$2500 Car
$2500 Car
(OP)
Now this is what I call the future of engineering.
http://www.news.com/2300-11389_3-6225465-1.html
A $2500 car.
http://www.news.com/2300-11389_3-6225465-1.html
A $2500 car.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: $2500 Car
It is interesting to note that, with a quick glance, the logo on the hood is very similar to that of Toyota, but dissimilar. Kind of like the fiasco a few years ago where some products were labled, "Made in USA", as opposed to "Made in the USA. They were actually made out of the country, in the "country" of USA. No lie.
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
Worrying about greenhouse/CO2 emissions is a rich person's conceit.
Also bear in mind that the gains in going from 50 mpg to 70 mpg are much smaller than those in going from 30 to 50.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: $2500 Car
By the way, Greg is right. When computing the carbon footprint, it is about lifetime costs from manufacture to recycling at the end of life, not just fuel economy. I'd like to bet that these cars will be used till they literally fall apart.
It is an interesting conflict between safety and environment. Many older cars were caused to be scrapped even though they had many more functional years left in them by changes in legislation. Incidentally, in France this meant the demise of some of the more desirable old Citroens, amongst others.
Interesting would be to compute the optimum lifetime/mileage for cars; the break-even point at which further use of a less efficient car is no longer balanced by the manufacturing/recycling costs.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: $2500 Car
Cradle to grae analysis is incredibly difficult to do well, it is very easy to bias the result by your prejudices, witness the recent one that demonstrated that a Hummer was greener than a Prius.
Perhaps 1% of the money currently being wasted on climate change analysis could usefully be diverted towards answering your question. Fat chance.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: $2500 Car
Much like the Yugo:)
Regards,
Mike
RE: $2500 Car
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: $2500 Car
For safety on the roads though, I've always advocated having a huge spike coming from the steering wheel aimed at the centre of your chest. Might make the boy racers and BMW drivers think twice about being 2 foot from your back-side going down the motorway when I slam the brakes on.
corus
RE: $2500 Car
- Steve
RE: $2500 Car
As for all new types of cars with fantastic fuel mileage, their use will totally scramble the means for financing road repair and construction, which basically explains the new propsoal to increase the US fuel gas tax by another $0.40 / gal. Some sort of add'l registration fee would likely need to be added to electric cars that primarily run on battery charge- although they still use the roads, they don't pay for them via the fuel tax.
When it comes to avoiding taxes, there is no free lunch- last weeks paper had an article about another greenie that was fined megabuck for running his diesel on french fry oil without paying the fuel use tax.
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
I think that increasing the gas tax is something that should definately be done in the USA, at the moment it is not sufficient to cover all the costs associated with vehicle use. It is also the only way to encourage drivers to buy fuel efficient cars.
Youngturk,
The oil reserves are only an issue because the USA has used so much of it! It is a bit selfish to complain when other countries want to use their share.
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
Personally I think the future is in the compressed air car (http://www.theaircar.com/). As well as being 'green' it also has the advantage that when it runs out of air then you can hook your mother-in-law up in the back seat and tell her to blow. Should keep the old bag quiet for a while.
corus
RE: $2500 Car
http:
and
http:
Seems the overall trend is downward since 1980, HOWEVER, price spikes since 2005 have created parity with prices (inflation adjusted) at that point, which I believe was the high water mark for adjusted gas prices.
A gas price increase from $3 to $5 over five years requires an average increase of 10-11% per year, well and above inflation. Given current record inflation adjusted gas prices, $5 in 2013 would be greatly exceed any previous inflation adjusted gas prices, which is liable to create some serious economic impact.
RE: $2500 Car
As the price of gas goes up, in theory the demand should drop, not factoring in the effects of India and China. Should be interesting to watch.
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: $2500 Car
In the UK, the price of the oil is a relatively small proportion of the total cost of petrol/gas at the pump, the rest is tax. So while prices there have gone up due to oil price increses as a % of total cost it's a lot less than in the US.
Let me put it this way. Gas prices at the pump in the UK haven't roughly double over the last 4 years like they have in the US (at least my part).
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: $2500 Car
I love my long car trips, but ....
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm17.htm
It's a bit old and I haven't checked its accuracy but it gives some idea. Obviously the price of oil increases recently make the blue portion a lot bigger now than in 2004 but it still gives some idea of the ratio of tax.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: $2500 Car
1.25x 3.8 = 4.75EUR X(1 EUR = 1.46696 USD) =6.96808 USD/Gal
Thats a kick to the nuts....
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
by the way is "gas" the name for both petrol and diesel?
RE: $2500 Car
In the US at least we say gas meaning gasoline or petrol and refer to diesel as diesel. Current prices here in Wisconsin are about $3.10 gas (minimum octane/regular) and $3.40 diesel. Are you in the UK Ussuri?
RE: $2500 Car
Diesel is Diesel, NAFTA
RE: $2500 Car
http://w
http://
msquared48
Its genuine and truely Indian Brand. Tata's have last year bought Corus. And this is not meant for the US market, obviously.
jmw
Its TATA and not Tatra.
davefitz
I do not agree on huge increase in demand. Basicaly if this car is owned it will be for the basic need of transportation for a middle and lower class family. So in fact this car may replace a two wheeler used for the same purpose. And given the manufacturing capacity (just 250 000 in first two years) I doubt one will see "huge" increase as you say.
And I was reading somewhere and some analyst has said that the company has to wait minimum for two years to break even or more to see profits.
regards.
Siddharth.
Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.
RE: $2500 Car
Remember, Ford didn't invent the car, he just invented the first mass produced car. Only 750 Model A's were produced in 1903-1904. 70,000 Model Ts were sold in 1911.
(Referenced Wikipedia)
How long before Asia overtakes America?
RE: $2500 Car
Competition in the global market is inevitable and so the affordable prices as a result. So would you be happy to see the car prices lowered or not?
Very soon Asia can overtake as soon as the sales in USA or Western EU drops to half(as per the ref you gave). I couldnt understand your take on this.
1 person x more than 1 car = luxury
1 family x 1 car = necessity
with this equation one can understand the sales trend you have explained.
Regards
Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.
RE: $2500 Car
When the imperative is to be able to transport yourself and family, the most basic, reliable means is what will sell.
The Model T has been mentioned, in the UK it was probably the Austin Seven. Even in their time, these vehicles would be criticised as crude and unrefined -- just as many criticise the Nano, but they sold. Why, because transportation was the need. To get about. To move people. To move things.
Bill
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
Thanks for your write up, may be I wasnt able to put the message clearly. I remember the days when I was very young and we four, my dad, mother, my elder brother and myself used to travel on a scooter. Its still the same in India. Its fun rather.
There may be a debate on how much safety is safe and same time practical/economical? Even Princess Diana had to suffer with the high tech vehicle she was in during the accident. I doubt if anyone can make human life or other being, safe from everything.
regards
Below is the excerpt fromt the interview of Mr Ratan Tata, Chairman of Tata Group.
htt
"The Tatas and you, in particular, are on the brink of realising a long-cherished ambition. Do you feel vindicated? Are you apprehensive?"
There has always been some sort of unconscious urge to do something for the people of India and transport has been an area of interest. As urbanisation gathers pace, personal transport has become a big issue, especially since mass transport is often not available or is of poor quality. Two-wheelers — with the father driving, the elder child standing in front and the wife behind holding a baby — is very much the norm in this country. In that form two-wheelers are a relatively unsafe mode of transporting a family. The two-wheeler image is what got me thinking that we needed to create a safer form of transport.
Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.
RE: $2500 Car
The fig 2 commentary says:
This is quite obviously a nonsense.
If the only factor affecting economic competitiveness were fuel costs it could be true. But if it were true then the other countries quoted would have had to take action to restore their own competitiveness. Indeed, market forces would have forced a levelling out of fuel prices within western economies some decades ago.
Fig 3 tells a story that says where you have long distances to drive, high tax burdens cannot be sustained. It is less about economic competitiveness probably than domestic driving issues.
Sid7:
Ah but it isn't a global market, is it?
Note how standards vary from one country to another such that the Car you buyin the Uk has a different set of brakes, lights etc than the version you buy in the US and look what the US lighting requirements did to the E-type design.
Each market enjoys some protection and the success of Japan over the years in blocking foreign car sales while selling its own cars worldwide shows how the game can be played.
I suspect there is no danger of the Tata (thanks Sid7) being sold into any of the "protected" markets any time soon. Anyway, if this car did reach the UK, say, then you can bet it would carry at least a £7-8k price tag.
This is a car for the domestic market. It should be judged as such.
It must represent a significant advance on all those heavy Morris Oxfords, Cambridges etc with their primitive brakes and well suited to the domestic market in terms of cost of ownership, maintenance etc..
I hesitate to suggest it will create a vast expansion in fuel use when in fact it may displace some old and inefficient gas guzzling museum pieces.
I also doubt that a significant proportion of the road system would sustain high speed driving or if it did, safety might probably be expected to be better than currently, except that driving would appear to be conducted with greater regard for karma than hydraulic dual circuit power assisted disc brakes or whether they work or not (this is the only country in the world where my wife managed to have a proper wreck, and woke up in hospital as a result, despite the competition from a fair selection of the East Block countries, Turkey, Iran and Iraq. She had made the drive from Berlin in a VW Thing. Pretty adventurous huh? or just her lousy map reading and she was really headed for Potsdam? I dare not ask, this was before we met.)
PS,
Corus,
Smart cars not for you?
Come on, these are a funky Mercedes built in Munich aren't they? and they fairly zip along the motorways (at above the legal limit).
I quite like them but I am not sure I'd fit in one and I suspect that I'd destroy the Power to weight ratio anyway.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: $2500 Car
Thanks jmw for the post. Well this car aint aimed at global market. And my comment is in particular response to YoungTurk's equivalent us dollar car price statement.
Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.
RE: $2500 Car
I've seen a few items on other sites discussing the Nano. A whole lot of people in 'the west' just don't get it, as we say.
Bill
RE: $2500 Car
Only the time would prove the worthiness of a creative techonological economic means of transport from a committed business group to fulfil the promise made to the common public.
IMHO, Tata is an invaluable heritage to India and many Indians would trust in their effort without doubt.
Best regards.
Siddharth
These are my personal views/opinions and not of my employer's.
RE: $2500 Car
Hg
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RE: $2500 Car
Maybe then, the price of Jags will also come down!
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: $2500 Car
Negotiations have, apparently, entered a final stage.
Ford initally said that a final bidder was going to be nominated last October, so the process is a couple of months later than originally set.
Interestingly, a review of the Tata website reveals the dealership cover that Tata has. Nothing is shown for the USA, so, if the purchase goes through, Tata will get a small, but ready-made, dealer network in critical areas of the US via existing Jag & LR outlets, I presume.
US and European business should also acjknowledge that the Nano is but one facet of Tatas empire which, I believe already produces a significant volume of commercial vehicles in addition to other passenger cars and pickups.
Bill
RE: $2500 Car
I don't really have a "take" except that I believe there will be drastic increases in the number of cars on Asian roads and a correlated increase in demand for gasoline (and raw materials). Whether or not I'm happy to see these cheap cars available isn't really relevant. Its not necessary to discuss approval or disapproval of a trend to predict or identify it. I just think that is "where engineering is going in the next 5 years," like the forum says.
That being said, my opinion is that I'd like to see a global reduction in demand for fossil fuels. And although western countries certainly have used more than our fair share, it would seem high population density Asian countries without a developed automobile system are the preferred place to change the paradigm of transportation. Unfortunately, social and economic forces (including my own) do not always allow the theoretical best situation. (Yes I'm a commuter).
JMW puts it quite well as to the significant differences between North American and European or Asian transportation realities. Simply said, our economy is built around the ability to transport goods and labor over large distances cheaply. I've met European tourists baffled at the idea that they can't do a driving tour of the US on a one or two week vacation.
RE: $2500 Car
From what I've seen outside the US, there are many places where a car is not required. But the lowering of the cost of a car will increase the number of commuers in those countries.
This will lead to many problems unforseen by most of the population. And it is our place to look at those issues and develop new ideas.
The cheep car is a tool, which will become a problem, as it's use will be to cover another problem. The lack of good mass transporation.
I rode the trains in Newark once, but for the cost, I would probally drive if I lived there.
RE: $2500 Car
It would cost me c. £80 (or more) to drive to my mother's house and back. A coach costs less than £50. That's £30 of booze for the trip
- Steve
RE: $2500 Car
Besides the drive to my mother's house is 5 hours. Consiter that there are no passenger trains, or busses here. A plane would take several connections and take much longer.
And I'm back to my point of lack of good mass transportation.
So here I am with a car valued at about $2500, and with 150000 miles on it, and an EPA estimated 30 MPG rating.
RE: $2500 Car
- Steve
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
I guess the thumb still works, but were back to the car again.
RE: $2500 Car
I bought a full sized pickup last spring when my old job required I carry an extension ladder from time to time. Now I wish I had a little car to get around.
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: $2500 Car
However, it isn't long distance public transport that we need to sort out.
It isn't the connection between one city and the next we need to worry about but local travel, journeys of a mile or two.
The real focus should be on local loops. All those short distance journeys from home to the shops etc. If you want to tackle that then you could make a serious dent in the pollution problems.
It isn't easy to get people out of their cars when they travel long distances but it should be possible to target the short journeys and these make up a substantial proportion of all car use... one indicator is in the accidents statistics which show most accidents happen within a mile or two of home.... high frequency short journeys, least fuel efficient and most polluting.
But most public transport entails transient services that pass through and by and not a local loop only service. If we can justify the tax spend on some of the things they waste money on then we can afford it here. We need electric buses every 5-10 minute, free and with a boarding platform for rapid getting on and off.
Create a local service that links all the main nodes and make it more convenient than the car. Bus lanes, sensor controlled lights, priority for buses and traffic behaviour as per school buses.
Here's a target:
max 5 minutes walk, max 5 minute wait and max 5 minute journey.
Use planning laws to cut down on superstore parking allowances. Instead of them bribing their way to planning permission with new sports centres and fact finding tours for the local councillors, make them provide minimum level local bus buses.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: $2500 Car
Years ago I lived 3 blocks from a grocery store, and they were not happy with there carts leaving there parking lot.
An inexpencive rechargable car would work well here.
But I see only the gas car that fits that description.
There is a good point I see here; why can't mass transit be based somewhat around school transport?
RE: $2500 Car
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG:Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: $2500 Car
Bill
RE: $2500 Car
RE: $2500 Car
The city I live in was going to get major money 15 yrs ago to extend the subway, but the rich suburban people did not want (There are recordings of the town hall meets with very bad words on them) poor people taking the train to the suburbs and steeling stuff...
I have to laugh because of the logic, so someone is going to take a train, steel your TV, then carry it to the train and ride the train with a TV….and manage to avoid the cops, train ticketing people, all the video cameras at the stations.
Ironically, most of the current crime in my city has been caused by suburban Anglo-Saxon upper middle class teens….
RE: $2500 Car
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: $2500 Car
Sorry to Ashereng for going so far off topic.
By the way, there have been some very interesting BBC programs on the Indian Railway system recently, looking at the services and the lives of the people who depend on the railways for a living.....
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com