Counter-offer
Counter-offer
(OP)
I know this guy... who knows this girl... She has worked for her current employer for 10yrs and pulls 82K/yr. She accepted an offer from another company for 87K/yr. Before her 2 week notice was up, her boss called her into his office. "Would you mind telling me what your offer was", he asked. She didn't want them to counter offer, so she lied and said 94K/yr. To her surprise, they countered with 97K/yr.
First off, good for her! Now, what does she do? Thoughts?
First off, good for her! Now, what does she do? Thoughts?





RE: Counter-offer
Either way she needs to make a choice as her "bluff" got called.
When I left my first employer, the offered to immediately match the new offer. My reasons for leaving went beyond salary so I declined. The choice is ultimately hers.
Regards,
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There is also a lot more information that needs to be weighed. Do other employees know that she was going to leave? If so, would they treat her differently if she stayed? Is she sure that her boss isn't trying to make sure that he/she decides when she will leave, and not leave it up to her? Unfortunately in this world we live in, these are things that need to be contemplated.
Ultimately, compare the reasons to leave to the reasons to stay. Whatever weighs heavier--there's your decision.
Good luck either way.
Regards,
V
Mechanical Engineer
"When I am working on a problem, I do not think of beauty, but when I've finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
RE: Counter-offer
To think they have been paying 82 for a job that is worth 97 would really tick me off. You would then start to ask how many years of salary have you lost because of being underpaid and I would be livid.
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You said she did not want them to counter-offer so she told them 94K, well, there is a reason she did not want them to counter-offer.
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Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
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As also pointed out, yes it is insulting that they were paying $82K and only when threatening to leave is the job worth $97K and this needs to be seriously considered. On top of that, is there the chance for retaliation when the next round of layoffs comes?
Personally, once I have decided to leave a place and accepted an offer with a new a company I stick with my decision.
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Why was she leaving, if just money and she doesn't think it will come back to bight her then sure stay (although I tend to feel some sympathy for what JamesBarlow says).
If there are other reasons for leaving, or it may come back and bight her at the next layoffs etc then maybe best to go now.
I think the telling thing is: "She didn't want them to counter offer, so she lied and said 94K/yr". So I'd guess there are other reasons for leaving and as others said, while money may patch this up for a while in a few months she'll be back to where she was, just a little more cash in the bank!
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
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Even then, in the hands of the right lawyer, that contract is worth less than the paper it's written on, so it still would be hard to come back.
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No kidding, I fought for 3 years with a previous employer to get 2 and 3% raises. I got fed up and left, on the way out the door they countered with an 18% raise.
Fortunetly it wasn't to far off the position I was moving to so I got to say: If I'm worth another 18% now, I was worth 18% more during rate review 3 months ago when you offered me 2%.
I also took the opportunity to tell everyone I left behind about the last minute offer. Several tendered resignations within weeks of mine just for the raise... and they got it.
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(I know, I know, don't burn bridges, act proffesionally...)
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
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Thanks monkeydog
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KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
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If so, they're just showing you even more how underpaid you were.
It's fun to see companies like that operate and implode. Neglect your employees at your own peril. At the last company I worked for my group (3 engineers, 3 engineering techs, and a lab tech) was by far the largest revenue generator for the company. We had just come off of a 2 year development cycle for a product that was a customer hit and was generating contracts left and right and was going to generate revenues far in excess of our operating and production costs. At raise/bonus time, the development team who had suffered 2.5% or so raises for two years got a nice fat 7% raise as a reward for the success. At that point, most of us on the team still hadn't caught up with three years of inflation, and we'd delivered a product that was going to save the company (which hadn't turned a profit in ten years). A slap in the face is what we got for enduring poor raises and still delivering a product which by all measurements was a stunning success. Then the hemorrhage started.
On January 1 of the year the group imploded, all 7 of us that had developed the product were still there. I lasted the longest out of those who left because I had obligations outside the company after completion of which I was leaving the area, so there was no sense in looking elsewhere. On the day I left, I was the last degreed engineer in the group and there was only 1 other member of the original development group left. At this point, orders had been placed, but the product had yet to go into production due to the nature of the product and purchasing cycles. We were still in the tooling phase.
All for the want of a few decent raises and pats on the back for success, one of the finest teams I've ever had the privilege of working with evaporated, leaving the company high and dry in the middle of tooling up and preparation for production on a brand new product.
From what I hear, the product has finally turned the company around, and it's making a profit. I also hear stories of five figure bonuses being given, so it appears that lessons have been learned. I just wish it didn't take a great development team getting torn apart to do it.
RE: Counter-offer
We were invariably asked what the company could do to keep us when we'd give our notices and to a man, we all replied "nothing". We knew that if we accepted any counteroffer, it would likely be a one-time band-aid fix until the company could find someone to replace us. More money, a better office, better facilities, what have you will not repair the core problems and trust issues that drove us all to look elsewhere.
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Weeks ago? It's been 4 years :)
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She needs to be upfront with her original boss and explain that she wasn't leaving for the money (but stay with the $94k for the moment).
If this is a resolvable problem, then think carefully about staying but think carefully about what salary she should stay for.
$97k sounds like an impulse that could haunt both players. But get the problem resolved and stay for $87-90k then the boss will feel real happy and hre will feel obligated and not blackmailed.
There is always a problem how to evaluate a counter offer. Is it impulse to be regretted later? Is it a fair reflection of what the job is worth to them? What is a fair rate for the job? Do they just want to keep you while they look for someone else? Will they want their moneys worth back again? how will you fare in future years, will they claw it back year by year?
Bluff called, play the cards out.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Counter-offer
If the reason for changing companies was primarily salary in the first place, then she should have asked for a raise.
If the current company won't give a person a raise until they are walking out the door, I'd say "too little too late". While this is a common attitude company managers, it just doesn't sit well with me (why reward the folks who try to leave, as opposed to the folks who are loyal, so-to-speak).
If you already negotiated and accepted an offer at another company, I don't consider it ethical to withdraw you acceptance, unless something extreme happened.
RE: Counter-offer
If she accepts the new counter offer she will have done so having lied about the original offer.
I would guess that if neither company would view her very highly if they knew the truth and if they find out it could come back to bite her. Whilst choosing to live by the sword and die by the sword might bring short term or even long term gain it is not a good way to do business.
Personally I would be honest and true to my word and treat the company in the same way as I would want them to treat me.
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good luck and let us know how it went.
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I see my post implies that the counter offer should be considered and it shouldn't. I have said as much in other threads but didn't say it here.
Well, I guess I got sidetracked by the reason for changing jobs after 10 years for such a small raise.
So no, I don't advocate taking the counter offer but having received such a good counter offer the employer does deserve to know the real reason for leaving (unless he's it, in which case, it won't do any good saying it.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Counter-offer
You should never, ever take a counter. The same reason you are leaving will most likely still be there down the road.
Was that your raise for the next few years? Might be.
Everyone will find out since you most likely mentioned it to a few people. Even friends talk and might let something slip unintentionally. It will never be the same.
Also, you have just shown you are disloyal. If you accept, they will be holding all the cards. You have nothing to negotiate with if things turn bad in a few months, or you realize that the person they just hired, and you are training, is your replacement.
I have never taken one. I don't even let it get that far anymore. They start to say "is there anything..." No! ;)
Occasionally I have quit over money. But even if they would of countered with more I would say no. Guaranteed that if the company needs to downsize you are the first they are gonna look at.
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Be honest to your future employer and tell him:"My actual company counter offered 97k. I want to accept your offer but the gap is quite big. Can we reach an agreement say, 90k now and a raise to 97k in 6 months time?"
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Fast forward three months. The DAY AFTER that major project I mentioned before was finished, my boss came to my desk and said "Bob, I need to speak to you" I could tell by his tone and the look on his face that it wasn't going to be good. We went in his office and he closed the door. I nearly fell over when he laid it on me. I was being accused of stealing from the company. When I asked who had made the accusation, he would not divulge their name or even what led them/him to think I was stealing. He had absolutely no proof that I had even done anything wrong. I tried to talk my way out of it, but it went nowhere. Without any idea of why I was being accused or even being given a chance to clear my name I was fired on the spot. I packed up my belongings and security escorted me out of the building. The whole thing reeked of BS to me. I filed a claim for unemployment but it was denied since I didn't get a pink slip. I threatened to sue my former employer and then all of a sudden the decided to pay my unemployment claim.
You see the thing you need to realize is that your boss is NOT your friend. He is acting in his own/the company's' best interest. When you give your notice, you are branded as "not being a team player". As engineers we play key roles in an organization, and when one of us leaves, it can leave the boss high and dry when there is a lot of work to be done, and ultimately it is his head that will roll if the project you are leaving behind is screwed up due to your departure. He's not making a counter offer out of the goodness of his heart, he's stalling your departure until he can find a more convenient time to can you.
Maybe you won't be fired like I was, but I know several others who played the counter offer game and the stigma haunted them for years.
On another level, unless money was the ONLY issue for leaving, the things you don't like about your job aren't going to magically go away once you accept the counter offer.
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KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
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She was on $82k and was going to give up that and the 10 years "tenure" and accumulated benefits for $87k.
The $87k would stay that for a year but presumably the $82k would have been subject to a 3-4% increase during the year.
That leaves a marginal increase and a very short term gain unless there were some other benefits or expectations as well since it is not going to be much more than a year before she is back to par with her old job.
Changing jobs always requires some consideration and it also means understanding your own motives and objectives. If you are going to go for the money then you should have some understanding of what is an acceptable increase, not just for now but for the future.
We all know that the longer you stay in one job, that year-on-year you slip toward the bottom quartile salary and rewards for the job.
Usually we should expect better rewards/career progression to come from:
- A good pay rise for the same job with current employer. A virtual impossibility except using the counter-offer scenario. Very very risky.
- Change jobs (like for like) for 10% or better plus no loss of benefits (trade losses for better wages);very safe and that 10 years service can be used to demonstrate stability and loyalty (that you are a long term patsy and they will greatly benefit in the future when they get you back down in the lowest quartile again; i.e. you are a good long term risk).
- internal promotion for whatever you can get. Usually this is not much and these days it is often just more responsibility and more workload for a nominal amount extra and sometimes, with "restructuring" it is more jobs for the same money and no apparent promotion as you take on the jobs of those "let go" in addition to your own. A very poor outcome.
- The best of all, and used frequently enough is how bad managers get to be even worse CEOs before being retired with Golden handshakes; promotion to a new employer for wheelbarrows full of the stuff.
So, is she being honest with herself? Was it really the money or was she dissatisfied with something and has just assumed it was the money without really analysing her dissatisfaction?If it was just the money then it was not a very successful exercise to go out and get an $87k replacement for $82k plus 3-4% annual adjustment. One or two years and she is no better off.
Of all counter-offer acceptance scenarios, this is one with more than the usual risks.
Here, the employer will already be thinking $82k to $97k is a big step and he may be regretting that, he will certainly be looking for his money's worth and he may even be looking for a way out.
But the truth has a nasty way of surfacing when you don't want it to.
I know one guy who was offered a new job with his original employer, then found a much better job elsewhere and grabbed it. He hadn't even started on the new job with the old employer. However, the old employer was so upset by this that he immediately indulged in some character assassination and wrote to the new employer.
So just consider that prospective employer and old employer could communicate with each other and how it would be if in this case the employer discovers he has been finessed.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
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Bottom line is she lied and ended up with a raise. If I were her boss I would be pissed if I found out.
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I often think about this when I leave a company, but wont the new company see this as like an ex girl/boy friend mouthing off? If the employee is so bad, wouldent the old manager try to get rid of him by palming him off to sombody else?
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Counter-offer
The way this played out - lied about the offer, and then accepting a counter-offer based on the lie - moves from "How to Improve Myself" to "Ethics"
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Question: If one day prior to her handing in her two weeks notice, she asked her boss "how much are you willing to pay me to keep me employed here" and her boss replied "your current salary", is her boss lying / being ethical?
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Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
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Good one.
Re-read the thread. She did not want a counter offer, so she lied about the offer.
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JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
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No, the boss's actions are completely unethical
Questions: So, why does she want to keep working for an unethical boss? Why stoop to his level of unethical behaviour by lying? Why put yourself in a situation where you can be let go after a major project (as spongebob and others perfectly described)? Keeping in mind the boss was not willing to keep her a few weeks ago, and now he has spontaneously changed his mind.
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If this is unethical, then almost every pay raise negotiation I have been in has been unethical.
How would it go if you told the truth every time your boss, or new employer asked you how much you think you are worth? Or how much it would take for you to not move to a competitor?
It's like going in to a car dealership that has a car for sale for $25,000 and saying "I'm not paying a dime over 20K for this car" and walking out with a deal for 22K. Is that a lie?
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Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
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I think that every boss obviously what to pay less for his employee but he will also try to stay competitive to the market so that he doesn't lose good workers.
After 10 years at the same place how can you know how much you are worth? You have to talk to other people that do the same thing as you are, or you have to send resume to see what kind of offer you can have, maybe for some professions there are salary ladder already in place but what if there are not?
Please correct me if I'm wrong but what I'm trying to say is that a lot of times the salary is accorded regarding some specific quality of each person so it comes down to it as a negociation and everybody that I know that is good at negociation is not always telling the truth or at least not ALL the truth.
Of course if I was her boss and knew that she lied about the $94K so that I give her $97k I too would be pissed off and would see her in a negative way.
If I were in her shoe I think that how MedicinEng proposed to negotiate for less by being transparent would have been a lot better for my conscious.
The bottom line is that, as some other mentionned, it cannot be just about the money and I'm pretty sure that even with a salary of $97K in six months she will still want to be out of there. Unless there is something that we don't know.
Have a nice day
Patrick
RE: Counter-offer
You make several good points. I just want to add one thing to your comment:
"Maybe the boss just doesn't know what is a good salary according to the market."
In my honest opinion, a good boss should know what is a good salary according to the market with respect to the people that work for him.
You make a great point, in saying that the boss maybe was not deliberately underpaying the employee; however, if he did not realize this, he was not doing his homework.
That boss is not the sort of person I would like to work for, but I really can only speak for myself.
Thanks for your insights.
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Maybe I should start a thread about this but I will save it for later :)
Patrick
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Since this thread and a few others do touch upon salary, I created a new thread called "Salary information for engineers" in the "How to Improve Myself ..." forum in order to share salary data. The one I was using is the Professional Engineers Ontario survey (which was free, but now they charge for it... oy).
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Type of Company, type of Job, Location.
i.e.: Repair Station, Engineer, Southwest USA
I'll bet most industries have somewhere to look to get the current pay scales.
Rerig
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The concept of a company counter-offering simply over money is deporable to me. It fosters ill-will within the department as you are resentful that you were not properly valued by the company, the company will expect more performance for their buck, and finally your coworkers might be resentful over the raise which you extracted. If taking a counter-offer strictly for money, one should be looking for a new job within 6 months anyways.
jetmaker
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I've seen it twice where people quit but were enticed to come back. In both cases, the people weren't happy.
I've seen more than a dozen people quit and go to new jobs. In every single case, the people were better off in the new job.
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