I have said as much in other threads but didn't say it here.

Well, I guess I got sidetracked by the reason for changing jobs after 10 years for such a small raise.

So no, I don't advocate taking the counter offer but having received such a good counter offer the employer does deserve to know the real reason for leaving (unless he's it, in which case, it won't do any good saying it.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Counter-offer

I read the same thing bridgebuster.  

You should never, ever take a counter.  The same reason you are leaving will most likely still be there down the road.

Was that your raise for the next few years?  Might be.

Everyone will find out since you most likely mentioned it to a few people. Even friends talk and might let something slip unintentionally.  It will never be the same.

Also, you have just shown you are disloyal.  If you accept, they will be holding all the cards.  You have nothing to negotiate with if things turn bad in a few months, or you realize that the person they just hired, and you are training, is your replacement.

I have never taken one.  I don't even let it get that far anymore.  They start to say "is there anything..."  No! ;)

Occasionally I have quit over money.  But even if they would of countered with more I would say no.  Guaranteed that if the company needs to downsize you are the first they are gonna look at.

RE: Counter-offer

The side effects of accepting the coutner offer are well known and were already widely discussed here, but we cannot forget that 11.4% salary difference is way to much to be ignored (at least in my standards). What I suggested was to try to negotiate with the new company, not with the current one. Eventually she might go half way and then the difference might be neglectible. Other thing that we are not discussing is other benefits (insurances, vacation time, working hours, etc. ). I am assuming that all the rest is similar and only the salary is in stake here.
Be honest to your future employer and tell him:"My actual company counter offered 97k. I want to accept your offer but the gap is quite big. Can we reach an agreement say, 90k now and a raise to 97k in 6 months time?"

RE: Counter-offer

4
Accepting a counter offer is a bad thing to do under any circumstance.   Let me tell you about the only professional job I was ever fired from.   It was my second job out of college.   I had a buddy who knew of a job opening where he worked.   So I interviewed, got, and accepted the new job.  I had only been with the current employer for about six months and I was in the middle of a major project.   I gave my notice and thought that was the end of it.   Several days later my boss called me into his office and made a counter offer.   I accepted the counter offer and told the other company I wasn't taking the job.

Fast forward three months.  The DAY AFTER that major project I mentioned before was finished, my boss came to my desk and said "Bob, I need to speak to you"   I could tell by his tone and the look on his face that it wasn't going to be good.   We went in his office and he closed the door.   I nearly fell over when he laid it on me.  I was being accused of stealing from the company.   When I asked who had made the accusation, he would not divulge their name or even what led them/him to think I was stealing.   He had absolutely no proof that I had even done anything wrong.   I tried to talk my way out of it, but it went nowhere.  Without any idea of why I was being accused or even being given a chance to clear my name I was fired on the spot.    I packed up my belongings and security escorted me out of the building.   The whole thing reeked of BS to me.   I filed a claim for unemployment but it was denied since I didn't get a pink slip.   I threatened to sue my former employer and then all of a sudden the decided to pay my unemployment claim.

You see the thing you need to realize is that your boss is NOT your friend.   He is acting in his own/the company's' best interest.   When you give your notice, you are branded as "not being a team player".   As engineers we play key roles in an organization, and when one of us leaves, it can leave the boss high and dry when there is a lot of work to be done, and ultimately it is his head that will roll if the project you are leaving behind is screwed up due to your departure.   He's not making a counter offer out of the goodness of his heart, he's stalling your departure until he can find a more convenient time to can you.  

Maybe you won't be fired like I was, but I know several others who played the counter offer game and the stigma haunted them for years.  

On another level, unless money was the ONLY issue for leaving, the things you don't like about your job aren't going to magically go away once you accept the counter offer.   



RE: Counter-offer

Spongebob, Excellent example of what a lot of us meant by it coming back to bite you.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

RE: Counter-offer

I have heard of the same thing where I work if you take the counter offer. Its and un-written company policy for them to start looking for your replacment (without u knowing), and you have a police escort waiting for you the next friday.

RE: Counter-offer

(OP)
She took the counter offer.  She said that money was her only reason to leave.

RE: Counter-offer

So, why did she not want them to counter-offer?

RE: Counter-offer

How can it have been "just the money"?

She was on $82k and was going to give up that and the 10 years "tenure" and accumulated benefits for $87k.

The $87k would stay that for a year but presumably the $82k would have been subject to a 3-4% increase during the year.
That leaves a marginal increase and a very short term gain unless there were some other benefits or expectations as well since it is not going to be much more than a year before she is back to par with her old job.
 
Changing jobs always requires some consideration and it also means understanding your own motives and objectives. If you are going to go for the money then you should have some understanding of what is an acceptable increase, not just for now but for the future.

We all know that the longer you stay in one job, that year-on-year you slip toward the bottom quartile salary and rewards for the job.
 
Usually we should expect better rewards/career progression to come from:
  • A good pay rise for the same job with current employer. A virtual impossibility except using the counter-offer scenario. Very very risky.
  • Change jobs (like for like) for 10% or better plus no loss of benefits (trade losses for better wages);very safe and that 10 years service can be used to demonstrate stability and loyalty (that you are a long term patsy and they will greatly benefit in the future when they get you back down in the lowest quartile again; i.e. you are a good long term risk).
  • internal promotion for whatever you can get. Usually this is not much and these days it is often just more responsibility and more workload for a nominal amount extra and sometimes, with "restructuring" it is more jobs for the same money and no apparent promotion as you take on the jobs of those "let go" in addition to your own. A very poor outcome.
  • The best of all, and used frequently enough is how bad managers get to be even worse CEOs before being retired with Golden handshakes; promotion to a new employer for wheelbarrows full of the stuff.
So, is she being honest with herself? Was it really the money or was she dissatisfied with something and has just assumed it was the money without really analysing her dissatisfaction?

If it was just the money then it was not a very successful exercise to go out and get an $87k replacement for $82k plus 3-4% annual adjustment. One or two years and she is no better off.

Of all counter-offer acceptance scenarios, this is one with more than the usual risks.

Here, the employer will already be thinking $82k to $97k is a big step and he may be regretting that, he will certainly be looking for his money's worth and he may even be looking for a way out.

But the truth has a nasty way of surfacing when you don't want it to.
I know one guy who was offered a new job with his original employer, then found a much better job elsewhere and grabbed it. He hadn't even started on the new job with the old employer. However, the old employer was so upset by this that he immediately indulged in some character assassination and wrote to the new employer.

So just consider that prospective employer and old employer could communicate with each other and how it would be if in this case the employer discovers he has been finessed.




JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Counter-offer

3
"Finessed" is one way to put it.

Bottom line is she lied and ended up with a raise.  If I were her boss I would be pissed if I found out.

RE: Counter-offer

"However, the old employer was so upset by this that he immediately indulged in some character assassination and wrote to the new employer."

I often think about this when I leave a company, but wont the new company see this as like an ex girl/boy friend mouthing off?  If the employee is so bad, wouldent the old manager try to get rid of him by palming him off to sombody else?

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Counter-offer

Hmmm,
The way this played out - lied about the offer, and then accepting a counter-offer based on the lie - moves from "How to Improve Myself" to "Ethics"

RE: Counter-offer

(OP)
"The way this played out - lied about the offer, and then accepting a counter-offer based on the lie - moves from "How to Improve Myself" to "Ethics""

Question:  If one day prior to her handing in her two weeks notice, she asked her boss "how much are you willing to pay me to keep me employed here" and her boss replied "your current salary", is her boss lying / being ethical?

RE: Counter-offer

So wait a second, who is more un-ethical, the employee who had to lie to get a bigger salary or the boss who is paying slave wages?

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Counter-offer

82K per year is slave wages?
Good one.

Re-read the thread.  She did not want a counter offer, so she lied about the offer.

RE: Counter-offer

...but accepted the resulting counter offer....


JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Counter-offer

Where can I apply for this job with slave wadges?

RE: Counter-offer

Question:  If one day prior to her handing in her two weeks notice, she asked her boss "how much are you willing to pay me to keep me employed here" and her boss replied "your current salary", is her boss lying / being ethical?

No, the boss's actions are completely unethical

Questions: So, why does she want to keep working for an unethical boss? Why stoop to his level of unethical behaviour by lying? Why put yourself in a situation where you can be let go after a major project (as spongebob and others perfectly described)? Keeping in mind the boss was not willing to keep her a few weeks ago, and now he has spontaneously changed his mind.

RE: Counter-offer

On rethinking, I'm not sure this is unethical.  It's only because her intent was not to garner a higher raise that it seems unethical to accept it anyway.

If this is unethical, then almost every pay raise negotiation I have been in has been unethical.

How would it go if you told the truth every time your boss, or new employer asked you how much you think you are worth?  Or how much it would take for you to not move to a competitor?

It's like going in to a car dealership that has a car for sale for $25,000 and saying "I'm not paying a dime over 20K for this car" and walking out with a deal for 22K.  Is that a lie?

RE: Counter-offer

:P...sorry trying to be cynical.  I guess what I tried to say was that if she made $82K and the boss knew all this time she was worth $97K, that's a delta of $15K.  So the boss new he was underpaying the person by a substantial amount of money.  So which is more unethical?  The person lieing about the new company's offer or the boss that for the past ten years knew she was actuall worth more, but never told her?  My pick would be the latter.  The boss took advantage of her, getting more work with less pay.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

RE: Counter-offer

Maybe the boss just doesn't know what is a good salary according to the market and then when he heard that she was "suppose" to get $94K then he didn't verify if it's true and decided it was better to pay her more that to try to find somebody else.

I think that every boss obviously what to pay less for his employee but he will also try to stay competitive to the market so that he doesn't lose good workers.

After 10 years at the same place how can you know how much you are worth? You have to talk to other people that do the same thing as you are, or you have to send resume to see what kind of offer you can have, maybe for some professions there are salary ladder already in place but what if there are not?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but what I'm trying to say is that a lot of times the salary is accorded regarding some specific quality of each person so it comes down to it as a negociation and everybody that I know that is good at negociation is not always telling the truth or at least not ALL the truth.

Of course if I was her boss and knew that she lied about the $94K so that I give her $97k I too would be pissed off and would see her in a negative way.

If I were in her shoe I think that how MedicinEng proposed to negotiate for less by being transparent would have been a lot better for my conscious.

The bottom line is that, as some other mentionned, it cannot be just about the money and I'm pretty sure that even with a salary of $97K in six months she will still want to be out of there. Unless there is something that we don't know.

Have a nice day

Patrick

RE: Counter-offer

Hello Patrick,

You make several good points. I just want to add one thing to your comment:

"Maybe the boss just doesn't know what is a good salary according to the market."

In my honest opinion, a good boss should know what is a good salary according to the market with respect to the people that work for him.

You make a great point, in saying that the boss maybe was not deliberately underpaying the employee; however, if he did not realize this, he was not doing his homework.

That boss is not the sort of person I would like to work for, but I really can only speak for myself.

Thanks for your insights.

RE: Counter-offer

I agree with you Josephv but I'm still wondering how do you get those homework done? What kind of source is there so that you know what is a good salary? Because I may soon find myself hiring someone in the same field as I am and other than some job offer that I turned down and others that I accepted I don't really know what is considered an average salary. Maybe I could call a few people that I know who have the same qualification that would tell me their salary but I can't call competitors to know how much they are giving for their people.

Maybe I should start a thread about this but I will save it for later :)

Patrick

RE: Counter-offer

good point, Patrick...

Since this thread and a few others do touch upon salary, I created a new thread called "Salary information for engineers" in the "How to Improve Myself ..." forum in order to share salary data. The one I was using is the Professional Engineers Ontario survey (which was free, but now they charge for it... oy).

RE: Counter-offer

ok, I created the thread in the "overcoming obstacles..." forum... not sure why, but I do know I need coffee...

RE: Counter-offer

In the Aviation Field, Trade Publications have an annual Salaries edition.
Type of Company, type of Job, Location.
i.e.: Repair Station, Engineer, Southwest USA

I'll bet most industries have somewhere to look to get the current pay scales.

Rerig

RE: Counter-offer

Interesting thread...

The concept of a company counter-offering simply over money is deporable to me.  It fosters ill-will within the department as you are resentful that you were not properly valued by the company, the company will expect more performance for their buck, and finally your coworkers might be resentful over the raise which you extracted.  If taking a counter-offer strictly for money, one should be looking for a new job within 6 months anyways.


jetmaker

RE: Counter-offer

Previous job I had, a co-worker quit outright because of the incompetence of management. Long story short, they re-hired him with a large (found out later it was ~25%) raise.  He lasted another 6 months before he quit again.  

I've seen it twice where people quit but were enticed to come back. In both cases, the people weren't happy.
I've seen more than a dozen people quit and go to new jobs.  In every single case, the people were better off in the new job.

-
Aercoustics.com

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