anti-freeze loop
anti-freeze loop
(OP)
I am working on a commercial shopping center in the las vegas area that was built in 1992. The fire sprinkler system is a wet system with no anti-freeze loop for the exterior heads. Each head is located by a recessed light. Did they have a different requirement for exterior heads in 1992. I cannot believe that the fire inspector would have accepted this is it was not legal in 1992. Does the exterior lighting provide warmth to keep the attic space approximately 24" above 40 degrees. I would appreciate knowledge on this subject. Mike





RE: anti-freeze loop
Here in Phoenix, we run piping exposed outside frequently. Yes, it does drop below 32°F here, but often, not long enough to cause a freeze in the system. The only ones that are really a problem are the guages with 1/4" piping outside. Those will freeze. Not often do the drops or branch lines freeze.
Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC
RE: anti-freeze loop
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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too
Not ALL Sprinkler Systems Are Created Equal! An Inadequate Sprinkler Design Is JUST As Bad As A Nonsprinklered Building!! When Occupancies Change So Should The Sprinkler System. See NFPA 25, 2002, Edition, Section 4.1.5, 4.1.6 & 4.1.6.1.
RE: anti-freeze loop
RE: anti-freeze loop
Yea who ever did the inspection in 1992 they blew it! I am sure this has never happen in the past and will never happen again...
Now that u found it put in writing what needs to be done to the owner to cover your butt in case it freezes and some insurance company wants you to pay for the water damage years from now.
****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too
Not ALL Sprinkler Systems Are Created Equal! An Inadequate Sprinkler Design Is JUST As Bad As A Nonsprinklered Building!! When Occupancies Change So Should The Sprinkler System. See NFPA 25, 2002, Edition, Section 4.1.5, 4.1.6 & 4.1.6.1.
RE: anti-freeze loop
The only requirement is to protect the pipe to 40 F, 13 does not say you SHALL do it this way.
RE: anti-freeze loop
Well, I argued that I doubted all these building owners were actively making that decision - more like that is what they got. We ended up paying a change order to make them dry heads.
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: anti-freeze loop
RE: anti-freeze loop
If someone proved it should maintain the heat or the owner said he would provide heat or accept that the pipe will not freeze, than IT MEETS CODE.
NFPA 13 does not require how pipe will be protected it gives various ways to do it.
RE: anti-freeze loop
When a water based fire protection system is exposed to freezing temperatures, the system components should be protected to prevent ice plugs as well as broken pipes and/or damaged sprinkler heads. The fact that the system piping or sprinkler heads are not damaged during cold weather, does not mean everything is OK. If the system piping has ice plugs, it is impaired and will not function as designed during a true fire emergency. I would bet there are thousands of systems in America which have ice plugs every year........many do not burst, but would probably not operate during a fire incident on a cold winter night.
Building owners (and insurance companies for that matter) have a false sense of security and have no idea that the systems are impaired.
By the way.......if you know the system does not meet NFPA code (lack of reliable heat source to maintain 40F), I suggest that you discuss the issue with your customer and make sure you notify the building owner in writing to make sure they are fully aware of the potential consequences.
RE: anti-freeze loop
RE: anti-freeze loop
Being from the northern great lakes region I know what minus zero temperatures can do and I know broken sprinklers can do millions of dollars in damages.
I am constantly amazed the risks sprinkler contractors will take to "save" a customer $2000 by not installing an anti-freeze or dry system in certain areas but around here "it never gets cold enough to freeze".
I got news for them. Valdosta, Georgia the highest recorded temperature was 108°F in 1927. On average, the coolest month is January. The lowest recorded temperature was 2°F in 1899.
You get 2 degrees for 12 hours and you will have severe troubles. Sure, hasn't happened since 1899 but it has happened and the good book doesn't tell me it won't come next January.
We get 2 degrees around here and I'll have enough repair work to keep me busy for the next year.
For Las Vegas the lowest recorded temperature was 0°F in 1963. At zero it is going to freeze and while that zero record might not happen for a long time to come as sure as the sun rises you can be sure it will be broken again someday. Maybe next January.
I wouldn't want to do it unless I got a PE to give me a letter, signed and sealed, stating he did a heat study and it wouldn't freeze. I don't think any of you PE's the frequent here would give such a letter so why should I take the risk?
Completed operations insurance for sprinkler companies is high to begin with, it's getting harder to obtain and if you ask any of them their biggest loss is water damage resulting from "improperly installed sprinklers".
I don't get it. Why take the risk when there isn't anything in it for you but work on a stinking job worth only a few thousand to begin with?
To the defense of inspector's and fire officials I don't think it should be their call as to what kind of system you install. They don't perform heat studies, precious few are professional engineers and non of them have the experience installing companies and layout technicians have.
There's a project down here the installation company took a bet their pipe would never freeze. It might not but the lowest recorded temperature was 30 below freezing in 1985. I'm just watching because IF it ever does freeze it's going to cause millions and millions in damages. In one area they have three original oil paintings that are valued over $2 million. Someone would probably notice the black spatter of rusty sprinkler water.....
Sorry I got carried away but it is important our industry stop taking unnecessary risks. You got enough of them without asking for more.
RE: anti-freeze loop
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: anti-freeze loop
But it isn't the owner that's taking the chance. The sprinkler contractor will be paraded as the "expert", by simple virtue of having obtained a state license which says he is qualified to install sprinklers, by the plaintiffs attorney.
The property owner may be the savviest fella on planet earth understanding everything should the sprinkler contractor present him with an opportunity to save a buck. Upon suffering a financial loss the owners IQ will drop by 80 points moving him into the moron class. The "experts" of the sprinkler company will be shown to have taken unfair advantage of the ignorance of an average Joe. Plaintiff will call in a FPE as an expert witness which will spell trouble for the sprinkler company "expert".
RE: anti-freeze loop
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com