×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade
4

Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)
Please excuse my metric units (<--Canadian)

I am designing a foundation wall for a condo that is approximately 12m below grade at the base.  The condo foundation is stepped so the lowest portion of the wall is simply supported and has a clear span of ~2.5m.  Silty/Clay soil and the geotech determined equivilent fluid pressure distribution to be 15.7 kN/m3.  There is no option of using a lighter free draining granular backfill material since this portion of the foundation wall is right on the property line.

Ok, so here is the questions/problems.
 
Question 1.  Should I be using a dead load or live load safety factor? i.e. 1.25 or 1.5.  I am assuming this is considered dead load.

Question 2.  I am getting very very large shear from the lateral soil pressure.  ~310kN per meter of wall at the base.  Using the shear strength of concrete alone (30MPa) I would need a 26" thick wall!  My question is does the reinforcing mats on the inside and outside face of wall help with shear in this plane?  It seems like shear reinforcing should be perpendicular to the wall.   I have never put shear reinforcing in a wall, or needed it, so I am open for ideas.  I am hoping the mats help, although logically I don't see why they would.

Please help! any comments welcome.  (By the way there is no option to use buttresses in this case)

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

For question 1:

I would use the live load factor for the wall design, as the lateral soil load can change with time (water table elevation, seismically or vibration induced settling, etc.)

For question 2:

Surely the wall does not span the full 12 meters or 38 feet.  There have got to be interstitial floor diaphragms, hopefully concrete PT or CIP to shift the lateral forces to the perpendicular concrete walls thru diaphragm action.  A 12" wall with 9 or 10 foot story heights should be able to handle the lateral load from the soil with the floor diaphragms in place.  Am I missing something here?

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

For question 1, I would use your dead load factor for the hydrostatic component of the "equivalent fluid pressure", and your live load factor for the buoyant soil pressure component.  Thus, if I understand correctly that the geotech has defined your pressure as triangular with an "equivalent density" of 15.7 kN/m3, you would use an "ultimate density" of 1.25 x 10 + 1.5 x 5.7 = 21 kN/m3.  But I would check with the geotech to make sure that he has not already factored something.

Therefore, the pressure at the bottom of the 12 metre wall would be 12 x 21 = 252 kPa, and your base shear calculation is about right.  Therefore, the 660 thick wall sounds reasonable to me.

The connection at the wall to footing and wall to slab joints would bother me, and I would try to make the wall bear against the slab rather than depend on roughness, shear friction, etc.  But that is a contentious issue, and there was a recent long discussion in the Foundations forum which you may wish to read.   

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

Mike McCann, he mentioned the clear span of the wall was 2.5m.

JrStructuralEng, your shear per meter calc looks about right.  I'd make sure that the load the geotech gave you includes added water pressure.  I'd also use a live load factor on the soil load.  I'm not familiar with the code that uses 1.25 and 1.5 for load factors, but I'd guess if you looked through it, you'd find a factor for soil loads, and that it'd be similar to 1.5.

Your wall depth based on shear looks to be about right, based on the 310 kN at the base.  However, if you use the shear at a wall depth d from the base, you'll be able to reduce the wall thickness for shear significantly.  I've not a big fan of using shear reinforcing in a wall.  I like to reinforce for bending, and use the concrete strength only for shear.

You're not allowed suitable backfill for a wall that is 12 meters in the ground, so I wouldn't worry about having a "large" wall.  I don't think buttressing would be much of an economical improvement, because as it is the wall only spans 2.5 m.  To reduce that, you'd have buttresses every <2.5 m, with all the additional formwork and special reinforcing that goes with the buttresses.  

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)
Thanks for the responses,

hokie, I did read that article.  Are you suggesting the joints for the wall best placed at a slab support? (p.s. the wall is supported by piles with a slab on grade) Keep in mind this is a stepped foundation, so top of wall at most locations will tie into slab.

Aggie, you said "However, if you use the shear at a wall depth d from the base, you'll be able to reduce the wall thickness for shear significantly."  I don't understand what you mean by this?  Could you elaborate.

So...generally speaking it sounds like i'm on the right track, calculations wise.  If I end up needing shear reinforcing, because a 26" thick wall isn't possible (i.e cuts too much into parking space) what type of shear reinforcing is used in walls, how does it typically look or installed?  I've never seen it before in a wall or slab.  I am assuming it would end up being little bars that run perpendicular to the two main mats.  Any more thoughts or information on these topic is appreciated.  

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

Try use wall mount drainage fabric to lower the hydrostatic pressure. Shear reinforcement for wall, if required, is similar to that for the slab, see ACI for help.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

JrStructuralEng.  For a concrete beam, shear failure occurs at a 45 degree angle (or is assumed to), with the line of shear failure running from the bottom corner up and in at an angle of 45 degrees to the top of the beam.  Pull out a concrete design book, and you'll see a good picture of it.  This means that you check the maximum shear at the point where the 45 degree line hits the top of the beam.  Based on geometry, using a 45 degree angle, the distance from the support where you check the maximum shear is "d", where "d" is the depth of the beam / wall.  

For a relatively short wall with very high loading, ignoring this can cause an over-conservative design.  For a typically long beam, ignoring this doesn't make a big difference.

In your case, if you have a service pressure of 173 kN/m2 at the support, at a distance "d" = 0.6 m from the support (because d is the depth of your wall), the maximum service shear is:

V = pressure * (span / 2 - d) =
  = 175 kN / m * (2.5m / 2 - 0.6m) =
  = 113.75 kN

If you ignore this reduction, the service shear is:
V = pressure * (span / 2) =
  = 218.75 kN

As you can see, you'll get a big reduction.  As you reduce the wall thickness, make sure to redo the shear equation to account for a smaller "d".

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

I should add that I would still design the construction joint between the wall and the support for the full shear.  I like to provide a shear key but design the joint using shear friction.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

Aggieyank and JrStructuralEng:

I guess I am confused with the problem as I still read that the foundation is 12 meters below grade.  I do see the 2.5 meter dimemnsion too - about 10 feet - that is simply supported.  I guess that that is the problem span.  OK.  I am still amazed though about a 26" thick wall.  Still doesn't feel right.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

JrStructuralEngr,
I don't understand how you can have a wall that is about 12M below ground (at the bottom) and have a simple span of 2.5M. Are there vertical walls that are spaced 2.5M appart?
Reguarding your question about load factors, I would use code required 1.6 for the Live Load from the soil on the stem and 1.2 for the Dead Load of the soil on the heel & toe (if the wall has one).
I don't believe that the US codes, like ACI, ASCE7 or the IBC have any load factors of 1.25 or 1.5. Since you are using metric units maybe the Canadian or European code have different load factors.
Did your geotech give you any recommendations for what kind of loads you should use for seismic load to the wall?

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)
Hey Mike,  26" didn't seem right to me either, thats why I started this post.  However, its seems like others are finding something similar. By the way thanks for the post Aggie.

To clarify on that part your confused about.  Picture a simply supported ~8.5ft (or 2.5m) foundation wall, where the base of the wall is 40 ft (or 12m) below grade.  Now consider a lateral load on the wall of 100lbs/ft^3 (or 15.7kN/m^)

The foundation walls for the parkade are stepped. This is for a varitey of reasons, i.e. parking requirements and building size restrictions

Roof
-----|
4th  |-----------Grade
-----|
3rd  |
-----|
2nd |
-----|
Main|              Top =100lbs/ft3(31.5ft)(1ft)=3.15kips/ft
---------------|
Park            | <---wall in question
---------------|

                   Bottom = 100lbs/ft3*40ft*1ft= 4.0kips/ft

I get a specified shear of 17kips/ft at base or ~250kN/m

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)
OldPaperMaker your comment:

"I would use code required 1.6 for the Live Load from the soil on the stem and 1.2 for the Dead Load of the soil on the heel & toe (if the wall has one)."

I am using Canadian code.  What code are you finding 1.6 in?  And by stem i'm assuming you mean vertical portion of wall.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

JrStructuralEngr,
I am referring to ACI318-05.Equation 9-2 which is written as:
U=1.2D +1.6 (L+H)where L=live load & H=load due to lateral soil pressure.
This is the same load combination found in chapter 2 of ASCE7-05 & Section 1605 of the 2006 IBC.
These load factors were 1.4D & 1.7(L+H)in ACI 318-99. I don't remember the exact year that they changed to the current values.
Yes,I was referring to the vertical section of the wall when I used the term "stem". I was thinking like it was a cantilevered retaining wall.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

For load factors for soil, check the latest National Building Code of Canada, the Canadian Foundations Manual or even CSA S6-06 (the Canadian Bridge Code). Unless my memory fails me, all three give explicit values for load factors for both earth pressure and hydrostatic pressure (hopefully these loads are seperated in the geotech report).They may even be repeated in the concrete design manual.

Also, by Canadian Code, shear can no longer be taken at a distance equal to "d" from the support. The distance has been reduced to 0.9d or 0.72t (where t is the total thickness), whichever is greater. This is also the distance you are allowed to use to resist shear forces.

It may be worth chamfering the corners at the bottom of the wall. It's a safe assumption that there is clearance between the top of the floor and the bottom of any car bumper. If this is permitted you may be able to get sufficient width at the top and bottom to avoid shear reinforcing.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

JrStructuralEng:

I assume that you mean your lateral soil load is 100 psf/ft of wall height.  That load seems awful high to me - even more than water.  Does the wall see pressures from nearby buildings too?  Normal pressures would be in the range of 40 to 60 psf/ft of wall height.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

Mike,

Lateral loads from soil below the water table are always more than just equivalent loading from water, because you have both the hydrostatic pressure and the buoyant soil pressure.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

msquared

I have seen similar soil loads recently. Some areas in nearby deltas have soil like toothpaste. Get it wet and it flows like water, it's just heavier.

Anyway, back to the original poster. It seems at first glance that you are using the "simplified method" for shear resistance. If you are running the rebar full height and the wall is simply supported at the bottom you should be looking at the general method. The low strain will allow for higher concrete shear resistance.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

JrStructuralEng,

Sorry I didn't answer your question sooner.  The wall is just a vertical slab, so the reactions of the wall are supported by the floor slabs in the same manner that gravity loads of floors are supported by columns or walls.  You wouldn't support a slab on the very edge of a wall with just reinforcement to develop the shear, so I suggest the same philosophy should apply to the wall support by the slab.  In your case, the horizontal wall reactions are much greater than the vertical slab reactions, so should take precedence.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

the 100 psf for lateral load seems extremely high. Just because the material is below the water table does not mean you would have water pressure against the wall in the 100 psf load. Clays have undrained strenght that gradually transition to underained strength. In undrained loading, there is no computation of the water presure. with drained loading, there is a seperate load from the water and the soil. Further for shallow foundations, say 6 meters, the pressure is generally hydrostatic. For deeper cuts, it may not be as high, depending on method of construction. you need to review pressures with your geotech.
Vertical rebar can and does carry shear.
Water is evil. keep it away from your foundation somehow, even if it is with a drainage panel. Besure there is a place to which the water can drain.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

DRC1:

For subgrade (enclosed) structure, it is dangerous practice to mininize the effect of hydrostatic pressure without positive drainage system, no matter what type of soil encountered. Also, for basement wall, at rest pressure pressure shall be used.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)
gwynn - I will crack out the text books and try to remember general method

hokie - your meaning, it would only make sense to have thickening at the slab supports, just like you would thicken an area at a column for a floor loading with a drop panel.

DRC1 - I have talked to the geotech about this.  He states it is an equivilent fluid pressure taking into account both hydrostatic and soil loading.  If it was drained the report says it would be around ~60lbs/ft^3.  The values he gave us are very common loading conditions for this area. I agree we should use a drainage panel.  Thanks for the idea.  ***What do you mean by vertical rebar will, and does take shear?***  I thought shear reinforcing in a slab or wall was completely different.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

Agree with AggieYanks suggestion to calculate your shear at some distance above the base.

Your next option is to increase your concrete strength.  I'm guessing that you're using a 20 MPa mix.  With a 35 MPa mix, you should be able to get this wall down to 18 inches, without shear reinforcing.

Sounds as though your design water table is at ground level?  If that's the case, it seem like overkill to factor your wall pressures by 1.5.  Also,you may want to check buoyancy before you reduce your wall thickness.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

JrStructuralEngr,
I'm still curious about what is retaining the 31.5' of soil that is located above the 8.5'of "simple span" retaining wall at the parking level. Are the 4 floors of condos a reinforced concrete building that is designed to retain the soil on the right side of your cross section? (on your previous sketch)

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)
The building is set into a hill.  The wall restraining the rest of the soil (~30ft)is concrete, and has full height buttresses on the exterior that put a big bending moment into the parkade roof.  Keep in mind that the section I sketched is worst case, the grade is dramatically reduced as you move towards the front of building.  

Only the parkade floor and main floor are concrete.  The other floors are wood.

If your still confused perhaps I can send a sketch.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

JrStructuralEng,
Thanks. I think that now I get what's going on.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

Three more things from me:

1)  Disagree that all your problems with shear are solved by considering the shear at d from the support.  True, that is where the diagonal tension controls in the design models we use, and is where you should design your shear reinforcement in the form of stirrups.  But you still have the issue of direct sliding shear at the bottom and top joints, which is where I suggested relying on bearing of the wall against the slab rather than keys or shear friction.  At the bottom, you probably have a floor slab which can take the load, and at the top, the slab can be deepened in the vicinity of the wall to incorporate a bearing lug.

2)  You probably know this, but the global horizontal load on your building will be large, and the design of the overall building has to take this load.

3)  The "equivalent hydrostatic soil pressure" which the geotech has given you includes a component of water and a component of soil.  That is what I discussed before in recommending that you use the water as dead load and the buoyant soil pressure as live load.  After all, the density of water is well known.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)
I appreciate the post hokie.  Appriciated.  By bearing lug, you mean in order to prevent punching shear I am assuming.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

No, I am not talking about punching shear, which is the type of shear which occurs around a column or a concentrated load.  I am just referring to the horizontal reaction of the wall at the two concrete floors.  My suggestion was to take the load in bearing by keying in the full depth of the wall top and bottom.  In other words, the top of the lower slab would be say 75 mm above the bottom of the wall, and the bottom of the upper slab would be say 75 mm below the top of the wall, not necessarily for the entire slab, but for a decent width away from the wall.  A continuous drop panel if you like, but not continuous over the wall.

Looking again at your problem, since you are built into a hill, surely therely there will be the opportunity to drain the space above the main slab to the ends and around the sides, thus reducing the hydrostatic load.  The drainage would have to penetrate the buttresses, and the drainage system would have to be built so that it can never clog, but that should be achievable, and I would think the savings in the structure would pay for a blue ribbon drainage system.  As it is, the hydrostatic pressure has a big impact on the basement wall, the buttressed wall, the main slab, the parking level slab (hydrostatic uplift), and the columns which support the buttressed wall.

Rereading your posts, I now see that the upper floors are not concrete.  Do you have enough dead load to resist the hydrostatic uplift?  

 

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

(OP)

The entire structure will be supported by large cast-in-place concrete piles on concrete walls/grade beams with a minimum of 6" of void form between piles.  Does hydrostatic uplift still need to be considered?

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

shouldn't there be a Ka or Ko factor?

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

With the magnitude of pressure that the geotech has you designing your wall for, hydrostatic uplift is a real possibility.  (That's why I suggested you check buoyancy earlier in the thread.)  Ask your geotech if you need to design your base mat for hydrostatic uplift.  As someone else mentioned, with these driving pressures, you also need to check your overall resistance to sliding.

RE: Foundation Wall 40 Feet Below Grade

For your original 15.7 kN/m3 "equivalent fluid pressure", there would have to be a large component of hydrostatic pressure.  If the hydrostatic pressure acts on the wall, it acts on the slab as well.  The void would simply fill up with water, and the uplift would have to be resisted by the mass of the structure combined with the tensile capacity of the piles, and the ground slab would have to be designed to resist this loading.  I think you need to query the geotech in more depth to determine realistic design pressures.  Built into a hillside, as I discussed previously, it is hard to see how you would get this much pressure at the bottom.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources