Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
(OP)
I am collaborating on a book tentatively entitled "Management by Disaster." This relates to the chapter on ethics. In facility management there is a tendency to direct plant resources and contractor connections towards personal gain.
An electrical engineer described a situation where the plant manager of a power plant had a large metal shed erected on his personal property at plant expense. Plant personnel were involved in the erection. Can you top this?
An electrical engineer described a situation where the plant manager of a power plant had a large metal shed erected on his personal property at plant expense. Plant personnel were involved in the erection. Can you top this?





RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
thats the best one I know of.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
There was the one about ... I guess I'd better not.
Good luck with getting something that can be published and is adequately documented to protect you from the lawyers.
David
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Our agency has a "fraud awareness" film they show us in which they mention several cases of employees making inappropriate use of agency resources. My favorite was the guy who (if memory serves) used an agency truck to drive agency materials home and build himself a BBQ pit. Or maybe the guy who had a contractor deliver construction materials to his house. (The film didn't come with a "do not talk about this stuff" warning so I figure I can talk about it.)
Hg
(*)Cases like that are why, in my agency, it's very hard to get approval to attend out-of-state (never mind out-of-country) conferences at all, and even harder to get approval for multiple people. First class not even contemplated.
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
The wosrt was a huge project that went bad. It went from $15MM to $45MM. In the end the FBI came in and two people are serving time for interstate transportation of stolen goods. Fake invoices, overall very bad management.
The kicker is that when the business group presented the project, engineering said it won't work and the estimate was way short. They went to the President of the company and he said go. The business group hired their own engineers and started the project. When it was at $30MKM, they called for help. when engineering went in it was too late.
The company was bought out as is was going under (it was more than this one project, but several with the same thread, the business groups thought they knew more than the engineers).
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Had all kinds of people using the company's gas tank - plumbers, electricians, etc. Gas was expensive back then - relatively!!
Built himnself a complete house!!
Got caught - went to jail!!
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Question: Is that actually unethical, if it's THE owner (not AN owner, not an employee)?
Seems like the biggest question would be tax liability for the benefit received.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
And that's just ONE of many cover-ups and misrepresentations. I don't work for him any more, and he doesn't work for the company he was with at the time of this incident. He now owns yet another company.
Ethics wasn't in his vocabulary.
old field guy
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I think that's a bit broad-fraud can be found in any function that has access to resources.
My favorite: NYC in the 70s. Contractor hired to install new sewer main. City inspector on job site. All seems well. Until people start having trouble with sewer lines backing up. Investigation reveals brand new sewer manholes. No sewer.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
The behavior you described is why I use embossing seals or rubber stamps with red ink.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Of course, with modern scanners and copiers, the ink colour and embossing are only of value to you in denial of having stamped something.
Without prior experience the recipient of any such drawing is quite likely not able to detect a fraud even if it is in black and white and not embossed.
The question is, if that is why you did it, have you had some experience of this before? Some of us wait till the horse has bolted before taking unusual steps.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
http://ww
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Is anything more unethical than theft, or does theft only become unethical if large sums of money are involved?
Now who on here has never done that?
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Hg
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
He recommended bringing in a 'different firm' to complete the work, at extra cost, instead of having the existing company fix it. Come to find out the 'different firm' was flying him to Mexico for hunting trips.
He was caught, fired, and ended up working for this very same 'different firm'.
______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Taking breaks 5 minutes longer than allotted, taking a few pens off the company's shelf are unethical yet forgivable. Accusing others of unethical behavior for such minor incidents is petty in my opinion. Severely unethical behavior is somewhat controlled by the legal system but even then not always caught.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
The parts shipped, division made its shipments for the month. Next month, the RAMs started coming back in droves.
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
After some tornado damage, the company GM went around the facility with an ice pick to "insure" that new a/c would be included with the repairs.
Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare. - Robert Hunter
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
My previous posting has bad parts being shipped to wherever; some of them could have wound up in equipment where the part failure might have resulted in damage to the equipment or its operators. That's got to be worse than someone getting free repairs on their house.
However, we also know of cases where no gross ethical violations occurred, only gross lapses in competence and judgement. The Kansas City Hyatt Regency walkway case is one such situation, where the contractor made changes to the design, which were not caught nor checked by the designer, thereby resulting in the walkway collapsing: http://en
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Ciao.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Just yesterday, I had our company travel agent book me the 6am flight next week instead of the 7am flight (the 7am flight was $400 more expensive). And I will use mass transit instead of a rental car to arrive at my hotel destination. A hotel, that is virtually across the street from where I will report to work for a few days.
I'm hearing from the 7am flight travelers and rental car enthusiast - that the hotel 30 miles out of the way of our work destination has a nicer free continental breakfast than the Holiday Inn I'm staying at.
Boy... I hope they don't bust me for making my personal to-do list on the company graph paper I lifted from the office before the trip...
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
The way I see it if I go down the pub with you, or anyone else for that matter and choose to buy you a beer that is my choice, I can easily afford to do so and the money is not an issue, if however whilst I go to the toilet you take the money from my wallet and buy me a drink I find that unethical. The amount of money is no different to that I would have paid anyway but one is unethical and one isn’t, at least in my opinion.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you just go the stationary store, and buy the pack of graph paper for your home/personal use?
As far as travel, some people choose to not get a rental car, and hotel close to where they are working as it is more convenient. I myself, when being inconvenienced by the business travel, sometimes choose the 6 am flight because it gives me a better chance of not missing my connection in Chicago (not because it is cheaper). I choose a rental car, because when I go out for dinner, the restaurant within walking distance of the hotel get’s old. I choose the hotel 30 minutes from where I will be working, because it is very close to the airport, and I only have to get up at 4:30 am to catch the 6:30 am flight out (Chicago theory).
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
For those who think its "ethical" to waste thousands upon thousands of dollars per year on travel expenses simply because its marginally more convienent and "approved", but take issue over a few dollars worth of paper being used for personal reasons... well... good luck out there! I'm sure the local McDonald's will always have positions open for squabbling managers who stare at the CCTV tapes busting employees for taking a biscuit out the door at the end of their shift...
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Lots of american companies have interlocking boards of directors and the control of things like salarys and bonuses is controlled by a very small group. The CEO of company A is on the board of company B and the CEO of company B is on the board of company A. And so on with company C,D,E etc. they give each other big pay checks and out rageous stock options.
If you work for a company where that's going on what's a few pens from the stock room?
There are a lot of stories in the WSJ and other publications of this kind of stuff. If you as a stock holder were robbed at gunpoint you would be outraged but these guys are remote from most of us and don't wear a mask and a gun.
There is a lot of research to show that the high pay doesn't correlate to stockholder wealth or company performance.
There are more CEO out there recieving 20, 30 40 and more millions of dollars per year for running poor performing companies. It makes stealing 80 k for a house like taking the change out of the "take a penny, leave a penny" box at 7-eleven. It's legal but how ethical is it?
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I am also familair with a case where an engineering firm was named in a lawsuit involving a project they had not designed. One of their good architectural clients was doing his own engineering on small projects then using sticky back to apply the engineering firm's P.E. seal to the drawings.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I can legally stamp a document but is it ethical to do so when I was not involved in it's creation? If nothing is wrong with the design, is there harm? It would be entirely legal in my jurisdiction. I just assume the responsibility if there was an error.
I find it easier to talk about legal issues as black and white. You meet the laws or you do not. I wish it was always that simple. In the case of ethical issues there are some that are black, some that are white, but it is all to common to be several shades of gray.
my 2 cents
EJL
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Further to this, the facilities manager that uses company resources (say a few hundred dollars) to build his tool shed, is not in the same league of unethical behaviour as a company and CEO that steal billions out of their customers pockets. Or certain companies that are responsible for several health problems and even deaths around the world.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Another recent incident involved a man who operated a foundation repair business. He was lifting a house off its foundation so the foundation could be replaced. He told the homeowners that the lifting procedures were all professionally engineered by him. Several days after the home had been lifted, it collapsed into the open excavation below the house. To make matters worse, he didn't have insurance to cover the damage to the home.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
2 Electrical Planners set themselves up a contracting business
Then, from their "day-job" let contracts to themselves.
To really do a "good" job of it, the quoted prices included materials
The PO was sent out.
However, they would buy the materials from inside the "day-job" but also send in a delivery docket from the side-job, effectively the Company bought the material twice.Most [if not all] of the work on-site work would be carried out by the on-site guys under the company work order system.
They cashed up on materials and labour costs.
Needless to say since I am telling this story they were cautgh big-time.
ASM
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Customer asked for prototypes of a stamped sheetmetal assembly. Fairly complex, more than just brake-bress folds. Key customer, high profile project.
We get two quotes, one from trusted never-fail source and one from untried source. Untried source comes in 40% less than trusted source. Despite my cautions that we need these parts right at any cost, we went with the cheaper source.
Parts were late, made from poor material, and dimensionally incorrect to the point of unusability. Rework to whip them into shape cost 2x the savings.
The kicker: sales had priced the project for the customer using the quote for the more expensive, trusted source.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Part of a group of companies is in trouble. The other, profitable companies are used to subsidise the ailing company.
As a consequence, no pay awards, redundancies and double working in the profitable company. No gain promotions, cut back on expenses and overheads.
For several years the employees (those that survive) are effectively "investing" in the survival of the weak company.
Then the market recovers and the ailing company recovers and is sold for £20-25million.
The money is shared out among the directors.
Not even a word of thanks to the employees and certainly no cash.
Legally, the directors are in the clear, they had a legal duty to the shareholders (mainly themselves).
Morally?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I started my engineering job and it soon became evident that this venture was sucking ALL the profits, not to mention people time, out of the engineering company. It was fine for everyone else as they would see the benefit if the new company took off, but meanwhile their was no raises, reductions in benefits, and no bonuses as the engineering company was "losing" money.
In the end the venture folded without ever bringing in any money and in the process everyone except the owner is now gone.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
These days this is believed to be uncommon. Investors learn of highway projects through any of a number of required sunshine requirements and they buy up the key R/W this way.
Our other ethical problem is a contractor buying off an inspector. It happens but I haven't heard any particular stories of this in some time.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I was struck dumb.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
How did you handle it? I've been in the same situation a few times (same guy every time)and I let it go. I couldn't think of a good way to handle it without sounding petty and making the company look bad. Now he has his own satellite office and company car. I'm still in my cube.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Whatever you do can be made to look petty and that it is you who have the problem, not the brown-noser. That's because they spend their entire lives with their noses .... er, spend their entire lives sucking up to the bosses, so they gain immunity.
I hope there is such a thing as divine retribution, or that he'll discover too late that the spirit comes back in some other life-form and that he will be a laboratory rat or something in his next 200 or so incarnations. But I'm not holding my breath.
I just made sure I put my own stamp on my work as much as possible, tried to pre-empt any of his little games and periodically did a reality check to make sure it really wasn't me.kept the amount of information/ideas etc that flowed to him to a minimum and put up with it till I could get out. (and when I did, made sure that HR knew something of my feelings, for all the good that would do).
However, I heard from some others that they'd made similar representations to HR including stating that they would never work for him if he got promoted (I think HR had a long list on that one).
But what do you do? Get another job? Sure, and first day on your new job you discover the new company is infested with Brown-nosers too? Or pray for a good manager to come along. Yep, it's a management problem. Inadequate managers love to have their egos stroked. Good managers are too smart for that but catch 22 is that good managers don't last long, they go up the tree fast or go to better companies.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
A couple of weeks later the slime was doing the same presentation to some Executive VP's and our VP (who had been primed by one of his direct reports who saw the first presentation) started asking a list of very technical questions that the slime simply couldn't begin to shuffle his way through. About half way through the list he turned to me and said "David, can you answer the question that [slime] is have so much difficulty with?" I could, and I answered the question on the table, went back to the previous 4 questions and answered them, finally I corrected an error in Slime's slides that cleared up a bunch. It was a glorious moment, the project was approved, Slime was moved to a less visible project, and shortly after that he quit.
It was the only time I ever saw someone get what they really deserved.
David
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I had the job of refurbishing executive row. I got competitive quotes on one element of the job, and the job went to a croney of the mgr of plant engineering. The material came in, and I had it stored temporarily in an unused loading dock.
There was a strange tag on the material. I called the mfr of the material, and the sales agent aquainted me with the principals on the purchase order. They were the mgr of plant engineering and his croney contractor. The strange company was a ghost company created to financially benefit the mgr of plant engineering and his croney.
I lost my job a day later. My phone must have been tapped. I found other employment thru an outplacing firm. My new boss kept asking why I left the company, and I tried to explain it away without rancour. As it turned out, I was a star performer. That didn't help when I lost my job.
Analyzing the events of the past, I decided to blow the whistle. I found out that the stuff hit the fan in a big way. The scoundrel plant engineering mgr ended up managing waste collection. Any regrets? None.
Keep the stories coming. Thank you.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
a) he wasn't involved in whatsoever;
b) he didn't review; and
c) he didn't have the technical background to properly review anyway.
The person who actually prepared the report was not a P.E.
Later, problems did come up with the project and questions were asked. The V.P. ended up firing the person who did the report because of the mistakes made (which cost quite a bit to fix).
-
Aercoustics.com
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
The catch is that the fired person was presumably also involved in an ethics violation, as in practicing without a license.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I'd get off that high horse.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
The person writing the report should have been under the "responsible charge" of the supervising PE. Since he wasn't a PE, he would not necessarily know that his supervisor was unqualified to stamp his work.
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Zdas, you must have done something really wonderful to deserve a karma warm-fuzzy like that.
The manager that plagiarized my work had his just desserts, he got promoted up and sideways, to a dead-end useless job. He interviewed me to come and work in his department, I had trouble keeping a straight face. Even more trouble when the only other employee working with him was this kinda ugly gal who had really hairy legs. Found out later from my wife (who'd been working there a year before me) that this gal used to be a guy...same guy who won a lawsuit that forced the company health care plan to pay for his operation(s)...and to provide a private bathroom for him/her (the boys didn't want her in their john, the gals didn't want him in theirs).
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Now that is a really unusual story.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
The memory of the hair standing up on the back of my neck (can you say "creep me out"?) when my wife clued me in still remains...
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I don't recall whether this person actually sued for the reimbursement for the operation, but there certainly was a separate bathroom just for her at our company.
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I'm assuming that "signed off on" the item involved stamping it with a PE seal, although that's not actually stated. I'm assuming that it was stamped because it was required to be stamped, and not just for decoration. And if that was the case, a non-licensed engineer shouldn't have been allowed to write it unless under the supervision of a licensed engineer.
My point was that you can't very well ask somebody to illegally plan-stamp your work and then turn around and accuse them of unethical behavior for doing so.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
As stated, the V.P. was a P.E.
The junior's manager (who's a P.E.) should have been the one to review and sign off on the report but unfortunately was away and the deadline for the report got moved. The V.P. (the manager's boss) took it upon himself to sign off on the report and send it out.
"A "non-engineer" can write the report, but the PE should understand if before stamping, right?"
Absolutely. It's how we all learnt (hopefully). Else, how could any junior progress?
The reasoning that the PE should "understand" is because by stamping, he/she is taking legal responsibility for the technical accuracy of the document.
-
Aercoustics.com
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
By "non-engineer", do you mean someone who does not have his/her PE? It seems like that may be your meaning based on the context of your statement.
Just wondering...
V
Mechanical Engineer
"When I am working on a problem, I do not think of beauty, but when I've finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong."
- R. Buckminster Fuller
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Well - my two stories are really very small bikkies compared to what I have read above.
Story one.
I was asked to come in for an interview by a large firm for a job (nickel mine) that involved an outfall pipeline into the ocean. I had just completed an outfall pipeline into the ocean. During the hour interview, I was asked how I would approach this job. Job did not eventuate & no feed back.
I was asked to come in for an interview by a large firm (same firm as above) for a job that involved development of a townsite with a waste water treatment plant attached. I had just completed a townsite waste water treatment plant. During the hour interview, I was asked how I would approach this job. Job did not eventuate & no feed back.
The third time the firm approached me, I said 'no thanks' & they were very concerned that I did not appear to want to work for their firm. Funny that.
I have since been told that 'free' consulting advice is always available by finding a person with the necessary expertise, advertising a 'position' with heaps of money, (or approaching them), with the duties exactly the same as the 'expert'. I have been told that it is amazing what you can find out in one hour with a 'willing' participant. At almost negligible cost as well.
Story two.
I have on occasions supplied my CV for overseas projects, to large firms. Sometimes I do not receive any feedback (indeed not even an initial acknowledgement) about the application process. Some time later, imagine my surprise when (CV shown to me to indicate the caliber of the applicants) I saw what I consider to be my CV (with the name of another person).
I have since been told that this (trading of CV's) is not a rare incident, by any means.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
be glad that is all that was plagiarised.
At my last company they interviewed a guy, looked at his CV and gave him the job.
He turned up for his first day ok.
The second day he didn't arrive but the police did.
They had found him sleeping in a wharehouse or something and discovered he was an illegal immigrant. It transpires that he had none of the qualifications he claimed, it was not only someone else's CV but someone else's identity he had used.
Of course, it does beg the question, what sort of background check did they do, what references they took up and, of course, what on earth they talked about during the interviews that they didn't discover that he knew nothing consistent with the qualifications and experience shown in the CV.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Eventually, we managed to convince someone to swap the programmer for a EE, that we could at least use productively.
Unfortunately, he turned out to be a lump on a log... He likewise was hired by a college recruiter and the marched around until a department was forced to take him.
TTFN
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RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
It has become common for propective companies to ask to see original documents of your degree and PE license. This has happened several times with me. I agree with this; it will weed out the liars and scoundrels who falsify.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Only once or twice for me.....out of 43!!!
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
I agree but ----- Basically you are saying anyone can walk in and get an Engineering Seal.
How it's used and who checks it is another thing??
How many licenses have you ever checked?? And what did we do before the Internet --- nothing.....because it took weeks when they wanted written requests.
The one guy who did ask me had problems with a fake Notary Seal.
RE: Can You Top This? Extremes in Non-Ethical Behavior
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com