BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
(OP)
What does everyone think about the upcoming requirement to have a BS Eng degree + 30 credit hours in order to sit for the PE exam? As a new PE (passed last April), I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. It seems like a pretty big change.





RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I'm with TheTick, what state requires this? And what does that mean for commity?
--Scott
http://wertel.eng.pro
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
For me, this requirement would be no problem, but the ramifications for many others are interesting to say the least. Seems like extra "time in grade" so to speak above the four years experience would, or should suffice for the older ones of us. But, who am I to say.
Extra information on the particulars would be nice.
Mike McCann
McCann Engineering
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
"The 2007 NCEES Annual Meeting was held August 21-26, 2007 in Philadelphia, PA. The Bachelor of Science plus 30 additional semester hours (BS + 30) requirement for licensure was discussed extensively. A motion to rescind the requirement failed to pass by a larger margin than it passed by at the 2006 NCEES Meeting. This indicates growing support for the measure. Details of what will be required in the additional 30 hours are still being developed."
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Why is my handle 65Roses?
Please visit http://www.cff.org/aboutCFFoundation/About65Roses/ to learn why!
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The April, 2007 newsletter has some clarification language http
On page 6 of the December, 2007 NCEES Newsletter http
A couple of the other newsletters talk about the declining performance of engineering schools (both decreasing the number of hours required for a BS and increasing the non-technical courses required), and instead of a campaign to fix the system they want to make post-BS education mandatory. It is kind of like PDH on steroids.
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Maybe you could add a continuing education requirement to the EIT license, where you could get your hours lots of different ways.
It doesn't matter to me personally, because I have a master's degree. But I don't think a candidate needs graduate level classes to be a PE.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
And if they're going to go this route, why not go (back) to 5-year undergrad programs?
Hg
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RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.
WWW.amlinereast.com
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
What scares me is that the vast majority of engineers never take the PE exam so is NCEES really just accepting that most engineers will be inadequately educated according to what NCEES considers to be objective standards? This is a very scary direction for the industry to take.
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
"What would raise my pay as a PE? I've got it... decrease supply of PEs to increase demand. We could make it harder, more time consuming and more expensive if we require 30 extra credit hrs to sit for the exam. That should deter some folk from even considering taking the test."
I work in an industrial factory, so having a PE didn't help me out much. However, since I qualified to take the exam, I took it anyway(passed on 1st attempt). If I would have beeen required to have 30 more credit hrs, I don't think I would have even considered it.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
One guy filled two pages with his reminiscences of starting engineering school (I think he said in the '50s) and the dean doing the old chestnut of "look at the guy on your right ... only one of you will be here at the end". Then he went on to say that "in his day" you needed 145 hours to get a BS and no more than 20 of the hours could be from outside of engineering (I guess math, Chemistry, and Physics were in the engineering departments back then) and now it is less than 120 total hours and 45 of those must be outside of engineering. His conclusion was that new graduates today are simply unprepared to assume the prestigious mantel of "PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER". It was truly garbage, but he sure sounded sincere.
Anyone who is outraged over this (I have both my PE and MS so it doesn't affect my life) should get involved with NCEES.
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
As zdas points out, some of what is considered outside of engineering today was apparently not back then (or else there is no way to have only 15 credits outside of engineering. Just calc I & II, matrices, diff. eq. would suck up that 15 and leave no space for chem, physics (and let's not forget the dreaded humanities and english classes.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
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RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
If the goal is to require more engineering classes then have ABET increase their required amount of hours. Or have schools reduce general education hours that only exist to fund programs that do not have enough students to survive on their own.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Also, what will become of the bachelor in engineering? Will this be phased out in the long run and become a "pre-engineering" degree like the "pre-med" degree. NCEES appears to have washed their hands of ABET. Clearly, the NCEES does not believe that the undergraduate degree is sufficient to practice engineering. Maybe this is a good thing in the long run.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
So it might be a good idea to go ahead a get registered in all the states you expect to practice.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I have met a number of masters degree people who had no common sense at all and were actually poor engineers.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The people at NCEES perceive a failure in the education provided by ABET-accredited engineering schools. They also think that adding 30 hours of post BS will "fix" this. I disagree, but I didn't participate in the committee work that led to the change in the Model Law. Reading through the NCEES newsletters (that any of us could have looked at over the last few years), the opinions in this thread might have been influential, but they weren't heard.
I think rbcoulter has the "grandfathering" issue right--existing registrations will almost certainly be grandfathered (possibly with some changes in the PDH rules), but it might be really hard for a grandfathered PE to get reciprocity into another state.
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
There will even be cases of engineers who were "model law" under the old standard who may not be able to register in the state they are relocating. For example, Florida tends to adopt the model law so I would expect them to be one of the first to implement it. Now, let's say you are a practicing engineer in New York and retiring to Florida. Even with an ABET accredited engineering degree, passing both FE and PE exams, and experience out the ying yang you would not be allowed to practice in Florida (if they adopt the new model law). It seems to me that they ought to "grandfather" model law status to prevent this.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I think most here will agree that balancing a molarity equation doesn't make an competant engineer, its the ability to understand when and where you need to balance the equation.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
What is the incentive for college students to enroll in engineering?
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Hg
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RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
There is no need for a structural guy to take waste water management
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
For example, I took fluids as at 3 credit hrs with a 4 hr long lab season and was very happy with my C+
Then I took intro to architecture for 4 credit hrs, 3 other engineering friends of mine sat in the back and did our homework for heat transfer or read the newspaper… and ace’d the class.
The quality of education is very relative, and my hardest professor always said... their are people that make it through the system, but you can only fool so many people, especially when there is money involved. If you’re honest and work hard, the cream always rises to the top.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The problem is the proposed solution. By stating that minimum education requirements is ABET BS + 30 implies that ALL those who have only ABET BS may not be eligible to get an engineering license regardless of what tests they have passed & experience they already have. If the problem is the ABET engineering program going deficient at some point (say between 1950 and 2012), why not define that as the cutoff point? For example, say that all engineering ABET degrees after 2010 will need the additional 30 to apply for an engineering license. Or why not correct this through ABET? Also, graduate engineering school, historically, emphasizes engineering research as opposed to engineering practice so it doesn't seem like the appropriate remedy to me.
It seems as those the bulk of potential engineering license applicants are getting punished because of weakening ABET standards (which practicing engineers do not control) in recent years. Is that fair?
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I had to take a class on the sociology of small groups as it pertained to engineering, because the feed back from “the field and big companies” was that too many engineers where not good in social situations. The professor complained how stupid the course was because it was obviously taking away from “engineering”.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The incentive of "liking it" has not been working if you look at the number of graduates coming out versus the number firms looking to hire.
So now we are going to tell a prospective engineering student that in order to sit for your P.E. exam a B.S. degree isn't worth a thing? Only a stepping stone? Give me a break.
By forcing people to basically have a masters degree to get a Stamp you will drain the pool of prospective engineers even further.
The board is absolutely wrong on this one. A B.S. degree from an ABET acredited school plus the 4 years of experience is fine. A degree is only a learning permit - it's the experience you get on the job that makes you an engineer.
I guess I'm a bit biased on this as I "ONLY" have a B.S. degree but seem to be doing just fine after over 13 years of experience.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Not that I'm saying the extra year of school is the best solution, just that it's not all that bad.
Hg
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RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I think you say that "an extra year of school won't be that much of a deterrent" as if only kids going to college right out of high school should be afforded the opportunity.
There are plenty of engineers (myself included) who had to work their way through college while supporting a family.
I can say very confidently that an extra year (2-3 years when going part time) would have been a huge deterrent.
Maybe to the profession as a whole (for kids coming right out of high school) it wouldn't be much of a deterrent, but you would be alienating a huge pool of potential candidates.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The new NCEES rules that have been discussed here are inconsistent with the perspective expressed by the state agency I had to deal with. It appears that if these new rules are adopted by the states then engineers will have to take steps toward earning an advanced degree such as a Master's degree in the future if they expect to be allowed to earn their PE. My own experience in going through this process makes it very clear to me that the state board in New York considers advanced education in engineering to be essentially worthless.
Maui
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
If this MS requirement catches on, it will be interesting to see if there are any changes to how accreditation is handled with regard to graduate programs.
On the subject of deterrents and number of years of school--if number of years of school were the only factor, we would have no doctors, no lawyers, no architects.
Hg
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RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Hg
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RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Your example of the welders at Hyundai is great - except for the issue that companies set wages and don't have a say in the standards the NCEES sets. Eventually salaries may come around if the shortage of engineers continued, but maybe not.
The example of doctors and lawyers isn't fair as coming out of school, both of those professions can expect to make twice to three times the salary of an engineer.
If NCEES doesn't think the B.S. degree is sufficient anymore they should address the ABET accrededation process and start putting institutions on probation and/or recommending changes to the programs to bring them back in line with expectations. Don't make the student suck up the extra cost and time to join the work force - that's not fixing the problem simply shifting the blame.
If an ABET acredited B.S. degree was fine 10, 15, 20+ years ago, why should it not be ok now? Hold the Colleges and Universities accountable.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The Colorado School of Mines reports that 100% of 2007 Petroleum Engineering grads got job offers with an average BSPE Starting salary $70k (http://www.mines.edu/Academic/petroleum/).
Makes you wonder about the statement
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
UK: http://www.onrec.com/content2/news.asp?ID=12540
"Engineering again proves the most highly paid graduate profession, with an average starting salary of £21,681 - 7% above average graduate pay. "
USA: h
Engineers median 55, legal, 40 (by eyeball)
Australia: http://www
Engineers 40-63 law 41 medicine 48
So, two or three times?
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
That very same link also has the average STARTING salary for all lawyers (in all firms) at 95K. That is right around double what an engineer starts at.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The US Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm) shows a table of the 2007 average starting salary for various flavors of engineer--Agricultural, Architectural. and Environmental were under $50k, Petroleum was over $60k. I guess you can call that half what the average attorney makes, and I'm pretty sure that the top 5% of lawyers start higher than the top 5% of engineers.
My point is that a high-quality Engineer willing to move to a crappy location can make about the same as a lawyer willing to go where the work is (which tends to be high-cost metro areas). Most ABET engineering schools brag about getting offers for all of their graduates, Law Schools don't make that claim.
I've never felt underpaid, nor have I envied lawyers for their compensation.
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
You don't have to be a certain kind of lawyer willing to move to a crappy location to make the 95k. That is the average starting slaary for ALL lawyers. That is well above the average starting salary for all engineers. I was making 65k/year in manufacturing before I finished school to be an engineer. That doesn't mean that manufacturing is a lucrative as engineering.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I am in the structural field (not a dying industry) and live/work in a suburb of one of the 7 largest cities and I started out at a little better than half of that 95k. I work for a very well-known and respected firm on the east coast so I am not with a lower-paying small firm.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
The timing has stretched to 2020 because they know there are still issues to be worked out. I'm not sure it will be implemented this year. The engineering community is divided mainly because of the lack of clarity. What constitutes the additional 30 hours? (would an MBA be acceptable?) How would commity be handled?
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Doesn't that say that if you are licensed in any of the 50 states that the other states have to give "full faith and credit" to the license? If I live in New Mexico, then I need to have a New Mexico drivers licence and I have a New Mexico PE. If I establish residence in Texas, then it makes sense that I should apply for a Texas PE, but as long as I live in New Mexico shouldn't my license be good in all 50 states?
I wonder if this has ever been tested in the courts. Have I been wasting time and money on that pesky NCEES Council Record?
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
http://www.licensingreform.org/index.html
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
For the medical professions I can see it working well (a human body in California is much like one in Florida). For engineers (especially Civil and Structural), I can see the states standing behind their "we have different needs" argument (snow loading in Montana, earthquakes in California, hurricanes on the gulf coast). I don't know how you get around that.
David
David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
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The harder I work, the luckier I seem
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Zdas, What you are saying about the different requirements between states, such as earthquakes and floods, is more of an ethics issue then Licensing issue. Regardless of the location if a person is not qualified to work on a project, they are not qualified.
Isn't the professional obligated to know his limitations and what projects they are qualified to work on?
For example, a Mechanical engineer in New Orleans LA. is (probably) not qualified for flood control/ prevention and environmental engineering within the same city.
So why not have a country wide, PE?
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
David
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I don't see in the proposed NCEES rules where it says you can't take the FE test after earning a BS, be working, and take classes toward the 30-hr requirement? To me the worst of this would be the postponing of the FE exam. I believe the Pass rate for the FE drops dramatically with the number of yrs out of school.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
http
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Syl.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
I also have a problem with CEU's. I have learned much more from real world circumstances than from any contrived CEU class, thankfully my State does not require them.
Put NCEES out to pasture.
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
Don Phillips
http://worthingtonengineering.com
RE: BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement)
David